I am posting this thread not to create controversy, but to give some insight as to what a change in brand might mean to a user unfamiliar with the Canon line.

I've ordered the Canon HV20 as my first Canon. It's due to arrive this week, so I want to give some first reasons for this purchase, and then update you on my choice.

I ordered the HV20 after looking at Sony consumer HDV cams. It was actually prompted by my wife who is probably tired of me lugging my FX1 to all our family affairs. No matter how I tried, I would take the FX1 over my Panosonic GS120 or my VX2000, cause I just wanted opportunity to have HDV. So I load up the aluminum case, tripods, etc, and the SUV is filled up.

I had bought the VX2000 and FX1 over Canon offerings in the past, not so much because I was partial to Sony, but that they seemed like the best offerings at that time. Couple that to the fact that the two used the same batteries, even that my old Digital 8 used, and it seemed like the right progression. And I never had any significant quality or performance issues, and the Sonys were just plain tought. So considering going outside Sony meant a bit of a change to me.

So why choose the HV20 over the HC5 or HC7 ? Price and value. That simple. Value in that the HV20 has more features, including my first chance at working with in camera "24P" if that is what it is. Larger imager too, 3 lux rating, and all at $1,100.00. And I saw some of the images out of the HV10 and HV20, and those were great selling points. Seemed like a no brainer, that I would buy my first Canon.

I am also hoping that this camera might help work with my future 35mm adapter shooting, helping move to a more portable set up. I've seen some 35mm adapter footage from this camera, and it was impressive. While it is more than like a problem I have with my DIY adapter, I can't shake the feeling that there is something in the Sony HDV process that is creating unusual artifacts in the adapter footage I have done thus far. I am hoping that something in the Canon processing might be different, but we shall see.

So there it is, my first Canon is coming, and I will let all know how it works out for me....

I wish I had waited and bought the Canon Hv20, or even the Hv10. I bought a Sony HC3 six months ago. It worked for about two months. Then shut down. I sent it to the Sony Repair Center in Lorado Texas. They informed me that the Camera had corrosion, and Sony has a policy, that if a camera is found with corrosion, they will not honor their warranty. (Which is for only 90 days!).

Sony can not tell me where the corrosion came from, or what may have caused it. (We have never had a corrosion problem before with Sony or Canon products in 15 years).

When I received the Sony HC3 back from the Sony Repair Center there was a unsigned, and undated work order enclosed. Out of curiosity believing that the camera was corroded, we opened the HC3 up. Guess what? No signs of corrosion. All the parts looked shiny and new. We even inspected the inside of the camera with a magnifying glass. There is no corrosion.

That HC3 will be my last Sony Product.

Dave Rice

Chris, I can tell you the single biggest difference between the Canon picture and the Sony picture is the lack of artifacts. This has always bugged me about Sony's approach to video. Their objective is to produce a punchy, overly sharp image. That's great, but artifacts are the by-product of that approach. Obviously the vast majority of consumers simply don't care or don't see these artifacts. But I believe the more trained your eye, the more you see it and are bothered by it. I even see this approach with my Sony FX7.

Viewing the Canon video image was the same feeling I got after owning many Sony digital still cameras and then going to a Canon digital still. It was cleaner, truer and more artifact-free. It was almost totally devoid of the edge enhancement I have so grown to hate.

"edge enhancement"
IE Digital Filter of some kind (sharpen,sharpen edges,Unsharp Mask....home made)
Even really expensive Video cameras have these stoooooopid options...

I have owned both Canon and Sony camcorders. Both companies make great products in my opinion; each usually has advantages in some areas over the other. I have always preferred the color from Canon but I must say that one thing I have found with Sony products is that they are built like tanks --- very durable. I don't see an edge enhancement issue but I rarely shoot on auto and I tend to turn down sharpening anyway (I tend to prefer high definition but only moderate acutance). I can't understand people getting stuck on one brand, though --- When I'm ready to purchase, I'll switch to any brand that I think offers the best product I can afford.

So why choose the HV20 over the HC5 or HC7 ? Price and value.

Even if the HV20 cost $200 more than the HC7, I will still
pick the HV20.

