Okay...has anyone heard anymore of this ?
this would be amazing if it really works...

Recording HD-SDI from the Canon XL-H1 to this drive array....330mbps.

http://ctt.ru/products/hd/flash_dvr/

I also just found this PDF file....

http://www.kinor.ru/files/images/Kinor_fdvr.pdf

I checked the price for the Flash DVR. The cost is from $6200 and it is available in one month.

Recording HD-SDI from the Canon XL-H1 to a drive array....330mbps.



Kevin,

We at Colorspace, Inc. will be debuting pre-production models of our HD SDI recorder at NAB in April. For all the product details, please see the product page at www.colorspaceinc.com/icon.

Please note that although our primary focus is on building an uncompressed solution for digital cinema, we will also be offering a prosumer version, priced within the sub 10K market, which utilizes high bitrate compression specifically aimed for use with Canon's XL H1, XH G1 and JVC's HD-250.

-Drew

WOW...thanks guys...

We'll certainly check it out at NAB ! Having the ability to record directly from the HD-SDI on the Canon....and NOT go to tape would be awesome !

Kevin,

We at Colorspace, Inc. will be debuting pre-production models of our HD SDI recorder at NAB in April. For all the product details, please see the product page at www.colorspaceinc.com/icon.

Please note that although our primary focus is on building an uncompressed solution for digital cinema, we will also be offering a prosumer version, priced within the sub 10K market, which utilizes high bitrate compression specifically aimed for use with Canon's XL H1, XH G1 and JVC's HD-250.

-Drew

Great to hear this Drew,

Since you don't have it built yet. Please remember that us H1 users don't have audio or time code embedded in our HS-SDI out, so we need input jacks for both.

Thanks

With absolutely ALL due respect, those prices are way too much for a small fry like me - who still wants to do HD-SDI.
They're hard drives for goodness sake!
Once I find a solution that's significantly less than the cost of my H1, I'll be more inclined to buy.
Until then, a little indy guy like me is stuck with - shutter - HDV.

Matthew...

while I agree with your assessment of those "exhorbitant" prices, I disagree with your reluctance to use HDV. I think a little research will prove to you that the m2t output of the HD series of camcorders is very comparable to the component output. The only difference being the 4:2:2 colorspace...useful if you're doing chromakey work, but, not really noticeable in the image; and, the small losses due to mpeg compression.

Great to hear this Drew,
Please remember that us H1 users don't have audio or time code embedded in our HS-SDI out, so we need input jacks for both.


With absolutely ALL due respect, those prices are way too much for a small fry like me - who still wants to do HD-SDI.
They're hard drives for goodness sake!


Ken,

Don't worry. We've got you covered ;) We are also going to be making some pretty exciting announcements at NAB regarding partnerships and features. Our whole goal is to help blur the line between digital cinema and indie/prosumer camera systems.

Matthew,

Our system is and has to be a WHOLE LOT more than just hard drives. The ICON requires some incredibly sophisticated logic, similar to a powerful PC, reduced to the size of a shoe box. Thats also not even considering the unique functionality including 7" LCD touchscreen for control and playback, removable/hot-swappable media packs with rolling cache, etc.

We will be demonstrating capture quality comparisons at our booth at NAB. Be sure to stop by to see for yourself the many advantages of HD SDI capture.

Thanks,
Drew

Matthew...

while I agree with your assessment of those "exhorbitant" prices, I disagree with your reluctance to use HDV. I think a little research will prove to you that the m2t output of the HD series of camcorders is very comparable to the component output. The only difference being the 4:2:2 colorspace...useful if you're doing chromakey work, but, not really noticeable in the image; and, the small losses due to mpeg compression.

Bill, I have shot many times with various HDV cameras, including the XL-H1 (which is my favorite of the bunch, so far). The HDV format does have a lot of built in value, but to compare 4:2:2 signal to Mpeg2 and refer to "small losses" is just misleading.

You're talking about the difference between 1400+megabit/sec (XL-H1 HD-SDI), and 25megabit/sec (XL-H1 HDV/tape). The difference between 1400 and 25 is not a "small one." If you happen to be shooting a low-motion scene with your exposure dead-on, and less than 6 stops of contrast in the lighting, then yes the picture will look "pretty darn good." But that's where the buck stops (in my opinion). If you add under/overexposure into the equation, high motion, high contrast, etc.. it's no longer pretty darn good. Some of the "look" is going to be subjective, so maybe what is acceptable to one person isn't acceptable to another, but no one can deny the mathematical differences between 1400 and 25, and the fact that when you reduce a signal that is 1400Mb to 25Mb, you are throwing away a TON of data.

