Okay, it has been almost a 2 weeks since I have come up with questions, been reading the forums, got answers, got more questions. Been awaiting my activation to post them. So now i hope this is not to long.

I will put a list of questions that I have (hopefully remembering them all) then I will put a short paragraph about me, and my use, this way here you will have an idea of what I want, BEFORE reading who I am, then you can answer that way instead of just skimming through WHO I AM then answering what I want.

1. Am i ever going to notice (enough) of a difference between the HV20 and the XH-A1? (My idea is this. The HV20 is a Point-n-shoot 8mp camera, while the XH-A1 is the 8mp DSLR (without lens interchangeability obviously) while, the PnS camera has the POTENTIAL in SOME shots to rival the quality of the A1, the A1 has the manual control/settings that can give you great quality "everytime" or more often.

2. Is there a difference from going directly to tape or having it hooked up to a laptop/desktop with Terabytes of storage? (other than the fact that you can record LONGER on the HD than on the TAPE?) (I hear tape is a cheaper medium to keep backups on) (I am just trying to save the "heads" of the camera by plugging it in)

3. I can get the Bogen 501 Model 351mvb2 for 352.54, is this okay and worth it for the XH-A1 (if i decide to go that way)?

4. Tapes. I can get panasonic HD tapes for about 4 bucks each, should i go this way or should i go the MQ/AMQ way? Will i see a difference?

5. I have some lenses for a Rebel XT, is there an adaptor for the XH-A1 that i can get to use those lenses? Or do i not want to do that?

6. What are some "better" programs to use for editing/exporting/rendering? (MAC and PC)


Okay I think that is all the questions. Now on to me.

I am not a professional photographer or a videographer. I can get the HV20 for 830.84+tax, so that makes that camera a CHEAP choice as apposed to the ~3400 for the A1. As I said i have the rebel xt, and I just do mainly normal pictures with it, not a buisness standpoint. I have taken no classes, just mess with the camera and try and do my best. I like having the control over the camera so when i do learn something new I can actually use it.

For the video, I plan on just using it randomly, no specifics in need. But i want the "HD" quality from it, so if i do decide to do a "short" or a documentary, or a simple indie or what not, I have the capacity to do so. Will this be achieved by the hv20? I can use either a PC or a MAC laptop, and up for suggestions on which programs to use.

I hope I covered everything, if you need any more answers/questions for me, please ask. I would like to have opinions of pros/users of these cameras and in the field.

the HV20 at the price comes from my employer, (accomodations) so its from a 100% reputable company (pretty much direct from canon).
EDIT//
What if I want to eventually do weddings (which is my plan) will i be able to with the HV20 or better off with the xh-a1?

Thanks.

Get the HV20 it will be fine and a good place to start video. The price you quoted seems scandalously cheap make sure it's from a reputable source. There are lots of sCam stores that sell you the camera for a low price but leave the accessories out of the box and charge you extra for them later. Do a web search on who you're buying it from.

Panasonic tapes are fine.

Get a Mac and use iMovie to capture and edit and iDVD burn DVDs the software comes with the Mac and works great.

Your EOS lenses won't fit on the HV20 unless you buy an DOF adapter and even then you'd want to use something other than Canon EOS lenses because there is no external aperture control on EOS lenses. Don't do this at this point in your video exploits.

Get a Libec LS-22 instead of the Bogen it has smoother movement and is about the same price.

I agree with the above post. It sounds like the HV20 will be good enough for what you want to do. It's a point-and-shoot camera but has some manual controls. The XH A1 is a bit pricey for the type of usage you mention. A single chip camera may give you high resolution, but it's not going to give you the overall quality in terms of latitude (handling contrast), control, etc.

For amateur use, all the single chip HDV cameras are fine. You did a comparison between a point-and-shoot digital still camera and a digital SLR, and that's a pretty good analogy. You can get the same resolution with the little pocket camera as you can with a Canon 30D, but you can get better pictures under more different conditions with the 30D...however, if you're taking photos of your kids opening Christmas presents, the snapshot camera may be better.

You can't use EOS lenses on a fixed lens camera like the XH A1. You can use them on the XL1 and XL2, but there's a big focal length multiplication factor--in other words, a 50mm lens from a 35mm camera is going to act like about a 350mm lens on the video camera. There are wide angle and telephoto adapters available for the fixed lens cameras, but the wide angle 20:1 zoom of the XH A1 makes them not necessary except for rare situations.

I just got the HV20. I have a Sony FX1, which is similar to A1 without the special frame rates. See my commentary here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=90504

HV20 reduces your ability to control things, but you can still have a lot of control. Its viewfinder leave a lot to be desired.

