Has anyone here heard anything official from BlackMagic when/if the HV20 will be supported? I'm starting to wonder if I should return the card and HDMI cables I bought while I still can...

Blackmagic told me they have not tested the camera yet, not very official but I'm sure they wouldn't mind me passing that along. The theory is that it is an HDCP issue, perhaps Canon has HDCP turned on and that's why it will only capture to 480i. Somehow I don't think it's going to work anytime soon. Bummer.

What/why would Canon turn HDCP on (if this is what's causing it, in theory)? To either:

a) Prevent people from using this camera instead of buying the XL H1

OR

b) To allow the footage to play on an HDCP complient system? (I don't know enough about HDCP at all.. this is a guess..)

OR

c) Other reasons?

Blackmagic told me they have not tested the camera yet, not very official but I'm sure they wouldn't mind me passing that along. The theory is that it is an HDCP issue, perhaps Canon has HDCP turned on and that's why it will only capture to 480i. Somehow I don't think it's going to work anytime soon. Bummer.

Thanks Wes. This may be something Canon would have to address in a firmware update. It would be very disappointing not to be able to use the HDMI for capture. Not to mention even just using my computer screen as a shooting monitor. This was definitely a selling point for me in choosing this camera. Do you think it would do any good to run the signal through a HDCP signal stripper? I remember seeing some on the net awhile back.

Thanks Wes. This may be something Canon would have to address in a firmware update. It would be very disappointing not to be able to use the HDMI for capture. Not to mention even just using my computer screen as a shooting monitor. This was definitely a selling point for me in choosing this camera. Do you think it would do any good to run the signal through a HDCP signal stripper? I remember seeing some on the net awhile back.

You should be able to connect it to any HDMI HDCP-compatible display and see the 1080i, you just can't capture it. Again, the HDCP thing is just an assumption, it might not be the problem.

We could always buy the Intensity Pro card which is $100.00 more but also captures from component. Until the HDMI thing gets fixed you could capture via component for almost the same level of quality. Having component may also be nice if you have any older HDV cameras or want to capture from older HD devices.

You should be able to connect it to any HDMI HDCP-compatible display and see the 1080i, you just can't capture it. Again, the HDCP thing is just an assumption, it might not be the problem.

According to the manual, not necessarily. Here's what it says:

Page 69
"Correct operations cannot be guaranteed when connecting the camcorder to DVI monitors."

And more ominous:

"Some HDTV's have their HDCP digital content protection configured so as not to allow the playback of personal content (video recorded for personal uses). If you cannot play back the video recorded with this camcorder on your HDTV using the HDMI connection, try connecting the camcorder using the video component connection -1connection type- instead."

It would be very disappointing not to be able to use the HDMI for capture. Not to mention even just using my computer screen as a shooting monitor. This was definitely a selling point for me in choosing this camera. Do you think it would do any good to run the signal through a HDCP signal stripper? I remember seeing some on the net awhile back.

Use fire wire for capture, it makes no difference, you don't need HDMI for capture.

Use fire wire for capture, it makes no difference, you don't need HDMI for capture.

Harm, how is capturing a live HDMI feed and avoiding HDV compression not a difference? If you mean capturing footage already recorded to tape then yes, you are correct, there is no difference. But that's not why people want this card and that's not how this card is being marketed. That's not what the Intensity is about.

Derek,

I just made one assumption too much, assuming you are using a camera, that is a lightweight, highly mobile one and not directly a studio camera in the field, instead of in a studio. I have seen so many posts about people assuming that the HDMI connection 'by definition' means uncompressed 4:2:2 streams, that I guessed wrong. You are absolutely correct for studio work, where you can lug your workstation, keyboard and monitor to attach to your camera, even if you have no real maneuverability with the short HDMI cable, you benefit from the HDMI connection.

