i put the camera through some tests with dvrack (non-hd) last week. watched the histogram through various modes and settings, locking exposure when needed for comparisons. some conclusions:

(1) cinemode definitely gives you a more linear exposure result, and it looks like more useable dynamic range. highlights don't clip as early; there are more detail in blacks. unlike the experience of someone in another thread: i see blacks at 0.
(2) the "custom" effects setting gives you more dynamic range if you lower the contrast to -1 in cinemode and tv modes (the ones that i tested). this is unlike the contrast control in, say, the panasonic gs400 which simply lowers the output range!
(3) it looks like the "brightness" in custom effects controls the auto-exposure... i set this to -1 because i prefer to keep the exposure out of the highlights as much as possible and postprocess for a less abrasive treatment of highlights, trading off, of course, more noise.
(4) this is a nasty one: when i perform a camera tilt (up and down motion) in cinemode i get noticeable transient image warping (a frame is squashed about 3% horizontally--it's skinnier for a frame or two) . when i get time i'll post an example. i can live with this though. it is an amazing camera.

some workflow comments:

- as noted in many posts: sony vegas doesn't yet support pull-down removal for this camera because of the missing flag in the mpeg stream and vegas's inability to force pull-down removal when it doesn't automatically detect it... so unless you do something else, you'll be looking at a gross 3-2 cadence.
- after reading one of david newman's posts about the hv20 and pull-down removal, the somethign else i decided to do was buy connect hd (had used the trial version a long time ago for a multi-cam hd project and was impressed). if you push the pull-down removal button you'll get beautiful 24p output that plays full-speed even on my not-latest hardware. (as an aside, i just upgraded to windows media player v11, before that with v10 it didn't quite play full-screen and full-speed).
- i use connect hd to capture footage and convert directly into CFHD without leaving behind an mt2s. it works pretty well although sometimes i get hangs during the capture (i need to file a ticket for that). it also looks like connect hd stops capturing and goes into convert mode whenever the total file size in the TEMP directory that it creates during capture equals 4gb, using in its calculations even leftover files from hangs (need to file a ticket for that too).

other observations:

- slight barrel distortion when full wide angle
- no noticeable chromatic abberation on wide (not like the xh-a/g1 with it's red-green separation)
- noise in lowlight is much more luma-oriented and agreeable than other cameras i've used (hvx200 for example).
- you couldn't bring this thing into a professional shoot without a bunch of black paint and a mattbox and important-looking things connected to it (and maybe lots of mumbling of "state of the art" and "hot technology")
- killer combination when paired with a merlin
- i have 24p slowmo footage from 60i-->60p that looks very very similar to almost identical footage i shot with the hvx200. remind me to post that comparison too. this camera is a ridiculous bargain.

Thanks for this update. Very useful info.

Thanks for this Ali

Can you confirm what modifications (if any) can be made when using the cine preset? Can you adjust the sharpness for example?

Yes thanks Ali. Good info. Hoping a Vegas update is released in the next few weeks to handle pulldown removal for Sony V1U 24p files. The consensus seems to be that will work for 24p files from the HV20 too.

Thanks for the very in depth input on the HV20. I'll be looking forward to seeing the test footage.

Lots of good info, Ali. I'm particularly interested in your observation that:

the "custom" effects setting gives you more dynamic range if you lower the contrast to -1 in cinemode and tv modes



(1) cinemode definitely gives you a more linear exposure result, and it looks like more useable dynamic range. highlights don't clip as early; there are more detail in blacks. unlike the experience of someone in another thread: i see blacks at 0.

You may be referring to my comments. My first observation of this was in comparing two clips (here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=650373&postcount=23) by eye. Because I was shocked that the blacks in the cinemode clip didn't look quite black enough, I pulled a still from that shot and looked at it in Photohop which is where I found 'proof' (if you want to call it that) that there were no real blacks. I looked at both the histogram and also used the eyedropper to get info on the very darkest places in the frame and found no pixels that were completely 0.

There are areas of that frame which are looking into the depths of darkness as far as I can tell, which is why I figured there'd be some kind of pure blackness. The comparisons that Chris posted did show blacks, but he had also tweaked the exposure down so I'm presuming that was the reason.

Can you post a clip of cinemode without any exposure or contrast adjustments? I'd be interested to see since, so far the stuff I've seen in un-tweaked cinemode looks to me like the blacks aren't quite there.

Thanks again for your post. Great info.

(4) this is a nasty one: when i perform a camera tilt (up and down motion) in cinemode i get noticeable transient image warping (a frame is squashed about 3% horizontally--it's skinnier for a frame or two) . when i get time i'll post an example. i can live with this though. it is an amazing camera.

