Here's Larry's NY street clip as a raw m2t: http://disk.dvinfo.net/public/media/canonhv20/hv20-raw.m2t Right click/save (remember, the interlace lines are pulldown for 60i compatibility

Here's the same clip as a high bit rate h.264 (25 mbit) with pulldown removed. Pure 1080 24p! :http://disk.dvinfo.net/public/media/canonhv20/hv20-H264-24p.mov

Thanks Larry!

Looks great! How did you remove the pulldown?

What did you use?

Mike

I converted the clip in MPEG Streamclip to uncompressed, then imported to Cinema Tools and performed an inverse telecine. Then encoded again for the web. You actually have to be careful about the conversion to full 1920x1080. Scaling and chroma interlacing have to be just right, otherwise you get some artifacts when extracting to 24 fps.

i've been playing with this same clip, using mpeg streamclip, i exported to apple intermediate codec, and then used cinema tools to do the rev telecine. did you just test the different settings to remove the pulldown (as i did) i eventually found the one that worked. or is there a method to the madness that i don't know. and what do you mean by artifacts? when i did the process above the AIC encoded file has a flicker on the reds and greens only (the store canopies) is that what you're talking about? ...interestingly enough as i'm writing this i set one to export out to h264 and the flickering that affected the AIC version doesn't affect the h264. i'm uploading it to my server as we speak and will post it

here's a slice of the AIC encoded movie

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20%2024p-wflicker.mov

notice the flicker in the red and green banners

I've been been trying hard to find some rolling shutter artifacts in this clip, especially in the fast pan shots. There just don't seem to be any which is good.

did you just test the different settings to remove the pulldown (as i did) i eventually found the one that worked.or is there a method to the madness that i don't know.

A little bit of method amidst the madness ;) I've found that if I export a clip into the intermediate codec with a standard pulldown cadence (3 progressve/2interlace etc.) and keep it consistent from start to finish,(always make the clips out point the second pulldown frame) I get a good extraction.

and what do you mean by artifacts? when i did the process above the AIC encoded file has a flicker on the reds and greens only (the store canopies) is that what you're talking about? ...interestingly enough as i'm writing this i set one to export out to h264 and the flickering that affected the AIC version doesn't affect the h264. i'm uploading it to my server as we speak and will post it

Yes, I got the same flickering colors. I solved it by exporting as a 1920 x 1080 image with the "Interlaced Scaling" and "Reinterlace Chroma" enabled. Also, make sure the clip is rendered upper field first.

Then I use these settings in Cinema Tools: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=2409&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1174336954

Can somebody please explain briefly what horsepower/system or other codecs needed to play these 1920 x 1280 h.264 .mov clips?
My system freezes when trying to play them via Quicktime. (P4 3.0 GHz, 2 GB RAM, XP Pro).

i used the same cinema tools setup as your except the drop down was set to "style 2."

do you know if all 24p in 60i clips will process using this same setting or will each individual clip captured have to be tweaked because of start/stop?

Thanks Larry!

Thank you, Barlow. I shot it, but you did pretty much all the rest.

Can somebody please explain briefly what horsepower/system or other codecs needed to play these 1920 x 1280 h.264 .mov clips?
My system freezes when trying to play them via Quicktime. (P4 3.0 GHz, 2 GB RAM, XP Pro).

Sorry if it's choking your system. I've heard that h.264's on Windows require even more computing power. I don't know if it requires dual core/hyperthreading etc. Maybe some PC users with beefy systems could chime in if they're having similar issues.

What is MPEG Streamclip? I am most certainly a rookie and have only used Vegas, .AVI clips. I have never used any other codec. Do all NLE's have an "mpeg streamclip" like converter?

Thomas

What is MPEG Streamclip? I am most certainly a rookie and have only used Vegas, .AVI clips. I have never used any other codec. Do all NLE's have an "mpeg streamclip" like converter?

