Mike Dulay
April 22nd, 2007, 09:24 AM
Making an index of opinions, facts and topics that are of interest to HV20 users/buyers. From the perspective of a consumer camcorder user ...
Why the hype?
HV20 is $1099 list for the NTSC model (some sold as low as sub-$999). The HC7 is $1399.99 (some as high as 1449.95 and low as $1138). The HV20 adds some of the missing features in the HV10. It has been touted (by users and a review) as a good "lower cost" playback device to the Canon XH-A1/G1 camcorders ($3999+, 3CCD HDV). This price point brings good quality HDV closer to what a discerning consumer can afford (compare to 2006-2007 cost of an HDTV display).
Historical side note
By comparison the original Canon Elura (MiniDV 680Kpixel, 1 Progressive CCD) was compared against the Sony PC-100 of its generation (circa 1999-2000). It was also touted as a good b-deck for the Canon XL-1 due to its comparable daylight performance. The Elura once listed at about $1799 and was considered "affordable". Seems Canon is doing a repeat
http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue9909/cameracorner.htm
HV20 vs HC7
The HV20 won for 24p and better low light grain. Complaints were lack of LANC and placement of battery. Which should you get? Ask yourself which features are important to you and look at the cameras for yourself.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91804
HV20 vs HV10
HV10 could go down to 5lux while the HV20 can do 3lux (on paper). HV20 adds Microphone In, HDMI out, and 24p mode (see caveats below). Form factor change from vertical to horizontal. Low light grain is still there but improved. OIS is good but like the HV10 does not lend well to jarring movements (-- extreme sports -- more on this later)
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91850
How good is lowlight?
Excellent for a consumer camera (to do better you need to go 3CCD, in HD format you need to step up to prosumer/professional level). HV20 has no "Nightshot" mode (ala IR) that you get out of Sony but does give you a built in video light (ghost hunting anyone?). The grain is finer on the HV20 but can still be spotted by discerning users. Users have noted that HDV24PF mode and adjustments to gain and contrast reduces the grain.
The other alternative is to get more light on the environment! Turn on more lights or shoot outdoors in daylight for the best pictures. This is true of any camera.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=139
Why do we talk about lowlight and grain?
Consumer users don't have controlled lighting environments. Shots done indoors with past cameras in dim lighting tends to show low or no detail (black blobs!) vs naked eye. The recorded image on this camcorder is subjectively a big improvement for users of other consumer camcorders using 1-CCD. Admittedly there is a large gap in price ($500 and below vs $1100 and below) but there is a corresponding jump in resolution and included features.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91982
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92025
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91407
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91526
What's this about jarring movements and OIS?
Optical Image Stabilization (OIS) is accepted as superior to the electronic kind typical of consumer camcorders. It is smoother and more tenacious in keeping the image from jumping around and giving you a headache. Even with professional camcorders that also use OIS, jarring movement isn't easy to counter. That's why professionals invest in products like steadicam/glidecam/xxxcam. With the increased resolution of an HD camera, fast movement of the camera lens in random directions result in jumpy video. Therefore jerking the camera body (typical when you run with it handheld) tends to give headache inducing video. This can be attenuated when shooting in 24p because of lower frame rate (bigger jumps between pictures). The OIS was made to counter handheld shaking while you're standing up (to make up for when you don't have a tripod) not as a gyro-stabilized unit.
Don't mistake this to mean the camcorder is unusable outside of standing shots. For kicks, I walked through Times Square with the camcorder mounted on a monopod (retracted, right hand grasping lightly, my attempt to keep it stable). When I don't attempt to frame my subject or hold it too tightly the image is jarring (probably because of yaw to go with the bob). But when I pay attention to what I'm trying to shoot (another person I've been following -- no I'm not stalking strangers I'm with them!) the image still bobs and leans but the picture doesn't have that white water rafting feel.
What's in the box and what else will I need?
The HV20 comes with the camera, 1 battery, a software disk, remote plus battery, manual, component cable, av-in, and mini-usb to usb cable.
You will need to get your own MiniDv tapes. I'm using high-grade TDK minidv tapes (from Costco) with no problem. An extra battery would be good if you need to record more than 1 tape at a time.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91757
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=90836
If you have a recent laptop its firewire (IEEE1394) port may be 4-pin so you will need a 4-pin to 4-pin cable. If you have a desktop you probably need a 6-pin to 4-pin cable. You need this cable if you intend to edit on a PC. You also need quite a bit of space (more later).
What other things would I "need?"
