Hi all,

Am still very much learning about my new A1 (big learning curve from VX2000) I used to record the sound for a first dance previously on my VX2000 in Auto using the on board mic, and found this was fine, but i recently tried the same with the A1 for the first time, and the sound of the DJ coming through the camera was booming! The bass was really heavy and breaking up, so much so that I had to overdub the original artist's track over it. I see the attenuator switch lowers the sound; should i have this on when recording loud stuff; Bands/DJ's in the future? Or can you suggest an alternative method/mic?

Thanks

Martin

You definitely need to flick the attenuator switch. I made the mistake of not doing so, and the result was an orgy of distorted sound.

Been there....done that!


Agree, flick the attenuator switch.

I was just testing and experimenting last night with the A1 at a CD launch I played at. Found some of the top end of the music was distorting as well.

So basically for anything musical, attenuator switch flipped on?

Would manually lowering the channels, basically do the same thing? (flipping the switch to M and adjusting. Or is there an advantage to keeping the switch at A for that. (ie. it compensates on the fly)

Anybody know?

As a side note, I tested filming with the spotlight setting on, and it was too dark as the spotlights on the stage were just so-so and if someone wasn't directly under them, it wasn't bright enough. So I went to manual settings, open iris, 1/30 and gain at both -3 and -6 and the footage came out quite nice, no noise in the dark spots, or hardly noticeable.

This was all done on Steve's VIVIDGRB (final version after the magenta debate) Not sure if the setting was appropriate or not for a dark club but it looked good.

Trish

I found that although the audio levels were peaking at -3 db, and thus should be fine, sound was still distorted, because the mic was clipping heavily.

Bands/DJ's in the future? Or can you suggest an alternative method/mic?

Forget the on-board mic altogether. Use mics with a high SPL rating. No attenuation is going to reduce distortion at the mic source if the mic elements can't take it to begin with.

Bill

That's concerning if the levels where looking fine. The only way you'd know otherwise at that point would be to have headphones on the whole time.

Did you have the channels set to Auto or Manual?

so, what happens if the attenuator switch is accidentally left on for, say, a failry quite scene which still needs good sound. (I'm thinking church minister speaking etc)

That's concerning if the levels where looking fine. The only way you'd know otherwise at that point would be to have headphones on the whole time.

Did you have the channels set to Auto or Manual?

Sorry Trish, were you asking me that - i had the audio at AUTO.
What is SPL then on Mics?

As a side note, I tested filming with the spotlight setting on, and it was too dark as the spotlights on the stage were just so-so and if someone wasn't directly under them, it wasn't bright enough. So I went to manual settings, open iris, 1/30 and gain at both -3 and -6 and the footage came out quite nice, no noise in the dark spots, or hardly noticeable.

This was all done on Steve's VIVIDGRB (final version after the magenta debate) Not sure if the setting was appropriate or not for a dark club but it looked good.

Hi Trish,
I've been messing with spotlight mode as well and got similar results to you. I did not have a lot of time to experiment but it appears to me that the preset does have an effect. I think that lowering pedestal and/or setup will darken the results. I don't know quite understand why AE Shift is disabled in this mode. Ultimately I decided that I couldn't trust spotlight mode and went with manual.

One aspect of the A1 that I don't like is when using any of the auto assist modes, the camera will not display the setting that it's controlling. For example, in Tv mode, it won't display the f/stop it chooses. I didn't experiment enough to say for sure but I got the impression that in spotlight mode the camera may be altering the shutter speed as well the f/stop.

-Dan

I had wondered if setting the channels on manual and bringing it down that way would have helped, but it sounds like using the built-in microphone is not recommended.

I got the sony package, (there was a promotion at Vistek in Canada where they included a wireless F-112 mic and UTX plug-on transmitter along with the regular wireless set) I have yet to properly test it.

I've tried out the lapel wireless and it was nice sounding even with singing and guitar strapped to me, but haven't tried out the F-112 which could be mounted on the camera as well. ( I sure hope it's got a high SPL rating reading this after the fact)

Is the consensus to avoid the onboard at all costs?

Hi Trish,
I've been messing with spotlight mode as well and got similar results to you. I did not have a lot of time to experiment but it appears to me that the preset does have an effect. I think that lowering pedestal and/or setup will darken the results. I don't know quite understand why AE Shift is disabled in this mode. Ultimately I decided that I couldn't trust spotlight mode and went with manual.