Thomas

mpeg streamclip is just a converter, that has a broader scope that quicktime, at least without hunting down some many different codecs. it's completely separate from any NLE.

i can only speak for FCP, but it has a side app called compressor which does alot of conversion/export stuff. it's only limited to what your qt player can export/process.

i use mpeg streamclip a lot when dealing with raw forms of mpeg stuff (.vob's m2t's etc...), converting them to dv for editing purposes and it really does the trick, and quickly, and i've never had any crashing issues either.

here's the link:

http://www.squared5.com/

Sorry if it's choking your system. I've heard that h.264's on Windows require even more computing power. I don't know if it requires dual core/hyperthreading etc. Maybe some PC users with beefy systems could chime in if they're having similar issues.

FYI, I got jerky playback on the H.264 file also. I've had some similar problems when encoding H.264 using MPEG Streamclip.

-gb-

Forgive my lack of knowledge on this, but why was pulldown added going out to an .m2t file? I shot Canon XLH1 footage in 24f and went out to .m2t through firewire, and no pulldown was added. Did you go out via HDMI? I'm curious as to the reason for this.

Forgive my lack of knowledge on this, but why was pulldown added going out to an .m2t file? I shot Canon XLH1 footage in 24f and went out to .m2t through firewire, and no pulldown was added. Did you go out via HDMI? I'm curious as to the reason for this.

It's a consumer camera and pulldown is added (most likely) for 1080i standards compatibility. It makes it so the camera can simply plug into most HDTV's and display correctly.

FYI, I got jerky playback on the H.264 file also. I've had some similar problems when encoding H.264 using MPEG Streamclip.

-gb-

I suspect it might be due to B frames added to the encoding process.(an option in the latest MPEG Streamclip) I can make a version without them and it might play back more smoothly. The only reason I made a high bit rate h.264 was to try and keep the conversion as close in quality to the original m2t as possible.

Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to do HD WMV's on my G5.

FYI,
The clip plays better using Nero Showtime (I just bought Ultra 7 Enhanced), although still somewhat jerky.

This 24p raw file plays flawlessly in Media Player Classic using DScaler 5 IVTC mod (72hz display at 24fps is best)

I suspect it might be due to B frames added to the encoding process.(an option in the latest MPEG Streamclip) I can make a version without them and it might play back more smoothly. The only reason I made a high bit rate h.264 was to try and keep the conversion as close in quality to the original m2t as possible.

Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to do HD WMV's on my G5.

Barlow, Do a google search for flip4mac and see if that helps.
(Windows Media® Components for QuickTime player should be free)

So if it is a normal pull down, we should be able to use vegas or cinaform, correct?


-Kris

So if it is a normal pull down, we should be able to use vegas or cinaform, correct?


-Kris

correct, fcp's cinema tools work fine with the footage i've played with thus far. you have to set the removal pattern manually, but once you figure it out it's smooth sailing.

Barlow, Do a google search for flip4mac and see if that helps.
(Windows Media® Components for QuickTime player should be free)

I've already downloaded and used the demo. It watermarks everything now.

There's a free version of Flip4Mac that adds a wmv plugin for playback. Doesn't encode but you can play.

Here are some (hopefully) pc friendly clips: divx and wmv

http://media.dvinfo.net/canonhv20/hv20108024p.divx (28 MB)
http://media.dvinfo.net/canonhv20/hv20108024p.wmv (25 MB)

Something's wonky with the wmv. I installed the flip4mac demo again and it will encode, but the clip gradually gets a greenish tint. I have no idea why but it should play ok for most.

Ah. . . the joys of living in a pulldown free PAL world ! :)

Lee do you know how the 25p raw files will play? In VLC will they show interlacing artifacts as they are in a 1080i stream? What will be the effect of the various deinterlacing options such as blend fields in VLC for playback?

How will Vegas be able to handle the files?

Cheers

Ok wow, I REALLY like the direction of this.

http://stevenbothe.com/up/hv20-raw-24df-AppleTV.mov

720p single pass, apple tv compatible, basic warm processing, sheer for intermediate codec and pull down removal via cinema tools of course

no strobe, just smooth 24p

AMAZING I THINK!