You Rebel (if they are standard Canon compatible) can be used in 35mm adapter for film like results. As far as the HV20, my jury is still out on how well that can be employed with it.....

the HV20 at the price comes from my employer, (accomodations) so its from a 100% reputable company (pretty much direct from canon).

What if I want to eventually do weddings (which is my plan) will i be able to with the HV20 or better off with the xh-a1?

Also any reccomendations on books/videos to start with to help improve my skills and things i can start with?

if you can afford an xh-a1, get that. it's clearly the better cam.
always buy the best gear that you can afford.

i wouldn't solicit paying gigs with an HV20. it seems like a nice back-up
and deck, but it's just a consumer cam. clients will question it.

Libec tripods... awesome.

Once you choose a tape brand, you should stick with it regardless of price.
i prefer sony.

For working with HD... Vegas on a PC and FCP on a Mac.
I prefer PC and I build my own as per my required specs.

i also shoot stills with a 20D. this adapter will accomdate the EOS lenses.
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.472981/it.A/id.161/.f?sc=2&category=9

if you can afford an xh-a1, get that. it's clearly the better cam.
always buy the best gear that you can afford.

i wouldn't solicit paying gigs with an HV20. it seems like a nice back-up
and deck, but it's just a consumer cam. clients will question it.

Libec tripods... awesome.

Once you choose a tape brand, you should stick with it regardless of price.
i prefer sony.

For working with HD... Vegas on a PC and FCP on a Mac.
I prefer PC and I build my own as per my required specs.

i also shoot stills with a 20D. this adapter will accomdate the EOS lenses.
http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.472981/it.A/id.161/.f?sc=2&category=9

so then it comes down to affordablity of the cameras? quality is not an issue? but merely just the "outcome" i can get from the a1 as apposed to the hv20 where i may be limited later on?



Also side note. I am probably going to be doing nature/outdoor shots light and day mostly. Will the a1 out perform the HV20 in this aspect? or is the difference not even going to come close to noticeable but merely nit picky?

if you can afford an f-900, i'd suggest that. you'll be most impressive wedding guy/ outdoorsman on the block.

if not, the xh-a1 is the closest thing you will get to that HD quality right now.

if you have any desire to go professional, don't bother with the HV20.
this is not a suitable camera for a captain of industry.

if you're only going to shoot landscapes and birds for the next few years, the Hv20 would be the ideal choice. those subjects rarely complain that "the camera is too small to be any good."

"quality" "outcome" and "out perform" are very subjective. it's not the camera, it's the talent behind it.

any camera in outdoor sunlight would give even ray charles great results.

You say you are not a pro photographer or videographer and I'm not sure of your level of experience. If you are learning video I would suggest the HV20. Skill is more important than the tool. Learn to shoot, edit, and tell a story with your video. Once you have done that and feel good about your work get the A1. Use the HV20 as backup and as a deck for editing to keep hours of the heads of the expensive camera.

Best of luck and happy shooting

more and more people are suggesting the hv20 to me, but it seems to me personally that i have a stubborned bias about the a1, that i need it.

similarly why i opted for the DSLR for 1000 instead of the PnS @ 400.

I agree with everyone, its the skills behind it that matter. I just dont want to pay 850-900 for this HV20 take it outdoors, and then i get an A1 and take it to the same place and get blown away by the quality of the A1. Is the 3ccd that much of a difference?

As i said I am not a professional, I have a lot to learn. Will i be completely hindered by the HV20's capabilities when learning this new stuff? I am just scared of making a purchase and then being dissapointed with it 3-4 months from now.

if you have any intention of going pro at all or desire the full control of your images, invest in the a1.

you will learn more about shooting and how to control a cam just by using it.
the hv20, being a consumer cam, is what will hinder you from developing a confident sense of being able to control and create the images that you want
to see.

you may also be more inclined to take it seriously if you invest a decent amount of money. further, if you decide this isnt for you, the resale of the a1 will be far greater than the handicam.

you could always buy both and test them out yourself. just purchase from someone with a decent return policy. i buy and return items on a regular basis.

If you are shooting in good light You will not be blown away by the A1.

Yes it has much more manual capability and for that reason can also be much more intimidating for the novice. You stand a better chance of being dissapointed with the A1 (because of this) than with the HV20. If you have the money to spend get the A1 and be prepared for some late night reading. Getting the most from it will take considerable time and effort.

If you are shooting in good light You will not be blown away by the A1.