In fact, I still have both the HC7 and HV20 sitting on my
desk right now. The HC7 is beautifully crafted,whil the
HV20 is more toy-like. However, the HV20 beats the HC7
in picture quality.

The HV 20 is Canon Thumbing its nose at the industry it’s testing, think you are about to see most if not all Canons sport a Canon in house Cmos

It sounds as if you're giving birth...
I've found Canons extremely fragile, myself.
Good luck with your newest "arrival"

Although the small Sonys don't 'feel' fragile, I've had several malfunction at an early age. I don't always find a correlation between how a camera 'feels' and it's internal parts quality or longevity. On the other hand my Sony VX2000 is built very well....far better than the small Sonys I've owned.

It sounds as if you're giving birth...
I've found Canons extremely fragile, myself.
Good luck with your newest "arrival"

Yeah, that was my impression when I was looking at VX2000 v. GL1. Tape drives don't seem to be an issue in Sony's. Seems like Canon owners are always waiting for that shoe to drop... Thats why I am becoming initiated to Canon with an $1,100 camera, rather than the A-1 at $ 4K. We shall see, and I am going into this with an open mind.

Yeah, that was my impression when I was looking at VX2000 v. GL1. Tape drives don't seem to be an issue in Sony's. Seems like Canon owners are always waiting for that shoe to drop... Thats why I am becoming initiated to Canon with an $1,100 camera, rather than the A-1 at $ 4K. We shall see, and I am going into this with an open mind.
It’s a bit cheaper now
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=447098&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

I am posting this thread not to create controversy, but to give some insight as to what a change in brand might mean to a user unfamiliar with the Canon line.

I've ordered the Canon HV20 as my first Canon. It's due to arrive this week, so I want to give some first reasons for this purchase, and then update you on my choice.

I ordered the HV20 after looking at Sony consumer HDV cams. It was actually prompted by my wife who is probably tired of me lugging my FX1 to all our family affairs. No matter how I tried, I would take the FX1 over my Panosonic GS120 or my VX2000, cause I just wanted opportunity to have HDV. So I load up the aluminum case, tripods, etc, and the SUV is filled up.

I had bought the VX2000 and FX1 over Canon offerings in the past, not so much because I was partial to Sony, but that they seemed like the best offerings at that time. Couple that to the fact that the two used the same batteries, even that my old Digital 8 used, and it seemed like the right progression. And I never had any significant quality or performance issues, and the Sonys were just plain tought. So considering going outside Sony meant a bit of a change to me.

So why choose the HV20 over the HC5 or HC7 ? Price and value. That simple. Value in that the HV20 has more features, including my first chance at working with in camera "24P" if that is what it is. Larger imager too, 3 lux rating, and all at $1,100.00. And I saw some of the images out of the HV10 and HV20, and those were great selling points. Seemed like a no brainer, that I would buy my first Canon.

I am also hoping that this camera might help work with my future 35mm adapter shooting, helping move to a more portable set up. I've seen some 35mm adapter footage from this camera, and it was impressive. While it is more than like a problem I have with my DIY adapter, I can't shake the feeling that there is something in the Sony HDV process that is creating unusual artifacts in the adapter footage I have done thus far. I am hoping that something in the Canon processing might be different, but we shall see.

So there it is, my first Canon is coming, and I will let all know how it works out for me....

Hi Chris

Looking forward to reading your comments.

See my sig: My little DV Sony is a very nice camera and "feels" GREAT as a fast handling handheld. However, I will say the Sony LCD touch-screen REALLLLLY sucks. Also, the factory warranty on Sonys is an absolute JOKE!!!! The LCD 'broke/died' on my HC90 and I got it repaired by Mack. :-). The batteries on the Sony are also a nightmare. I bought two Sony batteries and one outright never worked and the other is very anemic.