Drew,

If you're looking for someone to beta test for you...let me know ! We'll be at NAB and stop by !

Kevin,

We at Colorspace, Inc. will be debuting pre-production models of our HD SDI recorder at NAB in April. For all the product details, please see the product page at www.colorspaceinc.com/icon.

Please note that although our primary focus is on building an uncompressed solution for digital cinema, we will also be offering a prosumer version, priced within the sub 10K market, which utilizes high bitrate compression specifically aimed for use with Canon's XL H1, XH G1 and JVC's HD-250.

-Drew


Maybe I'm mis-reading, but the Russian unit is going for $6400 and provides a platform to record "un-compressed" HD-SDI. Your unit, according to your site, is going to sell for upwards of $30k. While your "pro-sumer compressed" version will sell for around $10k.

That prompts a whole lot of questions. And as someone who doesn't have a lot of money to spend and is prepping a VERY low budget feature - I would love to find an uncompressed HD-SDI solution. If it's compressed - I'll just stick with my Firestore or go HDV.

I have to agree with Matthew to the extent that the storage system shouldn't out-cost the camera - it's kind of like the tires costing more than the car. I have no doubt that your product will be the Rolls Royce of solutions, but the reality is that the reason a lot of owners (and maybe it was just me) of the XL H1, the most expensive of the "pro-sumer" HDV cameras, bought it was because of it's quality and the fact that we couldn't afford to spend the money required for a low-level HD camera. But we do use these as "professional" cameras and would more than appreciate a cost-like alternative to record the best output possible from our camera.

Hopefully, these types of systems will follow the pattern of the P2 cards and provide more for the cost as time goes on or get cheaper.

Just my .02.

Maybe I'm mis-reading, but the Russian unit is going for $6400 and provides a platform to record "un-compressed" HD-SDI.

I am only vaguely familiar with this Russian device, but I believe it only offers 4:2:2 uncompressed recording. Likewise, they say no mechanical parts, from which I infer that your 20 minute recording space is embedded-- meaning if you need an hour of storage, you must buy three devices. The ICON features media packs-- which means a $10k package (to pick a round number) will include the recorder AND a media pack (which can also be longer than 20 minutes). So expanding your recording space to a few hours involves buying only a couple extra media packs. Plus the ICON offers a removable touchscreen, metadata, file management, etc. 20 minutes of uncompressed 4:2:2 for $6k is indeed a pretty awesome value, and I'm looking forward to seeing one of these in person once they hit the market.

your "pro-sumer compressed" version will sell for around $10k.

Yes. Let me just stress that we're talking about highbitrate compression-- on the order of HDCAM or better. So while the product may be targeted at the prosumer, the compression will be commensurate with that used to shoot Star Wars.

prepping a VERY low budget feature - I would love to find an uncompressed HD-SDI solution. If it's compressed - I'll just stick with my Firestore or go HDV.

Again, let me point out, we're talking about extremely light compression. 5-10x the bitrate of HDV, and with much more efficient codecs. Frankly, the uncompressed product isn't targeted at the indie market, because few in the indie market could afford the workflow-- we're talking about a terabyte of storage per HOUR of 1080p uncompressed footage. I don't know how many setups you're doing, or what your shot ratio is, but if you're shooting a few hours of takes/content per day, that's a few thousand dollars PER DAY in just backing up data to firewire drives. Not even online storage. Then you need to address editing-- working uncompressed 1080p is extremely expensive. You can work with proxies and do an online conform later, which is cheaper, but again all of this stuff still costs lots of money-- but basically the jist of what we've found is that many indie users want uncompressed recording, but virtually none can afford it. High bitrate compresion is a good solution to this, as it retains a vast amount of the data and flexibility of an uncompressed workflow, but offers 1/10th the cost for storage and is much more managable for realtime editing as well. Even HDCAMSR 4:4:4 recording isn't uncompressed (it's around 3:1).


I have to agree with Matthew to the extent that the storage system shouldn't out-cost the camera - it's kind of like the tires costing more than the car. I have no doubt that your product will be the Rolls Royce of solutions...