Yes it has much more manual capability and for that reason can also be much more intimidating for the novice. You stand a better chance of being dissapointed with the A1 (because of this) than with the HV20. If you have the money to spend get the A1 and be prepared for some late night reading. Getting the most from it will take considerable time and effort.

Jim, you say that in "good" light, so if i shoot during the day nature, I will be dissapointed or "not blown away" by the a1 in comparision to the hv20 or in general? Are you saying that it works better in "lower light" situtations?

I have seen some clips from the A1 at night, and they look remarkably great.

So you are saying that with the "lack" of knowledge, the A1 will disperform for my lack of understanding. However the HV20 will auto correct this. Then when (and if) i learn, the HV20 will lack and the A1 will out perform?

Eric, you clearly want the A1. Buy it.

If you are looking for someone to rise up and say "The HV20 is better than the A1!!!"..it aint going to happen.

Bottom line, both cameras out in the day on "auto" shooting the same thing will probably produce the same image. Neither will blow you away. The A1 on the other hand gives you the opportunity, with knowledge and patience, to blow others away.

If you don't like the A1, just return it.

Bottom line, both cameras out in the day on "auto" shooting the same thing will probably produce the same image. Neither will blow you away. The A1 on the other hand gives you the opportunity, with knowledge and patience, to blow others away..

That was the most information i got in the shortest amount of writing. That was what i wanted to know.

I was wanting a confirmation of my assumption of the camera.

Thank you Eric.

Somebody mentioned wildlife shooting. The HV20 only has a 10:1 lens. The XH A1 has a 20:1, which would be better for shooting birds and things.

"Hello. BH Photo? I want you to ship me the A1! AY VUN! Like the steak sauce! No! I'm not putting it on my steak! After this,I can't afford steaks. Thank you."


see this article on the H1, most of it still applies to the A1 except uncompressed HD:

http://dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/articles/article13.php

i want to thank everyone for the input on the matter, i think the only thing that was "hindering" my choice was that i couldnt "understand" the price difference. But now that its explained out, its outweighed the same way i did with my camera. The ability to perform with the know how behind it. is where it shines.

Thank you all again.

to add another question here.

If i dont have a "tripod" or "lights" to setup and i do nature video, will my quality hinder with the A1 down to the hv20 quality?

I believe its Steve Dempsy who shoots those awsome shots of nature in the morning. and he uses an A1. but he uses a tripod. So i wonder if it would be the same "quality" just more jittery per se.

LOL! I think you wanted someone to agree with your decision up front to get the A1. Ha ha You will enjoy it but there will be a learning curve.

Have fun

Whether you are doing extreme closeup macrovideography (e.g., insects), or long range shots (e.g., tigers. At least I hope you shoot tigers at long range!) a tripod will improve your shots.

You really need something to provide a sturdy platform.

Lights won't make any difference unless your subject is within, say, 20 feet or so. Not so important unless your wildlife shooting's done underwater.

So which way are you leaning?

I am inclined to recommend the A1 over the HV20 also as it really allows you to learn and understand the physics and relationships between shutter, iris, gain and focal length. Understanding these and being able to control these will make you a better "image" catcher. Barry Green is currently pulling his hair out trying to figure out how the HV20 works using all of these options. You cannot really control them on this camera. You can set the iris, but the camera picks the gain. It is a gamble. Just like a point and shoot digital camera except they use flash to get proper exposure most of the time. Video cameras add gain....

As a point of reference, I have an XLh1 over an A1 because I wanted all the belles and whistle to be at my fingertips. I want all my gain settings on a dial and all my WB settings right there. I also like changing lenses often and I really like the form factor more. However, the A1 is just as good as the H1 except for in certain shooting environments.

The truth is, I felt I could shoot better footage with the H1. Not because it is technically superior...but because it feels really right in my hands. The A1 felt toyish to me. Now the HV20 feels even more toyish.

I hate to say it but you may need to get your hands on these cameras and see how they feel. The HV20 is so small and has solittle mass it just feels like...well...nothing! Personally, I just can't see doing anything professional with the HV20 other than using it for a backup or for B roll. Maybe behind the scenes footage?

Still, you could get away with it in certain environments but if you have someone paying you for your work then it might not have the right image. (physical appearance to client).

Oh.....to be blatantly honest the HV20 will not cut it as a main wedding camera. If you want to do anything remotely professional you need to be able to manually control your camera. Weddings are one of the hardest things to shoot because nothing is scripted, nothing ever goes as planned and the lighting almost always yanks. This is where professional features are really important because you do "not" have the ability to manipulate your environment to make your camera look good. You have to get the best image you can using the tools you have. I just don;t feel the HV20 is the right tool to try and pull decent imagery out of poor shooting environments.

