i'm not sure if it's just my unit, or just the form factor i'm not used to, but i have an extremely hard time keeping this cam useably still. shouldn't one be able to walk holding the cam and shoot with out the image bouncing all over? even walking cradling the cam with both hands i can't get a useable image.

some samples of things that bother me. notice the warping of some frames, and what appears to be the OIS jumping around. all of these shots were shot hand held, although most were shot with the cam cradled in my hand, set on top of my leg as i was sitting down.

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20issues%20720p.mov

am i too sensitive or does it seem like the OIS isn't helping/maybe even hurting?

i have an xl1s and a canon tele eos lens with ois, and i have no problems with those.

anybody else got any footage where they're moving with this cam?

thanks

The jumpiness of the image reminds me of those cheap MPEG4 digicamcorders. I also get those if I reused the same MiniDV tape more than once in my Canon Elura / ZR200. Just a guess. Maybe issue writing to tape?

shouldn't one be able to walk holding the cam and shoot with out the image bouncing all over?No, I don't think you should expect to be able to do that. Maybe if you're zoomed out to full wide angle though, and really careful with the movement.

OIS is not a substitute for a tripod. At longer focal lengths toward the telephoto end of the zoom, it's really crucial to do your best to hold the camera as steady as possible. OIS will *help* you with that, but you've got to make most of the effort in keeping it steady yourself.

I'll never forget a trade show experience a couple of years ago back in New York when the XL2 was first introduced... I watched a guy pick up the camera, aim it up at the lights, and wave it around wildly in big figure-eight patterns while looking through the viewfinder.

"Hmm," he said, "image stabilization doesn't seem to be working."

i am doing my best to hold it steady, but you'd think at full wide one should be able to hold the camera (the way it's meant to be held) and have it render useable video.

i'd really like to see some other handheld stuff to see if they are having similar issues before i exchange it for another one. i've got the RMA already and will probably be putting it in the mail tomorrow.

i fully understand that it's a tiny consumer cam, and is just more difficult to steady up. i have no experience with these so i'm just trying to get a gauge on what is considered normal operation for this OIS. worse come to worst i'll just strap a 5lb weight to it.

Austin, there's no camera that will do what you want with the method you're using. That's why people use Steadicams. No point in spending big bucks for a device like that if the camera by itself could do it.....none can. ;)

OIS is designed for small hand motions, not large ones as the result of a typical stride.

What OIS is really designed for, is to dampen a particular range of motion. Many folks do not understand what that particular range of motion is. It's not just "any" motion, like my example of the trade show guy that I noted above, who waved an XL2 around and wondered why the image moved (which is a completely true story by the way).

OIS is effective only when you're doing your best to hold the camera perfectly still, preferably using both hands. What OIS does is to dampen the range of subtle vibration going into the camera body that's transmitted by your hands and fingers, which is caused by blood coursing through your veins, or similar frequencies such as a slight nervous twitch. Ever try to hold your hands and fingers perfectly still? Notice how it's practically impossible, just by virtue of being alive? That's what OIS is intended to do, to dampen out those particular frequencies of motion... and certainly *not* the motion of actually walking around (that's what SteadiCams and similar stabilizers are for).

ok so i'm just overly sensitive then... i'm used to dealing with considerably heavier rigs. time to start building some stabilizers... lowe's here i come.

does anyone have the pod? or used one?

http://www.thepod.ca

Hmm...
Try this clip from my HC7 for comparison. It's handheld while walking, OIS on:

http://media.dvinfo.net/sony/hdrhc7indoor.m2x

Dan, in all due respect, you were walking much slower in a much smaller area, so I don't think the comparison is fair. Two people walking the same path can get very different results hand holding the same camera. Some people are much steadier than others.

In all honestly I don't think there's much difference between the OIS on the Sony and the Canon.

In fact it's quite possible that the OIS systems in both of these Canon and Sony camcorders are identical, since OIS is a core Canon technology which is commonly licensed to other manufacturers. Sony is one of Canon's biggest customers (and vice versa, as all of the major Japanese corporations typically buy, sell, and trade technologies and components with each other on a constantly ongoing basis).

I shot some footage with the HV20 and an Elura side by side and I came to the conclusion that because the HV20 was so much sharper, you "noticed" jitteryness more. When the picture was grainer with the elura, the jitteryness level was the same but less noticeable. Sort of like noticing a door handle looks old and worn after you repaint a door. Same door handle, bright new vision that brings it into clarity.