Really liking the HV20 so far. The ONLY negative I can say about the HV20 so far is that it doesn't feel so good in the hand. There is a slight (OK, not so slight) awkward feel to the camera. I think the camcorderinfo review mentioned something similar. OK, the second beef is that Canon hasn't delivered any WD-H43's (wide adapter) to the states yet. :-(

Regards
JohnG

Now the wait. Camera arrives Wednesday. To fill up my time, I sprang for a Letus 35mm Adapter and a Nikon 50mm 1.4 today. Hoping that will improve output on the 35mm adapter process over my self built. I had already ordered adapters to step up to the 72 achromat.

So I should be able to run some decent 35mm adapter footage too... And compare that to what I get out of my FX1.

Has anybody figured out if you can flip the screen on the HV20 with the magnet trick ?

To fill up my time, I sprang for a Letus 35mm Adapter and a Nikon 50mm 1.4 today. Hoping that will improve output on the 35mm adapter process over my self built. I had already ordered adapters to step up to the 72 achromat.

Hi Chris

As I will go for the same "package" (a HV20 and a Letus35A), I'm very interested in seeing your results. I'd be very thankful for any footage you could provide.

From your question about the lcd flipping possibility of the HV20, I suppose you went for the Letus35 non flip version (the Letus35A), right? Are you planning to use it with the 72mm achromat from your FX1?

Hi Chris

Are you planning to use it with the 72mm achromat from your FX1?

Actually I think the Letus has its own 72mm achromat, but if I can interchange, I will also try that.

Yeah, that was my impression when I was looking at VX2000 v. GL1. Tape drives don't seem to be an issue in Sony's. Seems like Canon owners are always waiting for that shoe to drop... Thats why I am becoming initiated to Canon with an $1,100 camera, rather than the A-1 at $ 4K. We shall see, and I am going into this with an open mind.

Not so Chris. I've had more than my share of problems with small Sony tape drives.

Chris,

A hearty welcome to Canon - land.

May the images inspire you and bring a lot of happyness.

Can't wait to read your first feedback report.


Canon - evangelist - Herman.

That's weird...I'm a Canon user trying a Sony

Art, doesn't make you a bad person. :)

Just checked UPS. Arrival expected today. First thing I think I will do this afternoon is do some backyard comparison shots, in full auto mode for both the FX1 and HV20, and post some comparison grabs. I will follow up with some comparison footage in next day or two.

Letus35A has not arrived, yet, but I may try some adapter footage with my self built adapter. I did some tuning on it last night, so I might be okay, but I'm thinking my current adapter/lens combination is a bit defficient.

All my HDV experiences have been with the Sony Z1U and FX1's - great camera's. Solid, great control, love the wide-angle lens. However, not such a fan of the large grain (more camera than the HDV codec) and the excessive sharpening.

The HV20 is such a fragile feeling camera compared to those big, solid semi-pro cameras. But the image is "cleaner" :)

All my HDV experiences have been with the Sony Z1U and FX1's - great camera's. Solid, great control, love the wide-angle lens. However, not such a fan of the large grain (more camera than the HDV codec) and the excessive sharpening.

The HV20 is such a fragile feeling camera compared to those big, solid semi-pro cameras. But the image is "cleaner" :)

11:00 a.m. No UPS yet.

I've just realized that too about the FX1 I have, but also realize that I should be turning down sharpness to about 8 to get a cleaner lower grain image. I realize I haven't begun to explore all the available adjustments on the FX1. Why the heck to do I want another camera to learn..... :)

I realize I haven't begun to explore all the available adjustments on the FX1. Why the heck to do I want another camera to learn..... :)

'Cause you will have a 24P High Definition camera that fits in the palm of your hand and costs 1/3 the price of the FX1!

11:30: Its arrived.

Package opened. First surprise. Its clear Canon doesn't factory seal boxes. Sony's I bought always had a tape over the flap, if I recalled correctly, but of course that could have been store deal.

Second surprise, Canon box has virtually nothing on it.

I am attaching pictures of how packing looks, what was in box, and comparison shots with my other cameras, Panny GS120, Sony VX2000, and Sony FX1 so you can see size.

After hearing a lot about small size, actually thought it was going to be smaller that GS120, but that is not so. Feels solid enought so far.

Now I have to charge batteries..... bit more wait.

