Any HV20 owners(or potential owners) looked at the sample videos of JVC's GZ-HD7?

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070328/zooma300.htm

I must say they look pretty good. Enough to make me return my HV20 and get the HD7? Not sure yet... no $1000~$2000 is perfect.... probably have hold one in my own hands first... When I was comparing the Sony HC7 and my current HV20, both in my hands, it took less than a few minutes before I decided the HV20 was for me.

Any opinions?

Well, I have a question, does the GZ-HD7 do 24p? If the answer is no, I'm sticking with the HV20 ;-) BTW I'd like to see that GZ-HD7 footage but I keep getting a Japanese language website from your link. Any other way to access the footage? Thank you.

Well, I have a question, does the GZ-HD7 do 24p? If the answer is no, I'm sticking with the HV20 ;-) BTW I'd like to see that GZ-HD7 footage but I keep getting a Japanese language website from your link. Any other way to access the footage? Thank you.

okay... you got me... the HD7 does NOT do 24p.... <grin>
but according to my Japanese friend, the HD7 does 3P. <wink>
like I said, no camcorder is "perfect" in this category... :)

..it is a great little camera for narrative shorts and a very good all around consumer camera. I believe it could be used for ultra low budget features and sure it will be at some point.
Regards, Alan

Well, I have a question, does the GZ-HD7 do 24p? If the answer is no, I'm sticking with the HV20 ;-) BTW I'd like to see that GZ-HD7 footage but I keep getting a Japanese language website from your link. Any other way to access the footage? Thank you.
Here is a translated version.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs%2F20070328%2Fzooma300.htm

If it doesn't do 24p, it falls in the "OTHER" category. :-)

Really, the HV20 is an ideal camera for my needs. It will probably be a while before something comes along that tops it.

I find it very strange that any serious HV20 owner would already start looking at other cameras to buy. The camera is not even a week old!

There is always going to be better, faster, sleeker cameras out there.

And this camera, the JVC, is 800 dollars more. If someone wants to subsidize me that amount, I will "consider" the JVC.

At this price point--there IS NOTHING else on the market that compares to the HV20.

We can discuss nuts and bolts and tech specs till eternity, but I rather just starting using my camcorder, rather then obsessing at what other's cameras will come out 6 months, a year, 5 years from now.

I for one wouldn't consider the JVC for the following reasons:

* Every HD camcorder that's come out thus far has not had as good a picture as tape-based camcorders. Whether it's due to the compression used or something else, they always seem to fall short of tape-based units.

* It's an utter pain to use a HD (hard drive) camcorder to play your older material. First you need to dump the contents of the HD to your computer. Then you may choose to edit it. Once you edit it, how do you play it back on your HDTV? Yes, you've got to reload it back to the camcorder and then hook the cam to your HDTV for playback. Compare that to simply slipping in a tape shot 2 years ago into your cam and playing it back. So anytime you want to watch something recorded some time ago, you need to dump the current contents of the cam's HD to your computer to free up the space to reload your old footage.

* Tape is still the most reliable means of storage. What if the HD crashes in the cam? What if the HD your archiving on crashes? The footage is lost.

* Oh yes, storage capacity. Going on vacation? Are you going to carry along an extra HD? Compare that with sticking however many 1 hour tapes you'll think you'll need for the duration of your trip. Did you miscalculate how many tapes you needed while on vacation? Hey, no biggie, mini-DV tapes are sold everywhere.....not so camcorder hard drives.

I'll stick to tape thanks and I'll stay with my Canon HV20....that's until the HV30 comes out. ;)

I think that some folks are video junkies ( me too ) and are just wondering if
there's any merrit to other Cams besides the HV20...

The HV20 does seem to be a nice cam for the price and it seems to be doing
a good job... but some of us that have been doing this for some time know
that the single chip cams never could hold a candle to the tripple chippers in the
SD days... so it seems we just look at single chippers with a little doubt unitl
proven otherwise....

The JVC does look like a very nice cam, tripple chipper (small chips) but HD vs
tape, I like tape but its going to happen sooner or later that tapes are going away just like hard drives are going away to FLASH.

And now that claims to the HV20 on top of the hill ( for now ) we just want to know whats going to topple it... it wont be long....

you have to admit that the JVC does look very cool....... :-)

Hi Ken, Just to mention about playing back HD material on your TV.....

Most of us don't have bluray or HDDVD writers and so your mostly correct that one way to play back HD footage is to dump to computer, edit, then dump back to cam and cam to TV....