Just out of curiosity, how - in practical terms - would you weigh that advantage of unplugging all connections on your workstation, load it, including monitor, keyboard, external raid array, etc. in your car, drive to a studio 50 miles away, set it all up again, connect it to a 10 feet HDMI cable and shoot with this camera, losing all mobility? After the shoot you have to pack it all again, drive back and re-install your workstation. This does not make much sense to me. It does make sense if you have a studio with your workstation permanently installed. Please enlighten me. Thanks.

Honestly, I'm not sure why someone would want to go through all that trouble you've described. I guess it could be done if the person was willing to put a little effort into it. Personally, my studio is in my home, so I don't have to move any of my equipment. So mobility isn't really an issue for me. If I want to shoot outdoors, I shoot to tape.

Derek, that clears it up. Thanks. Hope that Cineform will shortly update their drivers.

According to the manual, not necessarily. Here's what it says:

Page 69
"Correct operations cannot be guaranteed when connecting the camcorder to DVI monitors."

And more ominous:

"Some HDTV's have their HDCP digital content protection configured so as not to allow the playback of personal content (video recorded for personal uses). If you cannot play back the video recorded with this camcorder on your HDTV using the HDMI connection, try connecting the camcorder using the video component connection -1connection type- instead."

I want to beat HDCP to a bloody pulp. I hope my sudden violent tendency does not offend anyone. DRM, I'm so glad it's here to "manage our rights".

Intensity Pro sounds like a pretty good deal though.

There is no HDCP encryption on the HV20 HDMI output. If the HDMI handshake with the target device succeeds, the camera generates an unencrypted 1080i YCrCb (444) signal in HDV mode or 480i (576i) in DV mode. If not, the output defaults to DVI RGB 480p (576p). BM supports RGB (444) or YCrCb (422) only.

Btw: The HD-Connect MI HDMI to SDI converter now operates correctly with the HV20 (FW 1.37).

I want to beat HDCP to a bloody pulp. I hope my sudden violent tendency does not offend anyone. DRM, I'm so glad it's here to "manage our rights".

Intensity Pro sounds like a pretty good deal though.

If my violent tendency towards HDCP is used in co-operation with yours, do you think it would bring it all to a crumbled end? *hopes*

I wanted a BM Intensity card to cap HV20 style before-hdv compression and gaming footage from PlayStaion 3's HDMI port. But i can cap neither! The PS3 doesnt even turn "off" CP when its in the menu's and games and turn it on for just movies (which would be fine!). #$%$#% :(

As far as I know BlackMagic are in Melbourne, right? So maybe that's why they haven't been able to test the HV20, as they've only just become available here.

As far as I know BlackMagic are in Melbourne, right? So maybe that's why they haven't been able to test the HV20, as they've only just become available here.

Some good news to report. They now have a HV20 for testing and are investigating. As Heinz stated, Convergent got their HD-Connect working with it so it shouldn't be a HDCP issue. It'll probably be a little while but I have faith BM will eventually be able to update their drivers for the card to make it work. *X-fingers*

Hi guys,

Yes, we're gotten hold of the camera and are looking into it. Some of our guys are still over in the US and will be back really soon and it's something we're jumping onto. In fact, we were trying to buy this camera in Vegas before we left but that did not work out so things got delayed by a bit.

Thanks for the very positive response from Blackmagic (Kristan Lam), I for one am waiting for a positive answer about the Intensity card before purchasing the HV20.

Bob Thompson

Hong Kong

Thanks for the very positive response from Blackmagic (Kristan Lam), I for one am waiting for a positive answer about the Intensity card before purchasing the HV20.

Bob Thompson

Hong Kong

I second that. Once I here you guys support it, I am buying both the HV20 camera and the Intensity card. :-)

Intensity Option #2

The NEW version, with Component In (as well the existing HDMI).

I have a Decklink HD Extreme, the higher end cousin (w/o HDMI) and I just captured some beautiful Uncompressed HD live to my Mac Pro today.

Component HD video is a very real, very professional method, and totally an option now. If I didn't have my current card, I'd order the new Intensity today.