I've seen this too - any quick movement really, pans or tilts, and the image lags and distorts a bit. I had a wide-angle lens on, and it made it even more apparent. Just one of those things that it's good to be aware of and work around. It's a CMOS thing. (For instance, we all know that low light happens, and wind while outside makes it hard to hear someone talking in an interview - no biggie - we are aware and work around those facts of life.)

- you couldn't bring this thing into a professional shoot without a bunch of black paint and a mattbox and important-looking things connected to it (and maybe lots of mumbling of "state of the art" and "hot technology")

I agree.. but, I'm going to show up with it. Most likely with a Z1U in tow as well, but, I won't lie - I prefer the Canon's image. I'm dressing mine up with Carbon Fiber rails, a matte box, filters, an external 8" LCD screen and a XLR shotgun mic, 50' component cables, etc, so it'll be hidden in the sense that an average joe won't know where the actual camera ends and the fluff/extra candy begins. Where I can pull it off, the Z1U will most likely be a fake A camera, and instead play a B camera roll. Yes, I'm serious.

- i have 24p slowmo footage from 60i-->60p that looks very very similar to almost identical footage i shot with the hvx200. remind me to post that comparison too. this camera is a ridiculous bargain.

I'd love to see that!

I'm going to show up with it. Most likely with a Z1U in tow as well, but, I won't lie - I prefer the Canon's image. I'm dressing mine up with Carbon Fiber rails, a matte box, filters, an external 8" LCD screen and a XLR shotgun mic, 50' component cables, etc, so it'll be hidden in the sense that an average joe won't know where the actual camera ends and the fluff/extra candy begins.

Make sure you post up a photo as soon as you add all these bits and pieces!

i put the camera through some tests with dvrack (non-hd) last week. watched the histogram through various modes and settings, locking exposure when needed for comparisons. some conclusions:

Very nice and encouraging report. Any guessitimate on latitude vs an HVX200?

Very nice and encouraging report. Any guessitimate on latitude vs an HVX200?

thanks for all the comments. i haven't compared the hvx dynamic range to the hv20. it wouldn't be fair for me to make any guesses about it off the top of my head. the default hv20 gamma curve looks like it's the standard video curved-cliff, and it's hard to extract details from highlights. the cine-gamma mode looks much more linear. i'm sure at some point i or someone else will compare them directly. sorry!

Thanks for this Ali

Can you confirm what modifications (if any) can be made when using the cine preset? Can you adjust the sharpness for example?

yes there is a separate "custom" effects setting that lets you control: color, contrast, sharpness, brightness (which looks like exposure comp for the auto exp). this custom effects setting is active through cine-mode. unfortunately each setting can only vary through -1, 0 or 1. pretty crude. but better than nothing.

yes there is a separate "custom" effects setting that lets you control: color, contrast, sharpness, brightness (which looks like exposure comp for the auto exp). this custom effects setting is active through cine-mode. unfortunately each setting can only vary through -1, 0 or 1. pretty crude. but better than nothing.

You mean if you want to adjust color, contrast, sharpness and brightness you can only choose between -1, 0 and 1?! I thought it would be more like from 0 to 20.

yes there is a separate "custom" effects setting that lets you control: color, contrast, sharpness, brightness (which looks like exposure comp for the auto exp). this custom effects setting is active through cine-mode. unfortunately each setting can only vary through -1, 0 or 1. pretty crude. but better than nothing.

Thanks Ali - do you know if the -1 compared with +1 setting for sharpness affects the image noticably?

You mean if you want to adjust color, contrast, sharpness and brightness you can only choose between -1, 0 and 1?! I thought it would be more like from 0 to 20.

The jumps between -1, 0 and +1 are pretty noticeable and bigger than you'd think. In "EXP" mode (which is essentially manual exposure on the HV20) the range is usually -11>>+11.

Thanks Ali - do you know if the -1 compared with +1 setting for sharpness affects the image noticably?

Yes, as I mentioned in the previous post, changing the custom settings does affect the image pretty noticeably. Enough that right now I'm leaving sharpness and contrast set to 0, color depth is +1 for a more saturated look.

- killer combination when paired with a merlin


Someone (maybe in the support sub-forum) claimed that the combination is wind-sensitive, owing to its low overall weight and low moment of inertia. Did you notice any issues along this line?

Thanks Peter

I really love the look of the cine mode in 24p apart from the softness/lack of sharpness. If the sharpness setting at 0 or +1 would rectify that I would be really pleased!