But an esier way is to just get one of the PS3 game consoles... it supports HDV now with the software upgrade that Sony did last week. And its pretty cool actually... because now all you have to do is dump from the cam to the computer, edit the footage, (I like to use Cineform to meld from HD to AVI, then edit, then back out of the editor to HD) back out to a DVD, mem card or CD as a data file (m2T file works fine) and the PS3 will play it back at native resolution.

The results look fantastic on the 1080p DLP TV's or the projectors... and no
you don't have to have a bluray or HDDVD writer for this to work...

The advantage of course to the bluray or HDDVD is just the shear volume that these two formats can store...

* Every HD camcorder that's come out thus far has not had as good a picture as tape-based camcorders. Whether it's due to the compression used or something else, they always seem to fall short of tape-based units.


Did you see these examples yet?
http://www.fxsupport.de/17.html
The picture quality of the Pal DX1 is almost as good as the Pal HC3 but that’s comparing 13mbps of h.264 to 25mbps of MPEG2 and companies have only started using AVCHD so the picture quality will only get better and wait until you see the picture quality of the Panasonic AG-HSC1U.

Anyway, the recording medium has nothing to do with picture quality, it’s the compression. HDV uses 25mbps while the HD7 uses 27mbps in 1440. The 1920 mode is a variable bit rate of 26.6.

The 174MB file proves that the picture quality of the HD7 is not bad at all, although the scene of the lady going from feet to head worries me a little bit and I hope its because of the NLE.

Ray, it's still more awkward than tape and you still haven't addressed the capacity issue of the cam which is rather limited. This could present a real problem when on vacation. The other unknown is whether the high data rate of the JVC will be compatible with a unit such as the PS3. Remember you spoke of the PS3's comaptibility with HDV, the JVC is not that format. Yes, its mpeg2, but it's a high data rate version of that.

I well remember having JVC's 720p camcorder and that thing wasn't even compatible with JVC's own D-Theater/D-VHS decks! A slight difference in data rates made them totally incompatible. Beginning to see why I'll stick with tape for awhile? :)

Did you see these examples yet?
http://www.fxsupport.de/17.html
The picture quality of the Pal DX1 is almost as good as the Pal HC3 but that’s comparing 13mbps of h.264 to 25 MPEG2 and companies have only started using AVCHD so the picture quality will only get better and wait until you see the picture quality of the Panasonic AG-HSC1U.

Anyway, the recording medium has nothing to do with picture quality, it’s the compression. HDV uses 25mbps while the HD7 uses 27mbps in 1440. The 1920 mode is a variable bit rate of 26.6.

The 174MB file proves that the picture quality of the HD7 is not bad at all, although the scene of the lady going from feet to head worries me a little bit and I hope its because of the NLE.

Paulo, I did mention compression as the probably culprit in the picture quality issue of HD based camcorders. I never said the HD7 is bad, I just don't know yet. But even if it's every bit as good as the HV20 (which I seriously doubt), I still wouldn't be interested for the reasons I mentioned above. I firmly believe that tape-based camcorders are more practical, make archiving far easier and are simply more user friendly. By the way, I've never seen a JVC consumer camcorder that was good as the competition put out by Sony or Canon.

So the only way I'd personally consider a hard drive based camcorder, is if one came out that had obviously superior picture quality...not marginally better, obviously better. I don't see that happening for quite awhile and in that same period of time, tape-based camcorders will continue to improve. By then we'll probably have a 3-chip small CMOS camcorder. A small 3-chip CMOS Canon HV30 would probably be incredible based on how good the HV10/HV20 are.

Paulo, I did mention compression as the probably culprit in the picture quality issue of HD based camcorders. I never said the HD7 is bad, I just don't know yet. But even if it's every bit as good as the HV20 (which I seriously doubt), I still wouldn't be interested for the reasons I mentioned above. I firmly believe that tape-based camcorders are more practical, make archiving far easier and are simply more user friendly. By the way, I've never seen a JVC consumer camcorder that was good as the competition put out by Sony or Canon.

So the only way I'd personally consider a hard drive based camcorder, is if one came out that had obviously superior picture quality...not marginally better, obviously better. I don't see that happening for quite awhile and in that same period of time, tape-based camcorders will continue to improve. By then we'll probably have a 3-chip small CMOS camcorder. A small 3-chip CMOS Canon HV30 would probably be incredible based on how good the HV10/HV20 are.
Sorry, I should have said it like this.
“Anyway, the recording medium has nothing to do with picture quality, it is the compresssion”

Canon is going to release an AVCHD camcorder this year so lest see how that turns out.


Even JVC said that Blu-Ray players will be fully compatible with the HD7 and the PS3 is definitely a full fledged Blu-Ray player.