That is an acceptable paradigm in higher end cinema recording-- where each element poses a significant cost. A $140k 35mm body, with a $60k lens, and hundreds of thousands of dollars of film run through it during the course of production. Or a $100k F950 tethered to an SRW1 that also costs $100k, with a $30k lens on the body. And you're right.. it's a less familiar paradigm as you get into the lower budgets, but I think most indie users who are actually shooting films understand the idea that the camera is just a fraction of the budget. You have tripods, dollies, lights, grip equipment, crew, meals, permits, etc. I wish we could get the compressed ICON to the point where it was only $1500-- but to offer the kind of functionality we're building in, that just isn't feasible. We are working very hard to get the pricing as low as possible.. as we know the XL-H1 is already at the upper reaches of many budgets. Ultimately, it won't be available to everyone, but we're working to make it feasible for as many as possible-- and even for those who can't afford to buy one for their XL-H1, it might sense enough for important shots to rent one for a day (or sell the client on the idea of justifying the slight budget increase for rental).


Let me stress I'm NOT trying to be critical at all, and we *GREATLY* value this sort of feedback and dialogue. As you guys let us know where you're coming from (what your budget is, that you'd like to record uncompressed, etc), I'm trying to let you know where we're coming from-- so we can find a middle ground that empowers as many filmmakers as possible.

Adam/ Drew,

I'm sorry I won't get to NAB to see the product, but the 2k I save will be a deposit toward buying it later...

Michael/ Matthew,

I'm pretty darn sure that if someone could make an HD-SDI Firestore for 2k, they would. And maybe someday someone will. I'm no techno geek, but uncompressed 1080i is a lot of data coming at you very fast. I've been listening to people talk about this for over a year, and this is the closest thing I've heard to portable and affordable so far.

These new units are something that we should be able to rent for a couple of days when we need it, and you will then have the option of using it without having to buy it. Right now, Wafian is the only option at 15k, and it sure doesn't look to portable to me. This capture solution just extends the range of the H1 and the others that have HD-SDI outputs.

And I don't like to sound harsh, but I've never thought of the Russians as being of the leading edge of digital media technology.

Matthew...

while I agree with your assessment of those "exhorbitant" prices, I disagree with your reluctance to use HDV. I think a little research will prove to you that the m2t output of the HD series of camcorders is very comparable to the component output. The only difference being the 4:2:2 colorspace...useful if you're doing chromakey work, but, not really noticeable in the image; and, the small losses due to mpeg compression.

I'm sorry, Bill. My bad. I meant to put a "wink" at the end of my statement. I actually LOVE HDV. I really do! My comment was meant to be sarcastic because I SHOULD be happy with HDV. My only - only - thought is that... if I CAN go HD-SDI out, with it's beautiful 4:2:2 colour space and added resolution, I sure would like to.
I'm used to BetaSP, which I think has much better colours, in my opinion, so DV25 always distracts me until I get a bit of CC into it.

We all want something just a LITTLE better, don't we?

Drew:
Don't worry. I'm sure your prices are in line with what you're delivering. Not everyone can afford the coolest stuff. I'll just have to wait until I can. Thanks for the note.

Adam -

The XL H1 is a 4:2:2 workspace - so that's all I would expect - and the issue isn't about editing in uncompressed video, it's having the opportunity to on-line and have a resulting master created with uncompressed video AND the best possible starting point of going film out if that is an opportunity presented to us (most, if not all the films we make are aimed at the festival market). Now the arguement could be made that the cost the ICON could be spread out over several projects, but that still supposes having all the money to make the initial investment in the first place.

NOW - if you REALLY want to make an impression, PM me and perhaps we could arrange to Beta test your product in a real-time work setting - we start shooting in Los Angeles for 2 weeks on April 23rd (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) :-)

Ken -

Not sure that Firestore would ever spend the time or resources to develop a 2k storage device for the XL H1. In fact, if I remember correctly, there was a thread the specifically discussed that point. Something about preferring to go after the next bigger, better thing getting all the attention (sorry, I just don't remember all the specifics). And I'm not trying to be critical of Firestore - it's just good business sense.

As far as the Russians being cutting edge - LOL - perhaps. But it wasn't too long ago that Made in Japan was a big joke and today Made in China is becoming less of one. Given the global access to information regarding technological innovation, I think it would be short-sighted to presume that innovation or break-through would be limited to a few select areas of the globe.