One aspect of the A1 that I don't like is when using any of the auto assist modes, the camera will not display the setting that it's controlling. For example, in Tv mode, it won't display the f/stop it chooses. I didn't experiment enough to say for sure but I got the impression that in spotlight mode the camera may be altering the shutter speed as well the f/stop.

-Dan

I did use the spotlight setting at another club that was better lit and it was fine. But I didn't have Steve's vividgrb setting on at the time - not sure if that makes a difference. I vaguely remember people discussing what was going on with the spotlight mode that managed to shoot well without grain, but in the end I don't think anybody had an answer for what 'spotlight' was actually doing.

(and for grain, I meant where big noise will show in only the dark areas, not overall texture - I know have permanently taken off that autogain switch)

I have to go out again tonight to another event so I'm going to be trying a few things based on last night's hits and misses. I'm using these nights as testers til I find the best settings, but I have a feeling I'll end up close to the manual settings I used last night, and when I get brave enough, all manual focus, because when it gets s bit dark the auto starts to wander.

As for displaying what is changing, that isn't an option in the menu section is it? I know you can choose what you want to show on the display to some degree. I'll have to check.

Is the consensus to avoid the onboard at all costs?

It would be a poor show if that were the case.

Initially when I bought my A1 (a week ago) I filmed a wedding with the on board mic, and using what I learnt with my XL1s (no longer with me - sob) I made sure of flicking the ATT on when filming the reception (DJ noise etc).

I had the level control on on my A1 set to Auto, and as pointed out in this thread, I would say this is the safer option (others may beg to differ)

The results were satisfactory, but I still think the onboard mic on my XL1s was MUCH better.

So for my next wedding gig, I bought the Rode NTG1 (or the Rodent G1 as I call it) and the difference is more than substantial!!!

My current settings are:

On board mic - off
XLR - On
16Bit
Phantom Power to Rodent G1
Attenuator switch ALWAYS on (I find it too sensitive otherwise)
Level control set to Auto
CH1/CH2 Switch activated, recording mono to both channels

I can film noisey/quiet environments without switching anything around.

And Martin also asked "so, what happens if the attenuator switch is accidentally left on for, say, a failry quite scene which still needs good sound. (I'm thinking church minister speaking etc)"

In such circumstances (as previously experienced by myself with my XL1s) you will get VERY quiet audio and you'll need to increase the volume/gain in post quite a bit! (with Vegas, I had to crank up all the controls!) and even then, you may lose some of the ambient sound. Also, in line with cranking up speech etc, you'll most probably be amplifying all the grainy noise you don't want!

Best bet - get a good XLR phantom powered mic and apply the relevant settings.

Hello to all,

I used to use a vx-2100 with the onboard mic all the time. I just got my A1 and used it for the first time. I used the onboard mic on auto because it was what I was used to. Big mistake! The DJ was super loud & the whole reception shy of the cake cutting was distorted. I also had to dub music over it. Now, I'm playing with putting 1 mic onboard on 1 channel & a wireless on the DJ's top speaker or even his soundboard on the other channel for a mixdown in post. Anybody ever have problems like this?

Angelo

For any loud venue, use the MIC ATT setting with the on-board mic if in doubt. It will probably do OK up to about the threshold of pain. If preserving the original audio dynamic range is not important, AGC mode is usually fine.

Good external are better, but they need to be a good external mic. Do not expect a $60 special to give you any significant improvement over he build-in mic.

Use earphones to monitor sound to detect clipping in the front preamp that might not manifest itself on the VU meter. The MIC level input preamp is ahead of the level controls, in which case the level control will not effect preamp clipping - just the meter indication (that is standard, not a Canon-unique apprach). However, MIC ATT setting will help.

Yes, you definitely need to have the ATT on in such loud environments.

On the first wedding I used my A1 I did use earphones but the noise level from the DJ was such that I couldn't hear anything in them, so I went outside briefly during the reception and played back some footage to check the levels.

The XLR mic has made a vast improvement over the onboard mic however as Don noted, a cheaper external will probably not be much better than the onboard.

Don do you have any experience with XL1s microphone - is it just me who thinks the sound capabilities of it were far greater than the onboard A1 mic?

I've not yet done a critical comparison of the XL1 mic to the A1 internal mic.

I just shoot live show this weekend and i forgot to turn the ATn on and i paid for it dearly. The second day i made sure it was on and sound was a fab. I left the control M, next i will try with auto. Do any of you guys use ocktava?

But to clarify, did you use the onboard mic with ATT on for the live show, or an external mic? Or are just thinking of purchasing the Octava?

I shot more music footage the other night, with the ATT on this time and it was fine with the onboard mic.