So, just to be clear, all of you saying this is in the realm of normal have looked at the footage Austin included in the original post? The weird distortion, and picture jumping abruptly from one frame to the next seem a little strange, especially if he was shooting "with the cam cradled in my hand, set on top of my leg as i was sitting down."

I know that's not a tripod, but he's right, it should produce "usable" footage, which this is not. Unless he's got a twitch he doesn't know about. ;)

As for the *walking* shots, I agree with what others have said.

This stabalization does look particularly bad. That being said, HDV is just a whole different ball game. It is amazing for the professional, but will make amateur video look more amateur.

It appears you can't walk around with HDV cams like you can with SD ones... I am comparing footage from my FX1 to my TRV900 (sony's) and the TRV 900 (circa 2000) camera footage looks much more stable when I walk around with the camera.. HDV is so sharp it shows a lot more detail, including all the mistakes.... It does appear HDV doesn't have the same kind of versatility for walk arounds as SD. It would be interesting to see a walk around using a HV20 and a stabalizer like merlin or steadicam...

That being said, consumers are probably best suited with an SD handheld imo... very few consumers are going to be setting up shots and most will be doing a lot of walking around hand held... and those images don't cut it...

still tweaking but check this out.

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/stabilizer1.JPG
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/stabilizer2.JPG
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/stabilizer3.JPG

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20steady.mov

when/if the sun will come out and the rain will stop i'll go outside and try some more stuff. i've got too much crap in this one room apt.

Even the EIS on my old Sony handycam looks waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than that (clips in the first post). What you get reminds me more of an old cheap Trust digital camera that my neighbour used to have. The distortion shouldn't be there at all and it shouldn't be that jumpy.
If that is the case with all HV20s I will not buy one. I haven't seen that bad results from any other EIS or OIS.

So, just to be clear, all of you saying this is in the realm of normal have looked at the footage Austin included in the original post? Absolutely not. I've never seen OIS behave that way and it certainly doesn't on my HV10 or HV20 or any other OIS camera I've ever had. I'm not sure what the issue is there.

I also got the feeling that all of you that has posted here saying it's normal didn't really watch the footage. It doesn't look right at all.

Ken Ross: Good to know that not all HV20s behave like this.

Ken, just want to clarify that you are able to go from standing to sitting and perhaps walk with the image holding reasonably within around the subject? You are doing this full wide right? Please tell me its true.

I'm one of those watching and waiting for feedback on the HV20 before comitting. 8-) I use a camcorder for vacation and sports in a run-and-gun style (real amateur style). My personal expectation is a camcorder wouldn't be too jittery at full wide while following after a walking person or holding the camera with one hand while braced would be fairly still. At any zoom setting I wouldn't expect the OIS to work well.

Chris raised an interesting point on reasonable expectations for the OIS. I bought the original Elura (also with OIS) years ago knowing its limitations. I shoot with the camcorder close to face or very close to the body to try to keep it stable. When I run around I use my tripod like an adhoc steadicam. If I understand it correctly, the small size and light weight of the HV20 contributes to shaky movements which reflect easier on the image because of its increased resolution. So it becomes a question of ballast. I'm curious to hear what people are able to do reasonably with the OIS sans tripod/steadicam.

OK, in my other thread about Cine Mode, I mentioned that I experienced a similar "ripple" in the recording - though no where near as severe. I will post a sample when I can.

However, I wonder if it is a matter of the heads being cleaned?

The manual says this on page 94:

--

- During playback you notice frequent video problems (blocky video artifacts, banding, etc.)
- When playing back a tape recorded in HDV standard the playback is jerky or the sound stutters on and off

--

and, on page 26:

--

Before you begin recording
Make a test recording first to check if the camcorder operates correctly. If necessary, clean the video heads

--

Kevin

Mike, I'm not saying that you would be able to walk around, run around or go from a sit to a stand position and have the image stay absolutely stable. That's not how OIS is designed. What I was commenting about was the video that showed an odd 'bending' which I haven't seen before. But if I were to walk or run holding the camera tight to my body, I would fully expect a shaky image.