While plugged into charger, I attached my 1.7 Sony teleextender to HV20 with the 43-58 step up ring. Vignetting only at widest setting is visible on screen, with it disappearing off screen about 1/8 up the telephoto scale. Actually looks promising for nature shooting. I used same extender on FX1 with a lot more vignetting, and could only shoot it full telephoto. See photo

Here are comparison .bmps. They may show up distorted because of the pixels being interpreted in the bitmap as square by your viewer.

This is totally unscientific, but gives you a good idea what they look like compared.

HV20 is doing very well, in my opinion. It did blow out in highlights on oranges.

Both cameras were shot at full auto, except FX1 had ND2 on. I think the HV20 has some sort of ND automatically engaged, but I have not studied that yet. These are shots of backyard.

FX1 actually had Cinetone engaged on the bird shot..

for some reason photo won't load. I will check it out.

Sorry, can't seem to upload anything right now. Not sure why.... Will see about tomorrow.

Chris, FWIW, there seem to be some issues with uploading attachments; I've had inconsistent results myself.... What browser are you using? There seem to be several issues that have Apple's Safari browser in common.

Boyd:

I never had a problem before, and have uploaded .wmv and bitmaps, etc. I use plain old IE. I uploaded 10 jpegs earlier today, is it possilbe there is a limit?

1. If there is any one impression I come way with after the first day with the HV20, it is the amazement that everything they have has been fit in such a small package. Of course that been the direction of things in video, we can expect this to continue.

2. The small size creates issues for me, though. I have large hands, and I am a "bull in the china shop" type, so working on the smaller scale does have its disadvantages. Vs. the FX1, the screen provided for focusing is not enough, though even the FX1 creates issues for my "old eyes". To me, smaller isn't better at age 57.

3. Focus: Assuming you put this camera in manual focus mode, it is a challenge to use the focus wheel. I tried to see the effects of manipulating it in the LCD, but had a very difficult time of it. You need a fairly large object of focus to be able to see what you are doing. Ultimately, I'm thinking this camera will be in auto focus or instant auto focus, most of the time.

4. Teleextender: I did briefly use a teleextender, using a step up ring I bought from BH. I bought two step up rings, because I have a 72mm achromat, but in this case, the teleextender I was using on the FX1 was only a 58mm. The teleextender on the HV20 provides nearly full zoom capability, and I think will actually provide a better result on the HV20, than the FX1. More to test there in the future.

5. Exposure controls: At first, the exposure controls with joy stick were confusing, as to be expected. But I finally got it down pretty well, and assuming I want to have my shutter as priority, I have learned to set it at the speed I want it, and adjust from there with the "exposure" adjustment with the "joy stick". While the read out does not explain what is happening, I assume that by adjusting exposure in priority shutter priority mode you are adjusting aperature, maybe neutral density filtering, and gain. I am unclear as to this, but maybe someone knows. I did also discover how to engage zebras. I think that is a must, because it looks like to me that the HV20 will blow out pretty quickly. For those who haven't seen it, the camera maxes out at F8, and a low side F 1.8 at wide angle. I think the highest shutter speed I saw in the book was 1/2000, though that is through auto mode only. I don't currently recall if that is available on the manual shutter priority mode. I seem to remember it only goes to 1/500 there, but don't hold me to it.

6. 35mm Adapter: I continue to try adapting this camera to the 35mm adapter I self built. One point of using such a camera is to reduce size, and make it truly hand held. But the issue of critical focus is coming into play, in my early work. My first attempts convinced me that I needed an achromat. However, with some testing I did this morning before I came to work, I found some hope that I may be wrong about that, and some adjustment to the adapter may resolve that. I do think that what ever happens, I may have to rely on the instant auto focus to actually find the focus on the ground glass. Use of the focus wheel/ with the lcd is just not going to go very well for me.

7. Viewfinder: "Stinks" is the word that comes to mind. It is not intended to help focus, only frame your shot at best. And the slide to adjust the focus to your eyes is right next to the eyepiece, and you cannot adjust, while you are looking through it. So you adjust it look in the viewfinder, adjust it again, until, by trial and error, you have hit something close.

