I just discovered an inexpensive workaround for editing AVCHD. I wrote it up here on my blog : http://cineform.blogspot.com/2007/04/avchd-support.html

Basically the Elecard MPEG player with the option AVCHD module is all you need. This will enable all CineForm's PC apps (with HDLink) to batch convert your *.m2ts (AVCHD) media into far more editable CineForm AVIs. Editing AVIs instead of the heavy compressed MPEG4 transport streams, will allow AVCHD camera's to be much more useful.

I hope this is helpful news.

Now that is indeed very helpful, and very cool. Thanks David! Hope to finally meet you in Vegas next week,

Nice discovery.

This also works with Nero. But I did't know it did until reading your post. The renaming of the file is key to making it work.

It's rendering now, and appears to have scene detection as well.

Maybe not.................

CineformHD will work with any of the MPEG players that use DirectShow filters including PowerDVD7 Deluxe or Ultra, Nero 7 Ultra, or Elecard MPEG Player + AVCHD plugin.

That is correct. I was looking for the cheapest addition to make everything work. Are any other option available for less than $50?

A lot of folks already have PowerDVD 7 and Nero 7. That's why I mentioned them. If someone doesn't have a player, then the Elecard is pretty cheap. Perhaps one of the Ulead products like Movie Factory would also work, but I haven't tried it. I also hear there is an inexpensive MainConcept plugin for Premiere Elements 3 that might also work.

In Elecard, what are you conveting the AVCHD files to?

Then you are taking that file into HDlink to convert into Cineform AVI?

So a double render?

Thanks.

No, only one render that is effectively none (being that it is performs like uncompressed.) All we are doing is using the Elecard (or any other DShow) decoder to decompress the higher compression AVCHD it something more editable and more robust.

I spent the day editing several very long training and music AVCHD videos shot on my SD1 using the Cineform transcoder instead of Nero transcode to MPEG-2. It was an absolute joy compared to dealing with the long transcode and slow editing of the high bitrate MPEG-2 I was generating with Nero.

This is really fantastic stuff David, unless something goes very wrong in the next two weeks of the Cineform trial, I'll gladly buy a copy and never look back. Thank you for bringing this to our attention!

Cheers,

Michael
Edit/Delete Message

Awesome, does it work with Vista???

Awesome, does it work with Vista???

We are still dealing with installation issues with Vista. It will be about a month before we address Vista with our tools, primarily because most of the editing apps haven't be rev'd for Vista yet.

I must be missing something (brain cells or intelligence).

Are you using Elecard to convert the AVCHD files?

Perhaps I need to be lead along.

Thanks.

Derek,

your *.m2ts files are MPEG4 compressed. They will no be viewable unless uncompressed. Today's PC don't have a MPEG4 decoder, so you can use the Elecard decoder, or the Nero decoder and PowerDVD decoder. With a decoder present you can now view your MPEG4 *.m2ts files, but you can't edit them practically. To edit them easily you convert them to something else, some convert to MPEG2, but that is slow and somewhat visually destructive, some convert to HUFFYUV or uncompressed, which are non-destructive but the data is up to 50 times bigger then the source. I was proposing converting to CineForm AVI, which are designed for post, visually non-destructive, yet are up to 10 times smaller than uncompressed.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

Derek,

your *.m2ts files are MPEG4 compressed. They will no be viewable unless uncompressed. Today's PC don't have a MPEG4 decoder, so you can use the Elecard decoder, or the Nero decoder and PowerDVD decoder. With a decoder present you can now view your MPEG4 *.m2ts files, but you can't edit them practically. To edit them easily you convert them to something else, some convert to MPEG2, but that is slow and somewhat visually destructive, some convert to HUFFYUV or uncompressed, which are non-destructive but the data is up to 50 times bigger then the source. I was proposing converting to CineForm AVI, which are designed for post, visually non-destructive, yet are up to 10 times smaller than uncompressed.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

Thanks David.