As Chris and I have pointed out, it's designed to stabilize small hand movements which are expected when hand holding a camera. The efficacy of OIS can be seen by simply using the telephoto at some arbitrary length and watching the image with and without OIS. Without OIS the image is almost unwatchable with small hand movements being magnified. With OIS engaged, the image can be very steady depending upon how steadily you hold the camera to begin with.

so i didn't return the camera after hearing what yall had to say. also i just discovered that shooting in 60i produces much steadier footage than shooting 24p. i'm new to 24p and that never crossed my mind that that could be an issue. just to reiterate when it's in 60i it performs as i orginally expected it to, ie. you can walk around and use it handheld and the footage is more than useable.

is having more shake common in other cams that shoot 24p? i know because there are 25% more frames that it tends to smooth things out in 60i but i never imagined the difference would be so pronounced.

if anyone is interested i can post up some moving footage of the 24 vs 60.

i'll also have some other 60i footage i'll be throwing up pretty soon...

The 24p that people are going crazy over, first of all is not the same kind of 24p that you will see on film. Secondly, there is an art to shooting in 24p. You can't really shoot it reliably without a tripod. The slower frame rate is very good at picking out and even amplifying camera shake. There is more time BETWEEN frames because of the lower frame rate so fast movements come across as being "jerky". It's much the same as slowing down a strobe light on the dance floor... more off time allows there to be larger movement of the arm (for example) in the darkness. Camera shake due to walking can be classified as FAST movement. You're talking maybe a few milliseconds worth of movement (from the onset of a cam shake episode to its end) that reverberates through the cam with a simple step. So the result is that you will most likely capture the start of the camera shake episode and maybe the ending of that episode... but everything in between is missing... hence... the extreme jerky look. Now multiply that by the number of steps you take in a minute... throw the progressive behavior (as opposed to interlaced) into the mix.... and you have a real mess on your hands.

And THAT'S the other biggy... the progressive scan vs interlaced, which even gets more complicated... but the bottom line is that it will all translate into slower, more even movements required.

I've said this before on another sight... this 24p seems to be a big selling point for this cam and most people are going to be disappointed with it when they get it home and try it. 60i is very forgiving stuff when it comes to cam shake, fast pans, and other jerky movements... but 24p is not. Most people are going to try this once or twice, then forget about it.

So, in 60i you SHOULD be able to walk softly and have the video come out like any other cam in its class... but with the 24p, put the cam on a fluid tripod and try some slow even pans, and see what you get, before you make any big judgment calls

And in actuality, the HV20 can sell itself without the 24p mode. The video at 60i is simply that good.

Don't mean to be too contrarian George, but thousands of us have been shooting with DVX100's/XL 2's in 24P for years, handheld, run 'n gun, without tripods, etc. with excellent results. The strobing problem you mention is most evident I think, ironically when panning too fast on a tripod. On the other hand, I've done all kinds of fast moves on my DVX100 without any real issues (also shooting in 24pA [advanced mode] exacerbates a strobing effect regardless of whether the camera is moving or not). You're right - 24p video isn't the same as 24 fps using film. But I don't think the OP's problems have anything to do with shooting 24p or not.

That image distortion seems to be produced by the combination of high shutter speeds and very fast camera moves. In the same way, some photo cameras do tricks in order to achive high shutter speeds that cause temporal image distortion. For example: If you take a picture of trees when travel in a car, they may appear oblique instead of vertical. All because of a particular high shutter speed design.

I read this camera uses a 360º shutter. THAT, and the combination of high speed shutter preset and fast camera moves results in a unnavoidable image distortion.

Even so, that is far of being a real problem. Just waiting for the PAL release.

I shot some footage with the HV20 and an Elura side by side and I came to the conclusion that because the HV20 was so much sharper, you "noticed" jitteryness more.

I think this is the biggest factor at work here. Camera movement and focus problems are both so much more obvious with HDV. Many folks think shooting HDV is just like shooting DV but there are some subtle differences due to the huge increase in resolution. You have to learn to work with HDV.

Good luck.

Dennis

The distortion Galen is talking about is that with a digicam, when you hit a shutter speed faster than the sync speed (1/60s - 1/250s typical dependent on camera), then the whole sensor is not exposed at once. Instead a top shutter and a bottom shutter (called curtains) are move over the sensor with a little opening between.

If we assume a sync speed of 1/100s, then a shutter speed of 1/1000s means that only 1/10th of the shutter is exposed to light at any given time. It also means, that there is a time delay of 1/100s between the exposure at top and at bottom.

This can give warped pictures.

It also means, you can not use a flash unless it is in FP mode, otherwise only part of the image will see the flash. So the flash is set to pulse for the 1/100s.