Sorry for the mis type.

I meant 4:2:0

However, is this shooting Interframe or Long GOP, or something else?

Thanks

Addendum:

I guess it does shoot mpeg2: "The planned camcorder is based on MPEG-2 compression technology with three, ½-inch imagers."

Important also to note that although it uses an MPEG-2 compression technology, it has a different (higher) data rate than HDV as well as using VBR instead of CBR. From what I've heard this cam will use at least 35 Mbit VBR instead of HDV's 25 Mbit CBR. So all MPEG-2 compression schemes are NOT equal....this one is already being used in Sony's current HD XD cams and is said to be quite a bit better than HDV, at least from what I've heard.

Gabe:

Thanks.

One issue that took us away from HDV based cams such as the Z1U was how well the footage held up on post.

A secondary issue was the whole conforming process which was lengthy.

Finally, HDV footage didn't look particularly good when taken to either SD and HD DVDs.

Having released a couple of commercial SD DVD's shot at 35mbit HD I can assure you there are no problems with dropping to SD.

35mbit is NOT HDV, although it's Mpeg2 and that scares some people, it's a different codec.

From what I've seen, the EX will slot in perfectly with the XDCam HD cameras. You also have to remember it's a purely Sony Professional product, it's not developed with the domestic market in mind at all.

One issue that took us away from HDV based cams such as the Z1U was how well the footage held up on post.

A secondary issue was the whole conforming process which was lengthy.

Finally, HDV footage didn't look particularly good when taken to either SD and HD DVDs.
I've had no issues with HDV in post, on any DVDs. I'm using Final Cut Pro. Many tend to convert their footage to an Intermediate Codec to edit.

heath

My HDV stuff is looking good too, editing with FCP. I keep it 24p all the way. DVDs look great. "Conforming" time is about 2:1--ie., a half hour program takes about an hour to render out.

Sony keeps advertising this as the first of the XDCAM-EX "series" of cameras.

Here's hoping the next in line is a compact, streamlined hard-disk based XDCAM with professional features. An XDCAM version of the SR1, perhaps?

All the Sony literature has said it will use any off-the-shelf card. Something new: It's not proprietary. That's reason enough to buy it.

The Sony rep at NAB said any card that is fast enough will work. They had 2 different manufacturers cards there on display (including their own). That means that 32 or 64 gb and higher cards should be out sooner rather than later (looking at you P2!).

Sorry for the mis type.

I meant 4:2:0

However, is this shooting Interframe or Long GOP, or something else?

Thanks

Addendum:

I guess it does shoot mpeg2: "The planned camcorder is based on MPEG-2 compression technology with three, ½-inch imagers."

I believe it's long and 4:2:2, also, I hear release may be early Sept.

Here's hoping the next in line is a compact, streamlined hard-disk based XDCAM with professional features.

Interesting comment. What 'professional features' do you think the camera is missing? Frankly, for a handheld design, this camera is LOADED with professional features including the fully manual Fujinon lens. Other standard switches are located in the right places as well.

Or maybe I misunderstood and you want the camera to change form without losing its professional features.

-gb-

Or maybe I misunderstood and you want the camera to change form without losing its professional features.

-gb-

Right, that's it. I want it smaller, lighter and more ergonomically designed, with the same feature set. And a large capacity hard-disk-based system would be a nice alternative to SxS cards.

At this point the physical body design is most likely locked and the moldings already cast. There may very well be some slight alterations, but the shipping date is now only a few months away, so a radical change in the shape and dimensions of the camera body is not going to happen.

I wonder how the XDCAM EX's exposure latitude will compare to the Sony V1.

I'm sure Sony wasn't happy when I reported the FX1/Z1 produced a "hi-rez DV" look -- that was "too blue."

Well the V1 blows that comment away. The difference is like:

1) going to a fine grain emulsion

2) switching from Kodachrome to Ektachrome

Today we had bright white clouds and clear bright blue skies in LV. I found I could shoot just like I was using film with 10-stops of latitude. I could underexpose for a "dark" look or go for a "bleached" look.

Not only can you shoot as though you had film because of the extreme latitude -- colors are significantly less saturated and edge enhancement was nil. I'm calling this capability "virtual film." Note, this has nothing to do with 24p.

So, will the new Sony have better exposure latitude? wow

Adam Wilt measured the lattitude of the V1 at 8.3 - 9 stops. The dynamic range of the V1 is actually pretty comperable to the current crop of CCD cameras, perhaps just marginally better.

The F330/F350 have a 7 stop range out of the box, but Cine4 brings that up to 10 stops. Plus the F330/F350 provide way more control over the highlight knee and black settings, so you can really tailor the image to the environment you're shooting in and the look you want to achieve.

Presumably the electronics in the XDCAM EX are going to be closer to the F330/F350 than the V1. I certainly hope so. The images from the F330/F350 look very naturally exposed, with a film-like noise pattern; whereas to my eye images from the V1 usually look overly hot, rather electronic, and have an ugly "shimmying" noise signature (a very un-film-like grain pattern).