I currently edit on Vegas 7 and have Cineform that works great when capturing footage from my FX1. But how are you using HDlink and Elecard to get a Cineform AVI out of AVCHD?

I must be missing something very simple. And feeling like a chump.....;)

HDlink for HDV, uses the Elecard MPEG2 decoder to help convert HDV to CineForm AVI. All that is different now is we can use the Elecard MPEG4 decoder for the same purpose. This is all invisible to the operator, HDLink will find a suitable decoder and convert the image to CineForm.

So I can take an AVCHD stream, load it into HDlink (version 3.4.1 build 36) and then click 'convert' and HD link will convert the AVCHD to Cineform AVI?

If I change the file name, and click on "All supported media files" the AVCHD file is unavailable.

Thanks again for the technical assistance.

Selected "All Files (*.*)" and you will be able to convert it. It will be to the "All supported..." list in the next release (called NEO HDV.)

Still can't get it to work. Here's what I'm doing.

1. change original avchd file to test.avchd
2. open Cineform HDLink 2.2.5
3. Elecard and support software is installed.
4. Click on "convert"
5. Click on "all" files, and click test.avchd
6. Click "start"

I get a "progress" bar with no blue bars like when you convert normal m2t files. Then it says conversion done, but it shows up as 0 bytes and no file in the export folder.

Then the capture log says the following...

Using Moonlight/Elecard PMEG components
Using MPEG audio decoder 3
Using Super-Threaded Conversion
Convert Done

Will that file play in Window MediaPlayer (use open width..) If it doesn't the file or your Elecard installation isn't correct.

Derek,
Do you have another computer you could try it on? I have the same problem with my desktop but it works fine on my laptop. The laptop is using Nero 7 filters. I've tried the desktop with Nero 7 and Elecard and still have the same problem. Funny thing is, HDLink will convert the audio. Gives me a 28KB audio file but no video.

It's something with the software load and may be hard to troubleshoot. I'm running XP Pro on the desktop and XP Home on the laptop. Might have something to do with it.

Derek,
Do you have another computer you could try it on? I have the same problem with my desktop but it works fine on my laptop. The laptop is using Nero 7 filters. I've tried the desktop with Nero 7 and Elecard and still have the same problem. Funny thing is, HDLink will convert the audio. Gives me a 28KB audio file but no video.

It's something with the software load and may be hard to troubleshoot. I'm running XP Pro on the desktop and XP Home on the laptop. Might have something to do with it.


Interesting. I have Nero 7 and Elecard on my editing PC. Maybe the Nero is somehow blocking it? I do have another computer, maybe I will try it on the old dog.

Thanks.

to help debug download GraphEdit (http://www.stokebloke.com/video/wmv2avi.php). Run GraphEdit then drop your m2ts file on the window. You will see something like this attached image. If you have a suitable Demux, video and audio decoder the "graph" will build and play.

I removed Nero from the editing computer. Now Cineform just crashes every time I open it and try to convert files.

Weird.

Re-install your CineForm components as Nero took something out. Verify that it works again for HDV media, then try the GraphEdit test I just posted.

I removed and reinstalled Cineform, no luck. I used Graphedit, no luck.

Any other suggestions?

GarphEdit, no luck? It wasn't to make things work, it was to determine way things weren't. What graph did it build?

GarphEdit, no luck? It wasn't to make things work, it was to determine way things weren't. What graph did it build?

OK, I dropped a file into GraphEdit. "Some of the streams are in an unsupported format."

06.m2ts (output)-(input)Elecard Pmeg Demultiplexer-(in)AC3Filter-(out)Audio Input (rendered)

So it is missing the MPEG Decoder on the Graph. So there are no 'arrows out' of the h.264. So obviously it is not rendering the video.

I clicked on the blue square to try to 'insert a filter into graph', but haven't found the appropriate filter yet.

This suggested you haven't install the Elecard player (or similar.) Or you PC will not let you install those components. Or you have something else that is killing Elecard. Sorry I can't help with that, you will need to contact Elecard or the vendor of the components that aren't appearing in GraphEdit.