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89452
If you don't already have a tripod, go get one. The camcorder is light enough to work with almost anything. Just watch how stable it is since you don't want a stiff breeze to blow your tripod down along with your new camcorder.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88970
A 43mm UV protective filter would be good. The camera has an electronic cover but if you ever shoot near the ocean, rainy day, dusty area, you want a piece of glass to sacrifice instead of your built-in HD lens.
A camera bag is convenient if you have accessories to carry. I've survived with a regular backpack and a clean unused tupperware container plus some padding if you want waterproofing. I do have real camera bags with padding too though.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91329
What other things would I "want"
An external microphone if you're picky with sound. In a quiet room you can hear the camcorder's motor hum. Outdoors you won't notice it much.
Everyone seems to want the WD-H43 Wide Angle Lens.
A good PC if you want to edit HDV. See other sections of DVInfo. Windows, Mac, or Linux is your choice. If you can view HD video on it already you can probably suffer the editing times.
For Windows software you can use Windows Movie Maker which comes with windows vista home premium (don't know about 2000 and XP). The extracted format has the extension dvr-ms. Other NLEs produce m2t. For a slower "free" solution there are a collection of freeware tools that allow you to extract and edit the video.
Don't know much about Macs but I hear of Final Cut Pro a lot.
For editing and storing all your HDV on a computer, get good size harddrives. Figure on about 15GB per hour of video.
Caveat with 24p/25p
The HV20's sensor is progressive. But the HDV standard for 1080i is interlaced. So the camcorder saves its progressive images in an interlaced container. When viewed raw the m2t files generated will show interlace lines and its effects (horizontal lines showing during panning movement). Viewing this on interlaced displays is no problem. But for PCs (which are progressive displays) you tend to notice. To extract the true 24p image you need to go through a process called reverse telecine/pulldown. You'll hear the word cadence thrown around. This is can be confusing and overwhelming for beginners trying their hand with fancy new tools like Sony Vegas (can't do the pulldown correctly just yet). But not all is lost.
Windows Movie Maker (Vista Home Premium) appears to handle the extraction nicely (dvr-ms format) and conveniently blends the frames into a progressive image when displayed in Windows Media Center. For those viewing raw m2t you can use VLC player to see the image without interlace. No choice for Media Player Classic though. Windows Media Player won't open m2t.
If you want to share your video without the interlace, you can recompress using your choice of NLE. Select progressive. These are all simplistic suggestions. Watch the forums if you're into serious editing to learn all about converting to true 24p.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92016
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91981
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91905
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91899
Everyone jump in!
Why the hype?
HV20 is $1099 list for the NTSC model (some sold as low as sub-$999). The HC7 is $1399.99 (some as high as 1449.95 and low as $1138). The HV20 adds some of the missing features in the HV10. It has been touted (by users and a review) as a good "lower cost" playback device to the Canon XH-A1/G1 camcorders ($3999+, 3CCD HDV). This price point brings good quality HDV closer to what a discerning consumer can afford (compare to 2006-2007 cost of an HDTV display).
Historical side note
By comparison the original Canon Elura (MiniDV 680Kpixel, 1 Progressive CCD) was compared against the Sony PC-100 of its generation (circa 1999-2000). It was also touted as a good b-deck for the Canon XL-1 due to its comparable daylight performance. The Elura once listed at about $1799 and was considered "affordable". Seems Canon is doing a repeat
http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue9909/cameracorner.htm
HV20 vs HC7
The HV20 won for 24p and better low light grain. Complaints were lack of LANC and placement of battery. Which should you get? Ask yourself which features are important to you and look at the cameras for yourself.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91804
HV20 vs HV10
HV10 could go down to 5lux while the HV20 can do 3lux (on paper). HV20 adds Microphone In, HDMI out, and 24p mode (see caveats below). Form factor change from vertical to horizontal. Low light grain is still there but improved. OIS is good but like the HV10 does not lend well to jarring movements (-- extreme sports -- more on this later)
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91850
How good is lowlight?
Excellent for a consumer camera (to do better you need to go 3CCD, in HD format you need to step up to prosumer/professional level). HV20 has no "Nightshot" mode (ala IR) that you get out of Sony but does give you a built in video light (ghost hunting anyone?). The grain is finer on the HV20 but can still be spotted by discerning users. Users have noted that HDV24PF mode and adjustments to gain and contrast reduces the grain.
The other alternative is to get more light on the environment! Turn on more lights or shoot outdoors in daylight for the best pictures. This is true of any camera.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=139
Why do we talk about lowlight and grain?