All -

Ultimately, for me anyway, it's about getting the best possible picture out of the camera that I can for exhibition. If that has to be HDV then I need to be able to exploit that to the greatest degree possible. I have a camera with HD-SDI out and have a belief that I can get a better product because of it. However, that doesn't seem to be possible at the moment because there really isn't anything out there to support it; at least to the degree that I can afford. Of course there are some solutions, but again, not cheap - an HDCAM deck costs around $60k to buy and to rent, around $1800/wk. A corresponding Mac setup might be cheaper, but no more portable.

Perhaps my complaint should be directed at Canon for providing something that has great potential but no "inexpensive" practical solution... :-)

Hi Adam,

Any more plans for HDMI input and maybe even output (for monitoring) on the ICON? Probably not so useful for the uncompressed version, but I could definitely see some use in the compressed version with prosumer cameras like the Sony V1U, Canon HV20, etc.

Interesting. Thinking out loud... $30K and $10K might be beneficial to corporate budgets for an easy solution.

Many folks on the board here would have to beg the question that for $10k and a little work, you could build a shoebox PC with an internal array, software and cineform solution. Not only would you have a capture box, but you'd also have a dual purpose edit bay in one solution (better than a notebook). That's less equipment to haul around to boot.

Granted, I've dragged my spare workstation to some shoots and it's a pain even for fixed or locked off shots. The whole idea here is for plug and play portability.

Reliability of these devices would be very key here. Having a workstation could pose a host of things that could go wrong. So $10K might be worthwhile insurance and convenience.

Hi Adam,

Any more plans for HDMI input and maybe even output (for monitoring) on the ICON? Probably not so useful for the uncompressed version, but I could definitely see some use in the compressed version with prosumer cameras like the Sony V1U, Canon HV20, etc.

Yea, we're strongly considering HDMI. I'll probably post a poll in the next few days as time allows, to try and gauge how many interested users there are.. but I have no doubt that it's good functionality to add.. it's just a matter of addressing how much demand there is for it, so we can direct the appropriate resources to adding it.


Reliability of these devices would be very key here. Having a workstation could pose a host of things that could go wrong. So $10K might be worthwhile insurance and convenience.

Yea, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, why buy a dolly when you can use a shoppingcart/wheelchair..? Ultimately, it all comes down to everything being a tool.. and using the right tool for the right jobs. The ICON will be just another (hopefully very useful) tool in the kit.

Compression is the future. Andromeda, Red, P2, Cineform, even HDV. These are the leaders. HDSDI is an analog/digital hybrid that's not even remotely cost effective at this level of production. Good Luck with it though I hope you sell millions. Thanks for stopping by.

Compression is the future. Andromeda, Red, P2, Cineform, even HDV. These are the leaders. HDSDI is an analog/digital hybrid that's not even remotely cost effective at this level of production. Good Luck with it though I hope you sell millions. Thanks for stopping by.

Charles,

We do offer various compression codecs on our prosumer version of the ICON, however, they are high bitrate options intended to preserve footage fidelity, while shrinking data rates to make the post work flow easier to manage - yet, not intended to shrink data rates simply for their own sake.

Additionally, in my opinion the aptly named HD-SDI (High Definition Serial Digital Interface) isn't necessarily a cost prohibitive technology (normal BNC cables can carry the signal - card costs range from $1000 on up) or one that will disappear any time soon considering that almost every existing and most future digital cameras (including Red) not only offer, but endorse this interface for use along all current SMPTE standards.

Another thing to consider is the constant evolution of media storage with drives continuously getting faster, bigger and cheaper. Most digital cinema productions are simply not willing to utilize any sort of compression because they want to preserve the original digital negative - untainted, without any sort of manipulation. And as more feature productions begin to switch to a completely tapeless, digital workflow, I think you will see uncompressed as the capture selection of choice (think Zodiac and the upcoming Benjamin Buttons). As the progression of storage media continues at a rapid pace, compression will become a forethought because users will soon be able to capture RAW uncompressed footage to a minimal amount of high capacity drives.