I'm going V1U, but gosh, this is AWSOME for b-roll guys!

I thought there were interlace artifacts in the window awnings, but it was just shadows from fire escapes, hahaha. First try I was really disappointed, played around a bit with my settings, and OMGOSH, I LOVE THIS NOW!

I can't wait to see what comes out next from Sony and Canon!!

Ah. . . the joys of living in a pulldown free PAL world ! :)

Indeed. I'd almost buy a PAL version of the camera simply to be free from this annoyance.

Lee do you know how the 25p raw files will play? In VLC will they show interlacing artifacts as they are in a 1080i stream? What will be the effect of the various deinterlacing options such as blend fields in VLC for playback?

How will Vegas be able to handle the files?

Cheers

I'm sure the actual 25p PAL version of HV20 footage won't have interlace artifacts at all. It's carried in the 1080i stream, but it's pure progressive.

I'm sure the actual 25p PAL version of HV20 footage won't have interlace artifacts at all. It's carried in the 1080i stream, but it's pure progressive.

Yes I agree.

I've noticed some bubbly macroblocking in the womens black coat. Is this apparent in the original footage, or is it just from all the hoops it jumped through to get compressed for the web? Other than that, it looks great.

And did anybody see the incredible HV20 + Brevis shot in the other thread? AMAZING. Would love to see the original footage on my 40 inch samsung lcd via HDMI.

The footage looks absolutely amazing! So when you edit 24p from the HV20, can you just edit in your NLE's 1080p24 preset and have it look this good? Or do you really have to convert and remove the pulldown and all that? I'm confused here.

You have to convert and remove pulldown. Some NLE's remove pulldown on-the-fly, as do a lot of DVD players and HDTV's, so it might not be such a bad idea to simply edit as 60i.

So in what case would you edit using the 24p preset in an NLE, say Final Cut Pro? What happens if you dump the HV20's 24p footage into the 24p timeline?

if you dump it into a 24p timeline without removing the pulldown it will just thinks it's another 60i clip and it will want to render everything.

The HV-20 cine clips are not like the other canons PsF frames they are P in a 60i Mpeg 2 stream(same pull you would use on say a Sony)

and.....

Barlow,
I think the HDV (60i) over the Cine (24p) setting actually hurts the HV 20 performance
As for i-AF ...turn it off

Here's a clip from the HV20 and Brevis.

http://disk.dvinfo.net/public/media/canonhv20/BrevisHV20-72024p.mov

What settings in CT did you use for the telecline?

I have tried many and no luck......using MPEGSTREAM and AIC Full quality then CT, no matter what option I have used I still get the interlaced artifacts.

Barlow. No access to the clip. Maybe to many jumped on it already...

It's uploaded to the server. I don't know if I posted an incorrect url or not. I sent an email to Chris's server guy so hopefully it'll get resolved soon.

It's basic raw test footage with a few minor mistakes (I didn't zoom in far enough on the ground glass to not see edge vibration in the frame) but it was still fun to tweak. It's kind of high contrast "grunge" stuff for effect. Hope you like it.

Barlow:

How did you set up the Brevis-- 72 achromat, or the standard ?

How hard to set up zoom and focus.

Got HV20 on order, and looking at Brevis, so am a bit curious.

Barlow:

How did you set up the Brevis-- 72 achromat, or the standard ?

How hard to set up zoom and focus.

Got HV20 on order, and looking at Brevis, so am a bit curious.

Actually used a step ring with a Red Rock achromat. Not too hard to set zoom and focus, but I'm pretty new to this stuff so it's not quite as sharp as I'm sure it can ultimately look, but I still like the results.

Funny. I have the Brevis Achromat, and using it with my DIY 35Micro built from plans by Redrock :)

Link should work now. Right click/save

http://disk.dvinfo.net/public/media/canonhv20/BrevisHV20-72024p.mov

Indeed. I'd almost buy a PAL version of the camera simply to be free from this annoyance.
It costs twice as much, you know. That's the problem. ;)