Sorry for the ramble!

Peace!

Marty, your ramblings are well worth it. I want to hear things from all aspects.

Me, i was leaning towards the a1 from the start. then people saying that i should LEARN with the hv20 made me go that way. Then seeing the quality out of the hv20 made me move further than way, then reading about what you just posted made sense as well.

I guess in the end i should plan on getting both of them.

But should i get the hv20 first, learn with that, then move to the a1? or get the a1 first then move to the ......by then maybe hv30?

First, having shot only a few wedding, I agree the HV20 is no wedding cam... except maybe in as a third choir loft or fixed camera.
Its simply to hard to dial in a proper exposure on the fly.

Second. I believe there is a bit more control than you are indicating. You can go shutter priority, to set a shutter speed you want, or go aperature priority to set the f stop you want. Then you adjust your exposure form there, up or down. You are right that you aren't sure what is happening at that point, but my assumption is that before the high gain is reached, the camera will try to adjust in reasonable shutter speeds and/or f stops, depending on priority selected. And if in the manual mode, you select AE, you will have the camera selecting both. I think Canon is concerned enought that it would be leaving heavy gain setting to the lowest light situations.... just my opinion....

Chris,
I was being brief in my description of what control you have. I was citing one example. The fact is, there does not appear to be a way to control all aspects. You can set some, but other are always automatic. So yes...there is a mild ammount of control but nothing approaching A1 type control.

And I agree with you agreeing with me! This camera will only serve me as a balcony/choir loft type of shot that I might cut to if the other main cameras have screwed up footage. It just does not cut it as a main camera....at least not for event work.

I moved from using a little Sony DCR-TV33 (handycam) with everything buried in a touch screen menu - and not enough control, to buying the A1 based on lots of research, gut instinct and a good understanding of manual controls (albeit not much actual practice).

I think I have learned so much so fast with the A1 that I would recommend it to almost anyone with the desire to learn and make excellent video.

I think I would have been dissapointed if I went with anything less. Having come to terms with the camera I am now eagerly looking forward to expanding on it's capabilities with more filters and a lens adapter like the M2 or Brevis.

A1 ....it's soooo good. :)

[QUOTE=Marty Hudzik;655573]Chris,
I was being brief in my description of what control you have. I was citing one example. The fact is, there does not appear to be a way to control all aspects. [QUOTE]

Marty, Regarding HV20:

While I agree you may not know what the setting is in a read out, I think this does give a bit of a false impression. If you set to one of the priority modes, you absolutely control that mode. Then when you switch on the joy stick access to the exposure control, you clearly get direct control of the remaining means of altering the light imput- by nudging that toggle either plus or minus. This is no different than my FX1 or the A1, in that if, for instance, you set your shutter speed. Even gain in the FX1, and I think the A1, has an automatic component that must be physically disabled.

The impression you are also giving is that the exposure, in no matter what mode, will continue to adjust automatically. My experience is that is not so. Once you toggle on the exposure control with the joy stick, that locks the exposure until you move out of that mode.

The bottom line is that you can only take control of exposure once the camera has determined its auto settings. I want to be able to turn off gain and visibly see that it is not on. It is a crap shoot to determine when it is on or not. Barry Green is deriving some formulas to try to determine when it is on or not. It is a complicated set of numbers that change based on the light available at the time you hit the exposure button.

So while you can control the overall exposure, you have no control of how the camera chooses to engage the gain. It is a good camera. But it has serious limitations.

And you hot the nail on the head on one point. You said the A1 and FX1 both have this "auto gain" feature that you have to disable. That is the issue. You cannot disable it on the HV20. The camera always decides how much gain it wants to add. It takes a lot of trickery and knowledge to get it tricked into a setting where it is not engaged. This is all avoided on cameras that allow you to contorl the gain yourself.

I ordered both cams (XH A1 and HV20) from Zotz on Monday and got them on Thursday. I used both cams to shoot a ballet performance Friday night. The HV20 was locked down for a wide shot and I used the A1 for my mid shot pan and zoom. I discovered the HV20 turns off the auto gain in "spotlight" mode. So my blacks were black with no noise from excessive gain. I also put the XH A1 in "spotlight" mode. The video from the two cams will cut together very well with this setting.

The HV20 is no low light performer, though. I tried to use it at the cast party as I didn't want to be in anyone's face with a big cam. Too much noise to be useful in the dimly lit room. I gave up and decided to enjoy the food instead of pulling out the A1:-)

The HV20 lacks the controls. Although I've only had my XH A1 for 36 hours, I'm loving the control it affords. Even so, it is easier to control than my PD150. I like the layout of the manual controls and the focus- zoom-iris rings.