This suggested you haven't install the Elecard player (or similar.) Or you PC will not let you install those components. Or you have something else that is killing Elecard. Sorry I can't help with that, you will need to contact Elecard or the vendor of the components that aren't appearing in GraphEdit.

Thanks for your help along the way. Much appreciated.

Maybe Vegas 7 will release the AVCHD editing after NAB in a couple weeks.

Maybe they will, but it will be very slow, slower than HDV.

Maybe they will, but it will be very slow, slower than HDV.

Yes, kinda figured that. I'll keep trouble shooting the Cineform, as I prefer editing in that format. Eventually I will crack the case.

Is this possibly a DLL/.AX registration issue? I'm having the same problem as others - Elecard Player will play my M2TS files, but even when renamed, HDLink won't convert the video portion, though the audio does seem to play during conversion. Nero also has worked on the same machine in the past (trial license ran out, though, and I uninstalled it). If it's just a matter of getting the proper AX moved to System32 and registered, which one should I be looking for?

To add to the items up for discussion, this is on a Core Duo iMac, Windows XP Pro via Boot Camp. When I bought my SR1, I believed that Apple would include AVCHD support in the next version of Final Cut Express HD, but I'm now not so sure, since FCE HD 3.5 doesn't support any SD card or hard-disk cameras, only DV and HDV.

Given that the SR1 (and the Panasonic SD1) are undeniably "consumer" cameras, I want to believe that we're not going to be expected to spend $1k+ on an editing solution, and I'm hoping Apple's event at NAB tomorrow will bring good news. If it doesn't, does Cineform + demuxer (assuming I can get one working) help me in any way? I'd love to be able to work with Cineform AVIs in OS X, but it appears that the Mac software will require FCP, and I'm back to spending as much (or more) on an editing solution as I spent on the camera.

Thanks in advance for any pointers/illumination.

Rick

Rick,

We don't require any particular editing tool, your could use MovieMaker or iMovie once everything is in place (although our converstion tools are PC only today.)

David,
I have the same graph in Graphedit on both my desktop and laptop (see pix). Cineform will accept the input file and finish rendering on my laptop, but not my desktop. I get an error on the desktop (see second pix). Any ideas?

No idea. After NAB we might be maybe to send tools to help you debug the issue.

David - I have managed to get Elecard + HDLink working on both of my Macs (a first-generation Macbook 1.83GHz and 17-inch iMac Core Duo 1.83GHz). Definitely the best option I've found so far for getting AVCHD files into a useable format. Still need to experiment on the Mac side - I'm working on converting to 720p/24fps for possible use with AppleTV.

If I were to buy ConnectHD this month, would I be able to switch to the Mac version of NEO HDV when it becomes available? The only issue, of course, is finding an OS X AVCHD demuxer, of which there are currently none that I'm aware of, so it may make sense to stick with the Windows version for the foreseeable future, regardless, but I figured I'd at least ask.

For anybody having problems with the Elecard/Cineform setup, here's what I had to do:

1) if you've used Graphedit to try to figure out why things aren't working, you may have to unregister mpeg2parser.ax; for some reason, many of my files "dead-ended" with this codec (included with graphedit)

2) it appears that the Elecard AVC plugin doesn't actually get registered on install; I had to manually register it by copying the file (mcavcvd.ax) to windows/system32, then typing regsvr32.exe mcavcvd.ax from that folder

After I did this on both of my machines, they both started working fine.

Rick

Spoke too soon - the HDLink-created files crash Quicktime on OS X. I've installed the Mac Beta codecs, and it looks fine until you hit "Play", then the picture seems to divide into quarters, with the same picture in each, and then crashes.

These files play fine in Windows Media Player.

Looking over the specs, it appears that AVCHD support is not included in FCP 6 - DVCPRO HD and XDCAM HD are both mentioned specifically, but AVCHD is conspicuous by its absence. Are we ever going to be able to edit this format? Do Sony or Adobe have anything major to announce at NAB? I could grab the Adobe upgrade package that includes Premiere Pro/After Effects/etc, rather than just Photoshop CS3 Enhanced, but I will need to make that decision pretty soon.