The F330/F350 have a 7 stop range out of the box, but Cine4 brings that up to 10 stops.

Cine4
What is that?

Cine 4 is one of the gamma curves you can choose with the F330/F350.

Out of the box the F330/F350 doesn't handle highlights very well. But the Cine gamma curves (particularly Cine4) dramatically increase the amount of the lattitude that the camera can capture.

They have a VERY customisable image. Not just in things like knee settings and colorometry, but even down to being able to reduce the edge enhancement in the shadows so as not to make the grain over emphasise itself.

I really hope that Sony brings the same level of control to the HDCAM EX... though that may be wishful thinking given the prosumer nature of this camera.

I really hope that Sony brings the same level of control to the HDCAM EX... though that may be wishful thinking given the prosumer nature of this camera.

They might.

I know it's been said before, but I'd love to see:

1. CMOS sensors.

2. Full 1920 x 1080 sensors (like the Canon HV20).

heath

Cine 4 is one of the gamma curves you can choose with the F330/F350.

Out of the box the F330/F350 doesn't handle highlights very well. But the Cine gamma curves (particularly Cine4) dramatically increase the amount of the lattitude that the camera can capture.

It's no secret that I have professed my love for the Cine4 curve coupled with HISAT matrix. But Cine4 is not the best for maximum latitude. That would be Cine2. It has the most highlight compression of all. I've been trying out Cine2 lately in some stronger contrast situations and I like the way it looks under those circumstances.

-gb-

I know it's been said before, but I'd love to see:

1. CMOS sensors.

2. Full 1920 x 1080 sensors (like the Canon HV20).

heath

Personally I'd be really reluctant to see CMOS sensors as I have yet to see any CMOS based camera that actually has a particularly "organic" looking noise signature.

It's no secret that I have professed my love for the Cine4 curve coupled with HISAT matrix. But Cine4 is not the best for maximum latitude. That would be Cine2. It has the most highlight compression of all. I've been trying out Cine2 lately in some stronger contrast situations and I like the way it looks under those circumstances.

-gb-

Cine 2... Yes, you're right. I haven't spent enough time playing with the F350... I was in the market for one of my own, but Panasonic's HPX500 and now the XDCAM EX have confused my purchasing decision... and now I'm just waiting until I see what Sony have in store for us with this little Camera.

I disagree, Alex. I've been shooting with the V1u the last 4 days and have really loved it. I may pick one up soon.

heath

Cine 2... Yes, you're right. I haven't spent enough time playing with the F350... I was in the market for one of my own, but Panasonic's HPX500 and now the XDCAM EX have confused my purchasing decision... and now I'm just waiting until I see what Sony have in store for us with this little Camera.

Over in the XDCAM forum, Alex, I posted a grab of the four cinegamma curves from the Sony literature. That was awhile back, but you can look for threads with the paperclip icon at the right which indicates at least one post in that thread contains attachments. Just an FYI in case you haven't already seen that chart.

And IIRC, Cine4 is taken straight from the F900 series camera.

-gb-

I disagree, Alex. I've been shooting with the V1u the last 4 days and have really loved it...

Don't get me wrong. The V1 is a nice little camera, but it's a league appart from the F330/F350.

To my eyes the noise signature in the V1 image just doesn't look natural. Because CMOSs produce more noise than CCDs Sony have applied a proprietary noise reduction technique [according to Adam Wilt]. It's a sort of coring effect, which can be quite intense in lower light, and produces a sort of mild shimmering rather than a fine "grain". Personally I don't like it.

And I also hate the electronic shutter. It's a little arbritrary I know, but I love windmills and you can't film a windmil with an electronic shutter!

Over in the XDCAM forum, Alex, I posted a grab of the four cinegamma curves from the Sony literature. That was awhile back, but you can look for threads with the paperclip icon at the right which indicates at least one post in that thread contains attachments. Just an FYI in case you haven't already seen that chart.

And IIRC, Cine4 is taken straight from the F900 series camera.

-gb-

Thanks Greg, I will search it out...

I will shoot some side-by-sides in 60i, 30p and 24p with the Z1u (in 60i, CF30 and 50i/CF25) and compare the noise. I'm now curious.

heath

Alex,

Why is the noise signature so important? (I'm a noob)

Thanks

Noise in an image is never a good thing. Chip size and the number of pixels have a lot to do with that. A small chip (1/4 inch or 1/3 inch, for example) that is HD means they're packing over a million pixels onto a smaller chip. This increases the signal-to-noise ratio.

I'll see if Graeme Nattress will comment further on this.

heath

Thanks Heath

How is the 1/2" F350/330 with noise?

To over-simplify things, all things being equal, the smaller the pixel, the noisier it has and the less dynamic range it has. You can get around this in two ways - build bigger pixels, or you can build better pixels. Pixels tend to get better year on year, but they also tend to get smaller....