However, when I go to Italy this summer, do you think I will take my XH A1? Never! my wife would leave me on the street corner and go shopping! I will be quite happy to take along the HV20.

Try shooting in Tv mode for example, & if you can find a scene you know the auto gain wouldn't kick in, then at that point hit the EXP (Exposure Lock) button... then the auto gain will be disabled IF you stay in EXP. The second you hit the EXP again to take it out of that mode it reverts back to auto gain when it "thinks" it needs it. The A1 works the same way as well & I would assume the HV20 would also.

The only thing with this method though is that you're now forced to using the cumbersome scroll wheel for aperture control.

Bill

more and more people are suggesting the hv20 to me, but it seems to me personally that i have a stubborned bias about the a1, that i need it.

similarly why i opted for the DSLR for 1000 instead of the PnS @ 400.

I agree with everyone, its the skills behind it that matter. I just dont want to pay 850-900 for this HV20 take it outdoors, and then i get an A1 and take it to the same place and get blown away by the quality of the A1. Is the 3ccd that much of a difference?

As i said I am not a professional, I have a lot to learn. Will i be completely hindered by the HV20's capabilities when learning this new stuff? I am just scared of making a purchase and then being dissapointed with it 3-4 months from now.


I have seen a number of A1 owners comment on how shockingly close the HV10/HV20 can be to the A1 in picture quality. Of course you'll get a more consistent result with the A1 if you know what you're doing. But don't forget there are manual controls on the HV20 too....just not nearly as many. But when you see the picture quality of the HV20, you'll be stunned.

I for one think it produces a superior HD picture to my Sony FX7.

The impression you are also giving is that the exposure, in no matter what mode, will continue to adjust automatically. My experience is that is not so. Once you toggle on the exposure control with the joy stick, that locks the exposure until you move out of that mode.

You are correct Chris. There is more manual control than many people think on the HV20.

You are correct Chris. There is more manual control than many people think on the HV20.

I know how much manual control there is. It's just that it is less that the A1 and the H1. I don't care if the FX1 or HC1 or whatever has less amd this is closer to those controls or better. From where I am standing the HV20 is missing key manual controls that I need. Does it do ok when using as a handycam? Probably, but in a professional shooting environmet do you really want to be "messin' around" with trying to figure out what exposure setting is going to equal no gain when you should be focusing on getting the shot right? I like my HV20 but the workarounds are a distraction from shooting. I will stick with the right tool for the right job.

Maybe this has been mentioned but a key manual control that makes a difference in every day shooting is the switchable ND filters on the A1 allow shutter speeds that gives video fluidity.

Maybe this has been mentioned but a key manual control that makes a difference in every day shooting is the switchable ND filters on the A1 allow shutter speeds that gives video fluidity.

That helps make my point exactly. These cameras are tools but essentially the individual features could be viewed as tools too. Iris, shutter,focus, ND filters, gain and zoom are all components they we combine to achieve a certain look. Different combinations of these get us the looks we want. We are used to using these in whatever setup we desire. With the HV20 certain ones are tied to the others without our being able to seperate them. We are finding workarounds but again...these are workarounds.

I see it like a carpenter who has 5 tools to do a job but he can only select 3 of them but when he chooses the 3 he wants the other 2 still get used on his project, just he doesn't get to choose how, a computer determines it. Sometimes he says, "hey...that came out alright!" Other times the computer doesn't choose well and a jackhammer gets used where a chisel should have been.

Again. I love the HV20 for what it is. I am trying to get people to have realistic expectations. It takes some darn nice video in a lot of situations. But if you find yourself in one of the ones where it doesn't....you will find it hard to take control of the camera and overcome the problems. At least it won't be nearly as easy as with an A1.

Eric, if you already own a Canon DSLR camera then you'll feel pretty quick at home with the A1.
I own a Canon 10D and most of the manual stuff on the A1 looked familiar to me. There's of course alot of extra's you get because it's video (but for that there's dvinfo and the presets you can use).
My point is that if you want to be in control (like I was when I first went for the 10D (for photo) and later the A1 (for video)), go for the A1. I was not sure what to choose, but I'm very glad I went for the A1.

Thanks Jeremy, I think that is where my mind set has been at. right now I am compiling a list of the accessories ill need and even am picking some of them up. I can only justify an HV20 as a SECOND camera quite easily but not as a primary or first camera!