I second that. Once I here you guys support it, I am buying both the HV20 camera and the Intensity card. :-)

Ditto :)


If what Robert Ducon says is true, i will buy that one if its not to expensive compared to the HDMI only card. As i havent purchased mine yet. *goes to their website to check it out* :)

PS. Wow its an aussie card! I didnt know that. AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE! Kristian, thanks for your comments! Very Nice.

Hi guys,

Yes, we're gotten hold of the camera and are looking into it. Some of our guys are still over in the US and will be back really soon and it's something we're jumping onto. In fact, we were trying to buy this camera in Vegas before we left but that did not work out so things got delayed by a bit.

Yes. Thank you for that initial information.

I already have the Intensity card and my HV20 was just delivered yesterday evening. I bought it, in large part, specifically to use as an HDMI feeder deck.

If I had seen this thread subject, I wouldn't have ordered the HV20.

I hope you'll use this thread and/or forum for further updates on the situation.

It sure does exist! Intensity Pro.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Look: HDMI isn't the only option! Now you can import footage from any other HD source as well as NTSC (for those old Hi8 and VHS tapes you wanted to convert to digital).

Also, if it is true that HDCP is the cause for the problem, then it can only be assumed this is the way that most new cameras will be, and so Component will be the only option then. So.

So this new Intensity Pro is the best deal out there! Best you don't just rely on the HDMI option. Show me another card that does HDMI and Component uncompressed for the same price point of $349 US.

I checked out the new Intensity Pro because it is a great value if it has both HDMI and Component capture. The picture next to the "Intensity Pro" lable looked like it only had HDMI capture capability. Where would the component cables plug?

Also, what is the limit in length of component cables when capturing live before there starts to be a problem? Thanks!

Wouldn't using analog capture add another level of signal degradation?

Has anyone seen or heard any updated information on this?

Sorry guys. No good news as yet. We're still working on it.

Sorry guys. No good news as yet. We're still working on it.

Thanks, Kristian. Still working on it is better than not.

I didn't know when you might get back, so I posted on the COW too.

We have a Canon HV20 working fine with our HD-Connect MI and nanoConnect boxes, which do HDMI -> HD/SD-SDI. The HV20 produces a beautiful image, even better if you run it in live-capture mode.

Regarding analog vs digital capture, there is quite a dramatic difference in the quality. Check out the video that JVC produced (available from our web site), which sweeps between analog and digital capture (thru the nanoConnect) off the JVC HD50 deck. The differences are very obvious.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

We have a Canon HV20 working fine with our HD-Connect MI and nanoConnect boxes, which do HDMI -> HD/SD-SDI. The HV20 produces a beautiful image, even better if you run it in live-capture mode.

Regarding analog vs digital capture, there is quite a dramatic difference in the quality. Check out the video that JVC produced (available from our web site), which sweeps between analog and digital capture (thru the nanoConnect) off the JVC HD50 deck. The differences are very obvious.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design


Is that Mike Schell of the Interactive Images Plum fame? If so, 12 years later, yours is still one of my more memorable customer service experiences - personally handling telephone support from your home well after business hours.

Is that Mike Schell of the Interactive Images Plum fame? If so, 12 years later, yours is still one of my more memorable customer service experiences - personally handling telephone support from your home well after business hours.


Hi Roy-
Yeah, this is the same Mike Schell, just 12 years older and (hopefuly) wiser.

Best-
Mike

We have a Canon HV20 working fine with our HD-Connect MI and nanoConnect boxes, which do HDMI -> HD/SD-SDI. The HV20 produces a beautiful image, even better if you run it in live-capture mode.

Regarding analog vs digital capture, there is quite a dramatic difference in the quality. Check out the video that JVC produced (available from our web site), which sweeps between analog and digital capture (thru the nanoConnect) off the JVC HD50 deck. The differences are very obvious.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

Thanks for the JVC footage, shows alot of info there... whats the possibility that you could also post some HV20 footage showing the delta from HDMI and analog??