Consumer users don't have controlled lighting environments. Shots done indoors with past cameras in dim lighting tends to show low or no detail (black blobs!) vs naked eye. The recorded image on this camcorder is subjectively a big improvement for users of other consumer camcorders using 1-CCD. Admittedly there is a large gap in price ($500 and below vs $1100 and below) but there is a corresponding jump in resolution and included features.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91982
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92025
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91407
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91526
What's this about jarring movements and OIS?
Optical Image Stabilization (OIS) is accepted as superior to the electronic kind typical of consumer camcorders. It is smoother and more tenacious in keeping the image from jumping around and giving you a headache. Even with professional camcorders that also use OIS, jarring movement isn't easy to counter. That's why professionals invest in products like steadicam/glidecam/xxxcam. With the increased resolution of an HD camera, fast movement of the camera lens in random directions result in jumpy video. Therefore jerking the camera body (typical when you run with it handheld) tends to give headache inducing video. This can be attenuated when shooting in 24p because of lower frame rate (bigger jumps between pictures). The OIS was made to counter handheld shaking while you're standing up (to make up for when you don't have a tripod) not as a gyro-stabilized unit.
Don't mistake this to mean the camcorder is unusable outside of standing shots. For kicks, I walked through Times Square with the camcorder mounted on a monopod (retracted, right hand grasping lightly, my attempt to keep it stable). When I don't attempt to frame my subject or hold it too tightly the image is jarring (probably because of yaw to go with the bob). But when I pay attention to what I'm trying to shoot (another person I've been following -- no I'm not stalking strangers I'm with them!) the image still bobs and leans but the picture doesn't have that white water rafting feel.
What's in the box and what else will I need?
The HV20 comes with the camera, 1 battery, a software disk, remote plus battery, manual, component cable, av-in, and mini-usb to usb cable.
You will need to get your own MiniDv tapes. I'm using high-grade TDK minidv tapes (from Costco) with no problem. An extra battery would be good if you need to record more than 1 tape at a time.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91757
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=90836
If you have a recent laptop its firewire (IEEE1394) port may be 4-pin so you will need a 4-pin to 4-pin cable. If you have a desktop you probably need a 6-pin to 4-pin cable. You need this cable if you intend to edit on a PC. You also need quite a bit of space (more later).
What other things would I "need?"
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89452
If you don't already have a tripod, go get one. The camcorder is light enough to work with almost anything. Just watch how stable it is since you don't want a stiff breeze to blow your tripod down along with your new camcorder.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88970
A 43mm UV protective filter would be good. The camera has an electronic cover but if you ever shoot near the ocean, rainy day, dusty area, you want a piece of glass to sacrifice instead of your built-in HD lens.
A camera bag is convenient if you have accessories to carry. I've survived with a regular backpack and a clean unused tupperware container plus some padding if you want waterproofing. I do have real camera bags with padding too though.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91329
What other things would I "want"
An external microphone if you're picky with sound. In a quiet room you can hear the camcorder's motor hum. Outdoors you won't notice it much.
Everyone seems to want the WD-H43 Wide Angle Lens.
A good PC if you want to edit HDV. See other sections of DVInfo. Windows, Mac, or Linux is your choice. If you can view HD video on it already you can probably suffer the editing times.
For Windows software you can use Windows Movie Maker which comes with windows vista home premium (don't know about 2000 and XP). The extracted format has the extension dvr-ms. Other NLEs produce m2t. For a slower "free" solution there are a collection of freeware tools that allow you to extract and edit the video.
Don't know much about Macs but I hear of Final Cut Pro a lot.
For editing and storing all your HDV on a computer, get good size harddrives. Figure on about 15GB per hour of video.
Caveat with 24p/25p
The HV20's sensor is progressive. But the HDV standard for 1080i is interlaced. So the camcorder saves its progressive images in an interlaced container. When viewed raw the m2t files generated will show interlace lines and its effects (horizontal lines showing during panning movement). Viewing this on interlaced displays is no problem. But for PCs (which are progressive displays) you tend to notice. To extract the true 24p image you need to go through a process called reverse telecine/pulldown. You'll hear the word cadence thrown around. This is can be confusing and overwhelming for beginners trying their hand with fancy new tools like Sony Vegas (can't do the pulldown correctly just yet). But not all is lost.
Windows Movie Maker (Vista Home Premium) appears to handle the extraction nicely (dvr-ms format) and conveniently blends the frames into a progressive image when displayed in Windows Media Center. For those viewing raw m2t you can use VLC player to see the image without interlace. No choice for Media Player Classic though. Windows Media Player won't open m2t.
If you want to share your video without the interlace, you can recompress using your choice of NLE. Select progressive. These are all simplistic suggestions. Watch the forums if you're into serious editing to learn all about converting to true 24p.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92016
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91981
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91905
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91899
Everyone jump in!