Hi Chris,

I currently own the sony vx2000 and vx2100. I'm currently looking for a good 3rd camera and was looking at the HC7 and HV2. I mostly shoot weddings and other events wanted a cam that would match up pretty close in post as well as support the HD format. Which of the two cams do you think would be the best choice based on your testing? Btw, the 3rd cam will mostly be used for balcony and center aisle shots.

Thanks,
Troy

Hi Troy:

Both the cameras will shoot DV, as I understand it, and even in a 4:3 format, like the VX/PD series. If you are shooting 16:9 with the PD/VX cams, I think you will see an improved picture in the either of these. The real issue, the way I see it, is the light in the facility. I think the HV20 will give a bit better low light performance, per reputation. I don't have the HC to compare to. I do know the HV20 does better in low light when set at 24p, and I confirmed that last night while working with my 35mm adapter.

The real danger of shooting with buying an HDV camera is that you will want to shoot it just to see how it works, and soon, you lose satisfaction with your SD look.... be warned there.... And I believe either of the cameras you mention are capable of bringing about that dissatisfaction.

Hi Troy -
Heed Chris's warning... you will buy one, and end up wanting more <wink>. HD is seductive.

Jury is still out on low light, CNet review just panned the HV20 for bad low light, recommended the HC7... while CCI said the opposite...

I'm testing the HC7 right now, and I'm impressed overall. I don't think the "field reviews" of the HV20 can be interpreted as anything much less than glowing, so I don't think you'll be "dissapointed" with either one, and you'll have a great small form factor camera when you don't want to lug the big guns.

As far as post, I think you'll find it challenging - I did ONE wedding with a mix of SD and HD cameras - if you're a CC wizard, or the angles are different enough, it probably won't be a big problem, but be aware the single CMOS cams look quite a bit different (better IMO) than the old standby 3CCD cams...

I'd toss a coin and get one, or if you have a couple extra coins, get both... I went with an HC7 initially as it was "upgrading" an HC3 and compatibility was an issue, but the HV20 looks like a great camera too. Tough choices!

DB>)

I think the HV20 tends to blow out a bit. This was on full auto with no input. The FX1 is also provided for comparison.

I had to convert and resize all the grabs from .bmps, but are eight more to look at. The FX1 bird picture was actually done with a Cinema effect on, so comparison there is not full auto to full auto.

Hi Chris -
Does the HV20 have an "AE" adjustment like the Sony cams? I know I tend to either set the auto exposure down 2-3 notches or adjust manually with the Sony cams. I figure Canon should also have a way to adjust?

DB>)

I think the HV20 tends to blow out a bit. This was on full auto with no input. The FX1 is also provided for comparison.

Both look great! I'm sure there's a way to ajust the iris on the HV20, right?

Also, is it true that XLR can be used with the HV20 and not the HC7?

Thanks,
Troy

Not in full auto mode. But if you switch to non-full auto, you can select Program AE, which does allow modification up and down. But you don't know what is being altered, gain, shutter speed, or aperature. It does definitely affect exposure...

Are you able to compare the HV20 with an a1 directly? for "outdoor" nature shots? which would be better? or how well does the hv20 compare?

Sorry, don't have A1, but my feeling is Canon A1 and Sony FX1 are very similar in chip configuration. I ve done a bit of outdoor with the FX1 at a nature preserve here locally, and I will take the HV20 out today or tomorrow, and be able to give you some idea there. I would certainly be shooting in a mode that I could control blow outs, most like "TV" which give priority to shutter speed. One thing I haven't run across is a ND filter change capability, and I assume that there is no access to that on board the camera. They do show screw ons in their accessories.

Both look great! I'm sure there's a way to ajust the iris on the HV20, right?

Also, is it true that XLR can be used with the HV20 and not the HC7?

Thanks,
Troy

Yes. You can shoot in a shutter priorty or aperature priority mode. In aperature priority mode, you can adjust from F1.8 (or 2.5 I think in full telephoto) to F8. That is extent of it. When you adjust those, the camera then adjust shutter speed automatically. Then, you go to the "joy stick" and adjust exposure further to try to match get your blow outs off screen, using the zebras. If in aperature priority, the adjustment is being made with the shutter, and gain, or any other non-aperature adjustment available.