I think the true question is whether productions will accept or endorse compression as an acceptable part of the workflow process before storage media makes the need for compression a non-issue. By building an uncompressed recorder (to suit the needs of high end digital cinema), but also offering a high-bitrate compressed version (working directly with companies like CineForm), I feel we've hedged our bets nicely. :)

Word. When I shoot Superman Returns Again I'll score a couple from you. We have a 100 million dollar budget but were going to shoot it with the XLH1 just to thumb our noses at the indies. Seriously, good luck with it, everything is going tapeless no maybe but I personally see compression as the more fruitful pursuit. Record>Mag Tape>CD>MP3. Film>Tape>Drives>Cards?

Adam, four more questions please.

1. Does Colorspace have ANY other product IN production?
2. If so, where can data on it be found?
3. Is Colorspace waiting for a threashold of pre-production orders prior to going into production on these recorders?
4. When is Colorspace going to have un-ordered Indi recorders on the shelf?

Being very old I have seen startup products many many times before so may I ask for straight answers please. No spin, no adjenda, no politics.

Thx

Van...

1: I take this question to mean, "is this our first [publicly released] product?" If that's what you're asking: yes, the ICON will be the first publicly available product from us. Followed shortly by the INDI. If you're asking if we're working on anything else besides the ICON / INDI, the answer is yes, but that's all i'll say publicly.

2: Data on everything we're in a position to discuss publicly can be found on our web site (http://www.colorspaceinc.com). Currently, the site is a single placeholder page we put up to promote our presence at NAB.. the new site will go live sometime this weekend. As we get closer to release of the ICON / INDI, there will be a lot more data added to the site (white papers, sample frames, etc).

3: We have already reached a threshold of private orders (from early adopter customers) that allows us to feel comfortable in the size of the market. The ICON and INDI will go into production as soon as the beta models are tested to our satisfaction. The pre-order threshold we are still looking for, is one to gauge the total size of the market, so that we can address some of the remaining manufacturing issues. The biggest of these issues basically comes down to materials, where we have to decide if certain parts are being made "one-off" out of metal, or cast from metal in batches. Regardless of the outcome of that issue, the products will hit the market.. but in a best case scenario, it could probably mean a 10-15% drop in price.

4: In all honesty, this is a question I can't answer with complete certainty at this point. Best guess puts the ICON on the market around October, and the INDI sometime around the turn of the year. We will fill all of our pre-orders, and then taper down production to create a small surplus of retail stock. I don't think we will ever be at a point where we have hundreds of these sitting on shelves, although we are going to try and anticipate demand such that a few months after retail release, there should hopefully be little or no waiting period to purchase from us or a reseller.

One upside to the pre-orders is that a good portion of the pre-orders will be from distributors, so in all likelihood several of the first units manufactured will find themselves sitting on retail shelves almost immediately. (Although I suspect many of those distributors will have "preferred" customers who will be offered first chance at the products)

With respect to reservations / pre-orders, we are taking reservations, and we're not asking individuals (or small businesses) to place deposits. Which is to say, those who are reserving 2 or fewer of a product, can do so without spending a dime. A couple weeks before your pre-order is getting ready to go to assembly, we ask you to commit an assembly deposit to keep your "spot in line," and then pay the order in full upon delivery of the product. We're also offering early adopters a year of free software upgrades, as a way of saying thanks for believing in the products. For anyone reading this who is interesting in placing a pre-order, please contact Drew directly. (drew@colorspaceinc.com)

If you're not familiar, our product model involves software upgrades to combat obsolescence. Which is to say we release our products into the wild meeting a minimum set of specs, and then continue further development. In the case of the INDI, for instance, this might mean the first INDIs only record 1 file format at say 2 different bit rates. And then a few weeks later we push our first software upgrade, adding 3 or 4 more bit rates. And then a month or two later we push another software upgrade adding a second file format. And so on. Under normal circumstances, some of these software updates will be free, and some will be "upgrades" purchased on an individual basis. For our early adopters, the upgrades will all be free of charge for the first year.

The upgrades will be downloadable from our web site, or delivered via e-mail, loaded by the customer onto a compact flash card, which is inserted into the CF slot on the ICON / INDI, select the "prefs" tab on the touchscreen, scroll down and select "uprade firmware," and then select the upgrades you want to apply from the list of those found on the CF card. Voila.

Let me know if you have any more questions, or I misunderstood one you posed.

Adam S. Burtle
Colorspace, Inc.

Thanks Adam,
I am probably on board for an Indi, but we shall see where Colorspace takes it.