Is anyone in a position to demo that (24p sharpness 0 v +1) and upload a clip?

Many thanks in advance
Fergus

Has anyone figured out if there's a way to lock/set the shutter in cine mode? All my lowish-lighting shooting with cine mode has resulted in 1/24 shutter, which ain't cinema.

-Stu

Has anyone figured out if there's a way to lock/set the shutter in cine mode? All my lowish-lighting shooting with cine mode has resulted in 1/24 shutter, which ain't cinema.

-Stu

hi stu,

welcome to these boards! loved your vfx work in day after tomorrow and pirates.

some people more clever than me in another post figured out that if you insert a mini-SD card in the camera and push the photo button half-way, the camera will show you the current shutter speed and aperture settings. if you can get the autoexposure system to set the aperture JUST below fully-open, you know the point at which gain is being added (1.5dB per tick).

someone else, i think barry green, suggested that when aimed at the white screen of his cell phone, the camera's autoexposure always selects 1/48th second shutter speed. and you can apparently lock-in the shutter speed by switching exposure to manual (pushing in the joystick button, then clicking up on "EXP," but you already know that part).

i imagine that a combination of using a known brightness calibrator and the shutter half-way button test could give you effectively full manual control, albeit at some inconvenience.

just a few more external controls on this camera and slightly more custom picture and gamma curve controls (and maybe a black body), and this camera would probably kill everything under $5k in the indie market.

You can actually go to wide open. But you need to come from f/2.0 and then the next stop in exposure up, so it is the first exposure level with f/1.8. Then you also know there is no gain.

The guides are designed for Tv mode, with the lower dynamic range compared to CINE mode.

For cine mode, you can do the same.

Point at some light bright enough to give you the wanted shutter speed (half-press photo button with a miniSD car in the camcorder the see shutter/aperture). Outdoor, somewhere in direction of the sun can give you a faster shutter, or use another light source.

Press the stick, when it says EXP, push it up, and you are now in manual exposure control mode with a locked shutter speed, and exposure giving you control of aperture. First stop at f/1.8 is = no gain. If you continue adding exposure, beyond the first f/1.8 then the camera is using gain (digitally amplifying image and thus adding noise). You might be able to add the gain later youself, maybe the camera will do better. I do not know as I have not tested it yet.

There is one exemption. If you lock at say 1/500s, f/8+ or more, then the exposure wil actually slow down exposure as well. In PAL land, it seems like it will slow down shutter to 1/50s before opening the aperture.

Same if you lock at f/1.8 1/25s (indoor), and then decrease exposure, then it will start slow down shutter until it hits 1/50s before it it starts closing the aperture.

So Cine mode has a target shutter speed of 1/50s (PAL land). If it goes slower, it will be because f/1.8 is not fast enough, and you will get in-camera gain.

So you need to add more light to get 1/50s (or 1/60s in NTSC land). Or you just lock the shutter speed, and suffers from the gain, or manually adjusts the gain away by the exposure control and do the gain in your post processing. But it will be different, as the MPEG2 compression probably makes big dark areas into same color areas, but I do not know for sure. I have not tested it.

Tv mode is the best bet if you want shutter control, then you control aperture (and later gain) directly using the exposure control

I just picked one of these cameras up and after a little testing, all the mentioned observations appear to be true. I dont know if anyone mentioned it but here is the exposure priority for different modes:

24p cine (min f8@1/360 | max f1.8@1/12)
1/360-1/48 -> f8-f1.8 ->1/48-1/24 -> gain 1 - 7 units -> 1/24-1/12

60i cine (min f8@1/360 | max f1.8@1/60)
1/360-1/250 -> f8-f5.6 -> 1/250-1/120 -> ??? 1-10 units -> f5.6-f1.8 -> 1/120-1/60 -> gain 1-7 units

Anyone please correct these if there are errors. I have no idea what those empty 10 exposure notches are about, anyone else know? I can't imagine it is gain...

anyway, overall this seems like a pretty good priority to me. It is nice that f1.8@1/120 is possible in 60i mode for the sake of turning 60i into 60p for slowmotion. And in my mind, 1/24 isnt a bad cine-like shutter if necessary. I would like a little more control over the shutter wide open in cine mode though. It would be nice to be able to shoot wide open and bring up the shutter to something like 1/100 for high action stuff without having to sacrifice cine curves or 24p, but it looks like if you really want to do that, youd have to sacrifice one or the other.

Nevermind, I dont think those minimum numbers are right, there are lower exposure settings, it just wasnt bright enough in my room to access them. The rest is still right though I think.