I love my camera, but I think everybody believed there would be a workable editing solution available, or at least announced, by now. Not to mention that just about every option I've tried for converting to an editable format for the Mac has eventually found me plowing, head-first, into another brick wall.

I realize that the Cineform codecs are still beta, and I have confidence that they will eventually give me some options I don't currently have, but I really just want SOMETHING to work right now. I'd bite the bullet on Nero if the conversion to MPEG2 didn't take so long - I'd much rather go the Elecard/Cineform route for the speed of conversion, but I still don't even know how editing will work, since the files crash when I play them.

Rick

We already have a fix for that issue. In the meantime convert with the smart render feature on, this should fix the issue. We have yet determine how PC to Mac upgrades will be done, but we have been good at enabling upgrades in the past.

David - thanks for the quick reply, especially during such a hectic time for you! I will try the Smart Render option.

Also, Adobe has released beta versions of both Premiere Pro CS3 and After Effects CS3 tonight, so I will be exploring those options as well.

Thanks again!

Rick

Looks like Elecard have raised (doubled!) the price on the AVC Plugin, so the Elecard portion of this workflow is now $70 instead of $50.

Do you think they saw this thread?

Looks like Elecard have raised (doubled!) the price on the AVC Plugin, so the Elecard portion of this workflow is now $70 instead of $50.

Do you think they saw this thread?

I can't get my system to work, so I guess it's back to Nero and long decoding times.

One more question..............

When you drag your avchd file into GraphEdit, does it give you the "Some of the streams in this movie are in an unsupported format"?

Still trying to trouble shoot this.

Derek - yes, I did get that error in the process of trying to get things working. I ended up manually unregistering one of the files that comes with GraphEdit, mpeg2parser.ax, as it came up as a codec that seems to cause problems for some people. I was pointed toward that file when some of my AVCHD files wouldn't play, and dragging them onto GraphEdit produced only a two-entry graph, dead-ending at something it was calling the "Ligos MPEG Decoder", or something like that. Googling Ligos turned up mpeg2parser as one of their codecs.

So, I unregistered that file, and I believe I got the "unsupported format" error after that. At that point, I copied the mcavcvd.ax file that is installed by the Elecard AVC plugin (you can find it in Program Files\Common Files\Elecard) into windows\system32, and registered it by hand with regsvr32. At that point, everything started working, and GraphEdit showed the Main Concept/Elecard decoder for all of my AVCHD files.

Rick

Ok, now the decoder appears in graphedit. I'll run it and let you know how it goes.

thanks.

So now I have the same graphedit screen as David posted, and I no longer get the "unsupported format" when dragging the avchd into Graphedit. But Cineform still doesn't output the file?

Graphedit:

02.m2ts-Elecard Mpeg Demultiplexer-MainConcept AVC/H.264 Decoder-Video Renderer

And then the audio chain.

I have been using Nero to convert AVCHD to Cineform with some success.

1. Drop clip on Nero time line.
2. Click export.
3. Choose AVI export template.
4. At "Video Compressor" choose Cineform HD Codec V2.5
5. Configure as you please.
6. Export.

Works most of the time. Funny thing I'm learning about Nero, is for some reason, some AVCHD files it will not encode. Others work fine, but some are cursed. I get "run time" errors on some files. It's annoying, and can stop you cold in your tracks. But for me, for now, it works better than the Elecard.

At that point, I copied the mcavcvd.ax file that is installed by the Elecard AVC plugin (you can find it in Program Files\Common Files\Elecard) into windows\system32, and registered it by hand with regsvr32. At that point, everything started working, and GraphEdit showed the Main Concept/Elecard decoder for all of my AVCHD files.

Rick

Thank's very much for that advice Rick. It fixed the problem that I'd been tearing my hair out over for about 2 days.