I was also testing the gain for the lighting, 3 and 6 were ok, but 12 was way too grainy. (off topic to the audio portion, I know, but relevant to low light recording which usually comes with this)

Trish

Just shot the my first reception using the A1 (moved up from the GL1/XL1). Found that internal MIC with MIC ATT setting (and AGC) was fine for wedding reception dancing with overly loud DJ planning generic rock music. Heck, the sound was so loud it hurt my ears, and people could not talk to each other at the tables. In this sort of venue there is no such thing as quality sound, just various degrees of beat. THis is also the sort of imaging where they client is usually not interested in music quality, but is seeing the guests (and themselves) on the floor dancing, etc.

Don, I realized something last night while on a gig at a reception. As we all know, there's no way to select separate channels for AGC. This in itself is ridiculous to begin with & has always been in my top 5 of complaints regarding the A1.

I noticed something peculiar with the meters & had a hunch & tried something. I always used a wireless handheld mic on a stand a few feet from a band or dj monitor. I went near the opposite monitor & pointed the shotgun mic toward it. The A1's level of my wireless mic channel went considerably LOWER! If I moved away from the monitor, the wireless channel went back to it's preferred level.

I NEVER thought to test this, thinking surely that even though the AGC switch selects both channels & not independently... it activates the same way as well. Meaning... whatever level changes are to one channel, it's going to affect the other also.

I get steamed thinking about this, but from now on will have to meticulously set levels manually for venues of this nature.

End of mini-rant :-\

Bill

IMHO, setting manual levels in a typical wedding reception with a DJ in crowded room, at least as implemented around here, is by and large a waste of effort. If one needs the music neat and clean, get the materal on CD and dub in post. If there is a live band, the answer might be different depending on the nature of the band. And then you may need an audio engineert and mixer to get a consistent product. If I want good clean ambient sound of the band or DJ, I use a separate MiniDISC or similar recorder left free running, and add it in post.

That AGC tracks and effects both channels is consistent with the XL/GL series (and Canon's camcorders before that). Tracking by the AGC is necesary if the stereo image/sound stage is to be preserved when recording stereo program material.

I also found that the AGC worked great for table invterviews during the dancing, far better than I would have expected just from meter indications. It gave a bit of a side-chain voice-over effect when the guest spoke into the handheld wireless mic providing better thatn expected seoparation form the DJ efforts. (Used a Shure Beta 58 mic with Sony wireless transmitter for that.) The AGC does provide some what of a sta-level like effect that is very helpful in that sort of one-man operations.

However, do what works to meet your artistic intent, the clients needs, and that characterizes the product you produce.

I used the onboard mic. It was good enough but ATTn on is a must. I use my octova with my other camera's, it doesn't fit right with A1 mount. I am still trying to find a way to do it. I never have the camera on auto for anything. So are you guys saying going Auto on the audio better?

Whether or not to use AGC for audio is situational decision. If you do not have a compelling need to retain the original dynamic range of the audio source, and do not have free hands to deal with managing levels as you shoot, than AGC is generally a good alternative.

If you have a need to preserve the original dynamic range, then AGC would not normally be a great choice, especially if there is a wide range in sound level. You may be better off estimating the maximum expected sound level and recording at a low enough level to ensure you do not hit clipping on audio peaks.

You have to decide based on your program material and your project needs. And remember that all advice you find on the internet is worth at least what you paid for it, some maybe a bit more. One person's obsession is another's "who cares." Experiences related by others can help you understand the options and that can help you make the call as you build your own experience pool upon which to rely, but no one else can make that call for you, especially over the internet.

BTW: Which Oktava model are you using with a camcorder?

- - -

Especially for events such as weddings: Average sound is much better than bad sound, and for the most part Joe and Jane Sixpack don't know the difference between average sound and good sound. They only know what Uncle Charlie shot hand held from the last row at the school concert with his $300 handicam's built-in mic (before the battery died), and then played back over their TV.

Thanks Don. I am using MK12. It is small and it doen't stick out and the sound is great. I was getting tired changing the levels while shooting and also bumbing up in the post. i will try auto for my next shoot. My biggest fear is the audio might get distorted if i leave it in auto?

Do some practice. If nothing else, turn your stereo tp blast and play around, before the next shoot. or find a garage band practicing and shoot them, to see how things work for you.

Last night I shot an EXTREMELY loud band last night in LA. The audio came out clear and completely undistorted. Here's what I had:

AT-897 shortgun mic mounted on camera
XLR input on obviously
12+db boost off
audio level auto
att on