But an esier way is to just get one of the PS3 game consoles... it supports HDV now with the software upgrade that Sony did last week. And its pretty cool actually... because now all you have to do is dump from the cam to the computer, edit the footage, (I like to use Cineform to meld from HD to AVI, then edit, then back out of the editor to HD) back out to a DVD, mem card or CD as a data file (m2T file works fine) and the PS3 will play it back at native resolution.


Ray,

Thanks for that info.... I had a PS3 for a while... when the grandkids interest in it, I returned it. (lack of games they were interested in)

How many minutes can a regular DVD(single or dual-layer) hold, for playing back HDV on a PS3?

thanks again!

I've compared the samples of the JVC and the Canon (both the same sample of the candles and swinging silver balls from the Jap review) and to be very honest, I find there to be more noise on the JVC side of things.... not as crisp as the canon sample either.

Something else weird... I use Power DVD for all of my MPG viewing... it does a better job then my Nero player. But powerDVD would not play the MPG samples I downloaded. This is the first time I have ever seen PowerDVD fail to play a mpeg. I had no choice but to use Nero. JVC did mention a slightly different mpg structure being used on this cam....something to be aware of anyway.

This I think is a bit of weight off my shoulders... for a while there... I was wondering if I made the right decision in purchasing the Canon and not waiting for JVC samples!

George, that's the kind of thing I was talking about...compatibility. Some people think all mpeg2 streams are alike...they're not and they'll be in for a surprise if they think so.

I also downloaded the 174mg clip and I thought it was OK, nothing special. I saw some noise and artifacting, but when viewing clips like this (unless you have a native m2t stream) you can never be sure what the camera was responsible for and what the methodology of getting it to the internet was responsible for. Either way I'd bet the bank it won't be as good as the best HDV camcorders for pure picture quality. No reason to trade for greater inconvenience. ;)

Something else weird... I use Power DVD for all of my MPG viewing... it does a better job then my Nero player. But powerDVD would not play the MPG samples I downloaded. This is the first time I have ever seen PowerDVD fail to play a mpeg. I had no choice but to use Nero. JVC did mention a slightly different mpg structure being used on this cam....something to be aware of anyway.

Do you have the latest version of PowerDVD? Because that’s the player I used to determine the bit rate and it works perfectly fine. You can also try the latest version of DIVX.

I saw some noise and artifacting, but when viewing clips like this (unless you have a native m2t stream) you can never be sure what the camera was responsible for and what the methodology of getting it to the internet was responsible for.
I agree


Like I also mentioned in the HD7 thread, I’m almost certain it was the NLE. This is what is says under the 174MB file.
“Animated picture sample. With smart rendering mode of attachment software "PowerDirector 5 NE Express" you could see the fluctuation of chroma level while cutting and fold, re-rendering you did”
The bit rate dips to below 8mbps in the duck scene so that should prove that it’s the NLE. Even the 34.5MB file of the model doesn’t have the pixilation effect that the model had in the 174MB file.

I hope it really is the NLE because this can be a problem.

Do you have the latest version of PowerDVD? Because that’s the player I used to determine the bit rate and it works perfectly fine. You can also try the latest version of DIVX.

Yeah... I updated Powerdvd and that solved the problem.

Is it possible, with a camera like this, to drag and drop the files from the cameras hard drive to your computer?

Is it possible, with a camera like this, to drag and drop the files from the cameras hard drive to your computer?
Yes, that’s one of the selling points of this camcorder.

Yes, that’s one of the selling points of this camcorder.

Thanks.

I am very curious to see some real footage shot by the members of this forum after the camera is released.

It is tough to judge this camera by the samples posted so far.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=83341&page=12&highlight=hd7

my 2cts...

with only a slight amout of exaggeration, I can say that my profession, web design, has (amongst other things) taught me the Love for the Pixel. In this area that is dominated by the quest for crisp screen display, there is this golden rule: never upscale a picture (unless you absolutely have to).

For me, this is the beauty of the HV10/20. The vertical resolution is 1:1 what gets to be recorded on tape. As I get it, the mentioned HD7 upscales from 1016 x 558 up to 1920x1080. Even though pixelshifting partly compensates for this, it will result in blurryness. It's still a huge amount of "making stuff up" and "putting stuff together" in the cam.
Next, while the 3CCD setup will indeed get you higher color resolution, but color compression takes that advantage away by a significant amount.

(finally here's a reminder not to get me started on the horrible 6.1MP still resolution indication that Sony "boasts" on their 3MP HC7.)

Am I being too dogmatic on this? If so, plz someone help me out, thanks :)
Pieter