Becuase when a pixel gets full, it clips, the size of the pixel in what charge it can hold determines the largest amount of light it can take. On the other hand, noise limits the smallest amount of light it can accurately record. Together, hand in hand, size of pixel and noise control dynamic range.

Graeme

Thanks as always, Graeme!

heath

And the way the analog signal from the CCD or CMOS is converted and processed by the camera; the various different techniques employed by the camera manufacturers to reduce the apparent noise in the image; and the video codec used in the recording; all influence the way the noise is displayed (the "noise signature").

Some cameras display the noise in dark areas. Some display noise over the entire image. Some display the noise as a fine grain. Some display the noise as blocks.

Of course what equates to an "attractive" noise signature is pretty much subjective. Personally I prefer something that looks more grainy but organic ("film-like"), than too clean but blocky ("electronic"). Again these are my subjective terms, and reflect my preference, but not necessarily anyone elses.

On the general scale of things the F330/350 are fairly noisy cameras in the shadows, but the gently granular quality of the noise combined with the 35mbit XDCAM HD codec looks really nice (in my opinion). I guess only time will tell whether the XDCAM EX will look more like the F330/350 or the V1...

Does anyone know if this camera will record proxies like the 330/350?

Can someone post a summary of what we know about the XDCAM EX camera?

3 x 1/2 " Sensors (CMOS?)
XDCAM format, 35 Mb/s (or is there a chance that this will offer 4:2:2 at 50 Mb/s?)
14x Fujinon lens
SxS (ExpressCard) flash memory storage - 2 cards
Price - under $8K
Launch date?

Thanks
Tom

I don't remember seeing a 14x Fujinon lens. The lens isn't interchangable, it's fixed. Might be a Zeiss...

heath

I don't remember seeing a 14x Fujinon lens. The lens isn't interchangable, it's fixed. Might be a Zeiss...

heath

Thanks Heath. There was a post or two in this thread saying that the fixed lens was manufactured by Fujinon. See http://www.tapelessrev.com/xdcamnab2007.html

Tom

Here are some photos Chris Hurd took:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91612

Nothing on the lens indicating who made it.

heath

Here are some photos Chris Hurd took:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91612

Nothing on the lens indicating who made it.

heath

It's definitely a Fujinon lens on the XDCAM EX, Heath. 'Saw it with my own eyes', as they say.

-gb-

I figured you did--when I was at the Sony NAB event, I didn't think to ask about the Fujinon, or look, for that matter!

heath

It is certainly a Fujinon lens, designed specifically for the EX.

I thought the web magazine following link might be of interest.

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/video/8017.html

In particular, the accompanying video from NAB
with a Sony rep being interviewed about the camera.

In particular, the accompanying video from NAB
with a Sony rep being interviewed about the camera.

That guy is much more than a rep....he is Hugo Gaggioni, their Chief Technology Officer. Hugo is a compression guru that really knows his stuff.

-gb-

What we know so far...
3 x 1/2" Sensors (New advanced high resolution sensors CCD? CMOS?)
XDCAM format, 35 Mb/s (MPEG-2 MP@HL, Long GOP, 1440 x 1080 or 1280 x 720)
14x Fujinon lens - fixed. Manual zoom, focus, and aperture / iris.
SxS (ExpressCard using PCIe) flash memory storage - 2 card slots.
16 GB cards available now under $400 each, 32 GB cards available in a few months
Price - under $8K
Official announcement / details expected July
Availability / launch (IBC?)

That guy is much more than a rep....he is Hugo Gaggioni, their Chief Technology Officer. Hugo is a compression guru that really knows his stuff.

-gb-

I'm a noob - and know it. So my ignorance shows. What a surprise.
But at least you looked - so the post wasn't a total waste, I hope.

If it was under $4K I would be more impressed. How long till this gets here again?

Check out the video that Bill Koehler linked to...
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/video/8017.html

In this video, Hugo Gaggioni said "we are going to do the official launch of this camcorder in July, and at that moment we will release much more information."

Here's what's cool...The V1u shipped a bit in December and more in January at around $5000. By late April, with a $300 mail-in-rebate, it was going for $3500 or so. I asked my local dealer, and she said it's because the camera was very popular.

If the EX starts at $8000, and sells well, I could see it dropping in price within a few months. We saw it with the HVX200. I swear the camera cost $8000 and now goes for, what, $6000?

heath

50 Mb/s and 422 unlikely for the EX since it appears they have reserved that for the much more expensive 2/3" XDCAM HD model. Sony has to protect their higher end models.

In this video, Hugo Gaggioni said "we are going to do the official launch of this camcorder in July, and at that moment we will release much more information."

July! Darn it I can wait that long... I need more info NOW. :-D

Check out the video that Bill Koehler linked to...
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/video/8017.html

In this video, Hugo Gaggioni said "we are going to do the official launch of this camcorder in July, and at that moment we will release much more information."

Although the details will be finalized and 'official information' will be released in the July timeframe, the shipping date is still slated for mid to late fall.

-gb-