You don't get to know what is happening in those adjustments, and at what speed the shutter is shooting.....

I think the HV20 tends to blow out a bit. This was on full auto with no input. The FX1 is also provided for comparison.


Interesting shots. From those shots the color and detail really look better on the HV20, but the FX1 does do a better job holding the highlights.

now are these digital stills from the camera or are these "Screen" caps of the "non compressed" film?

2. The small size creates issues for me, though. I have large hands, and I am a "bull in the china shop" type, so working on the smaller scale does have its disadvantages. Vs. the FX1, the screen provided for focusing is not enough, though even the FX1 creates issues for my "old eyes". To me, smaller isn't better at age 57.

Have you tried the focus assist? The review at camcorderinfo says it helps by enlarging the image (double) and peaking to help focus. The review liked it quite a bit.

3. Focus: Assuming you put this camera in manual focus mode, it is a challenge to use the focus wheel. I tried to see the effects of manipulating it in the LCD, but had a very difficult time of it. You need a fairly large object of focus to be able to see what you are doing. Ultimately, I'm thinking this camera will be in auto focus or instant auto focus, most of the time.

Your experience matches the CCI review; namely the focus wheel is a joke. All Canon had to do was out a focus ring on the lens barrel and they would have blown the HC7 out of the water. Again, the Focus Assist might help. If you've tried it let us know how well it works for you. There are plenty of us with "older" eyes who are wondering how difficult it will be to manual focus on the tiny 2.7" LCD.

5. Exposure controls: ... I assume that by adjusting exposure in priority shutter priority mode you are adjusting aperature, maybe neutral density filtering, and gain.

If I understand the CCI review correctly, there is no independent control over gain with the HV20.

7. Viewfinder: "Stinks" is the word that comes to mind. It is not intended to help focus, only frame your shot at best. And the slide to adjust the focus to your eyes is right next to the eyepiece, and you cannot adjust, while you are looking through it. So you adjust it look in the viewfinder, adjust it again, until, by trial and error, you have hit something close.
Again, the CCI review downgraded the HV20 for it's viewfinder. In particular, if you attach a larger battery you will have a very difficult time even looking through it. All they had to do was make it slide out. HV30 maybe?

Good luck.

Dennis

now are these digital stills from the camera or are these "Screen" caps of the "non compressed" film?

These are bitmap captures of the time line of .m2t files captured to Premiere Pro.

Dennis and all:

Well I just took the camera out into the field, and did some wildlife shooting, just to see how it went.

A couple of things impressed me.

1. IAF actually worked real well ! I followed a bird through weeds, shrubs and grass, and the focus was maintained pretty well. I think Canon has recognized that in most situation in which you have HD filming, focus is a big issue. This instant focus feature snaps in pretty well. I am surprised.

2. I shot with teleextender, and it did quite well too. Even with IAF

3. I shot everything through the viewfinder, either steady stick, or tripod. For the telephoto, steady stick was no good. But, I will back track a bit on viewfinder. I think it worked better than I anticipated. Still not really a focusable situation, but actually could monitor decently through it.

I will try to post some screen graps and maybe even a couple of seconds of footage...later this evening.

Chris,

looking forward to the footage. Thanks for your work and all this info. really good insites. Looks like May is the date for us here in aus. Can't wait!

This is short clip, highly compressed that demonstrates the instant auto focus. I had heard some bad comments about it, but it seems pretty nice the way it focus. I would like to post a couple actual .m2t files, but I don't think I can do it with the attachments provided below... I will have to see how much bandwidth I have on my site...

As close to original as possible. Note that the pond shots are a bit of a struggle, with the angle of the sun, and dark birds. I have done no color correction.

Also note that with the teleconvertor shots at the end, you may see some red fringing, which I assume is chromatic aberration. It really pronounced on other shots I took with teleconvertor today.

Download clip by right clicking and saving target, please. I don't know how much bandwith I will have

http://www.makeyourfilm.net/downloads/HV20clips.m2v CLOSED AT MOMENT DUE TO BANWIDTH Megaupload url provided below.