Out of curiosity, why would you want to use HDMI to capture off of a HV20 if you've already shot your footage? Wouldn't it already be compressed down to 1440x1080?

Out of curiosity, why would you want to use HDMI to capture off of a HV20 if you've already shot your footage? Wouldn't it already be compressed down to 1440x1080?I believe it's because the HV20 internally upconverts the footage to 1920x1080 and it gives slightly better colors. From what I am learning it's better to have tha done "in-camera" rather than through an NLE. Maybe someone else can help....

I believe it's because the HV20 internally upconverts the footage to 1920x1080 and it gives slightly better colors. From what I am learning it's better to have tha done "in-camera" rather than through an NLE. Maybe someone else can help....

I thought it was to have a very cheap "studio camera" with better color space and full 1080p resolution. This would mean that you have to have a computer connected to the camera during shooting.

I don't know if the internal upconversion can be any better than what a computer can do.

Out of curiosity, why would you want to use HDMI to capture off of a HV20 if you've already shot your footage? Wouldn't it already be compressed down to 1440x1080?

I bought the Intensity for edit monitoring. I'm not really interested in uncompressed HD, but for recorded HDV, capturing through HDMI on the Intensity offers the opportunity to get away from interframe compression of HDV. Generally, economy of processing power for editing and better quality graphics renders are the things that are gained in moving away from HDV for editing. Personally, I'm interested in the option to capture and edit as DVCPRO HD.

Personally, I'm interested in the option to capture and edit as DVCPRO HD.

That might be a mistake in quality. You take the 1920x1080 image and compress it to 1280x1080, which is all DVCPRO-HD 29.97 will do, lossing up to a third of the image. Also DVCPRO-HD will not help you with the pulldown issues, at 24p, which will not be flagged. You will not ba able to use the 24pA mode, so more loss of effeciency/quality. The are still issue on the Mac (a guess that is what you are using) for Intensity 29.97 to 24p and capture at 1920x1080. CineForm is hoping to address this in the Mac market like it does for the PC soon.

Thanks for the JVC footage, shows alot of info there... whats the possibility that you could also post some HV20 footage showing the delta from HDMI and analog??

Thanks Ray, we'll try to do a similar test on the HV20 in the future. However, I am quite confident you'll see similar improvements in the digital vs analog comparison.

Mike Schell

I bought the Intensity for edit monitoring. I'm not really interested in uncompressed HD, but for recorded HDV, capturing through HDMI on the Intensity offers the opportunity to get away from interframe compression of HDV. Generally, economy of processing power for editing and better quality graphics renders are the things that are gained in moving away from HDV for editing. Personally, I'm interested in the option to capture and edit as DVCPRO HD.

Hi Roy-
We have lots of customers using the DVCProHD CODEC for editing of their transcoded HDV material. It does have some shortcoming, but generally delivers a good image. However, I would highly recommend moving up to the new ProRes 422 CODEC, when it becomes available.

Mike Schell

Out of curiosity, why would you want to use HDMI to capture off of a HV20 if you've already shot your footage? Wouldn't it already be compressed down to 1440x1080?

Yes, any 1080i HDV footage which is captured to tape has been horizonatally resampled to 1440x1080 before the MPEG2 compression. But with regard to capturing this video, you still want to keep the processing in the 100% digital path to maintain as high a quality as possible.

It is true that the live-camera video out of the HV20 is exceptional (for a $1100 camera). You do get the full 1920x1080 422 YCbCr video which has need seen a compression cycle of any sort. At a shootout at NAB many people were hard pressed to tell the difference between the live HV20 and some very high-end ($100K+) cameras.

Mike Schell

At a shootout at NAB many people were hard pressed to tell the difference between the live HV20 and some very high-end ($100K+) cameras.

That's a little scary. Does anyone want to buy my slightly used HV20? I'm giving it away for $99,999!

That might be a mistake in quality. You take the 1920x1080 image and compress it to 1280x1080, which is all DVCPRO-HD 29.97 will do, lossing up to a third of the image. Also DVCPRO-HD will not help you with the pulldown issues, at 24p, which will not be flagged. You will not ba able to use the 24pA mode, so more loss of effeciency/quality. The are still issue on the Mac (a guess that is what you are using) for Intensity 29.97 to 24p and capture at 1920x1080. CineForm is hoping to address this in the Mac market like it does for the PC soon.

Well, it's all moot until I can capture with the Intensity.

I wouldn't presume to tell you anything (if just for the reason of number of posts alone - not even considering that you are an industry professional), but I was specifically talking about capturing from tape. I would think that as a practical matter going from 1440x1080 to 1280x1080 would be offset by also going from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 color and going from a 25Mbit compression to 100Mbit; i.e., wouldn't DCVPRO HD have higher quality potential than HDV?

As far as all of the 24p stuff goes, I'm not really interested in it. I bought the HV20 primarily for its HDMI port, to use as a feeder for FX1 and Z1 tapes (and as a family camcorder).

Hi Roy-
We have lots of customers using the DVCProHD CODEC for editing of their transcoded HDV material. It does have some shortcoming, but generally delivers a good image. However, I would highly recommend moving up to the new ProRes 422 CODEC, when it becomes available.

Mike Schell

Thanks, Mike.

Step one: Intensity support for the HV20

Step two: Intensity support for monitoring ProRes timelines

If those two things happen, I'm ready to give it a go.

I believe it's because the HV20 internally upconverts the footage to 1920x1080 and it gives slightly better colors. From what I am learning it's better to have tha done "in-camera" rather than through an NLE. Maybe someone else can help....Ryan, when I mentioned this I was talking about "after" the footage is captured to tape. I believe you still get better colors even after tape capture and it is internally blown back up to 1920x1080 (instead of you doing it with an NLE). Other than that.."live" usage is the real benefit (especially since this "little monster" does not have component out.

Thanks, Mike.

Step one: Intensity support for the HV20

Step two: Intensity support for monitoring ProRes timelines

If those two things happen, I'm ready to give it a go.

Step 2: Check. :)

O_o

im not sure by reading this thread if there was ever an answer, but the canon HV20 does indeed work perfectly with the black magic intensity HDMI input.

we caputured a bunch of footage using the mjpeg codec at 24p (the camera wraps the footage as 60i of course). weve been doing pulldown in after effects because premiere cant manage that. the quality of the codec is amazing, infinitely better than HDV especially on fast motion and high contrast. what would rock now is if the card could do pulldown on the fly.

im in the process of designing a small box that will connect the black magic card to a notebook express card slot (its basically a cable with an expresscard on one end and a x1 slot on the other). this should make everything nice and portable for shooting with the mjpeg compression. im working on a way to get a notebook to save uncompressed as well, but thats more challenging.

i see other are concerned with portability as well, so if anyone would is interested in this little express box, post here and i may be persuaded to make it a priority project.

later,
terence

Count me in, Terence. I've been looking for an Intensity type option that I could take on the road.

Is the capture footage 1920x1080?
Is it possible to capture on a PC, using Vegas? or Cineform?
Do you support the PAL HV20, 25p?
I would be interested in your notebook solution.
Patrick

- Is the capture footage 1920x1080?
yup, its full 1920x1080 60i. it bypasses the tape compression if you capture live.

- Is it possible to capture on a PC, using Vegas? or Cineform?
never used vegas or cineform, ill leave that to someone else to answer.
we captured in adobe premiere pro 1.5 and cs3. both are fine for 60i, but for 24p you have to save out and do the pulldown in another software such as after effects (pain in the a**).

- Do you support the PAL HV20, 25p?
no idea here, dont have pal settings on our camera.

- I would be interested in your notebook solution.
2 already eh? ill mock up a spec and estimated price for this box in the next week. its a passive device so it should be relatively cheap with enough volume.

terence