ok, you guys have been great with advice and I have narrowed my search to a few cams. heres the list:

sony dsr pd170
canon gl2/or xl1s
sony hvr a1
pan agdvc30

comments????

Wow! that is a wide selection of video cameras. All of which excel at certain types of subject matter. I guess you need to start by telling us what type of projects you plan to do.

- Interviews
- Sports
- Documentry
- Nature
- Macro
- Studio
- Weddings

Give us some more information and we go from there.

Regards,

EVERYTHING!!!!!!!

I'm not sure as to what I will do most of, but i do know that I want something that will give me a good picture. I will eventually move up to a hiigher end cam but im torn between these cams. the posts here have been great, but I think I read too many becuase now im at a loss. I have felt these cams in my hand and im leaning towards the sony hvr bcus of hidef, but i really like the chasis on the dvc30.

maybe I should roll the dice???

maybe I should roll the dice???

LOL Sam....I understand your position....A little of everything!!!

Maybe you should do what I did...buy the first one that comes along you can afford...

Good luck and keep us posted on what you end up with...

Bob T.

Do you need HD? What will you use HD for and how would you distribute it?

If you are planning to upgrade in a year or so anyway, is HD worth it?

If not, don't think of it as an advantage.

Sam,

I have used both the GL-2, XL2 and the DVC-30. I am going to recommend the DVC-30 because IMO it would suit the largest variety of shooting conditions. Its 16x lens, compact and durable "tank-like" body, really smooth slow speed zoom, scene file setting capability, decent low-light capability as well excellent picture quality make it a stand-out. Don't get me wrong all the cams you listed are good. But this is the one I like the best. Also, I wouldn't get caught up now in HD because how are you going to distribute it? Most all commerical DVDs are still in SD. Additionally, SD editing software is mature and well thought out as opposed to the HD work-a-rounds that are common in some editing software.

Hope this helps....

how would I distribut it? well, hopefully with my hands! hahahahah....no, just kidding, I know what you mean. I guess if i had to narrow it down, i am torn between the dvc30 or the vx2100. I am also buying used from bh as I am turning in some of my studio equipment to them for trade. what i reallly want to do is get into 24p. but i think thats a lil farther down the line(late fall). does anybody have a link to a clip shot by the dvc30?

Sure, go to my website. About 95% of the clips posted there are shot with the DVC30. If you want to see less compression then e-mail me your address and I will send you a DVD of a nature project I am about to release.

Regards,

DON't buy used!!! i know too many people that bought used cams and at first it seemed like a steal until they had to pay for repairs or servicing! you might as well spend the extra couple hundreds bucks and buy it new!

personally, i vote against HD, i know it's tempting but there seems to be a lot of hassle with HD video, i keep reading that people have problems editing it, the footage takes up a LOT more space and if you truely want to see the HD result you'll need an HD burner, HD dvds, HD player and HD tv, there's so much more $$ you have to invest in....but on the upside, you would be buying a camera that will not be out of date for a long time...weigh your options, spend money now, or spend it later.

if i were you i'd consider some other things too, like sound, the gl2 doesn't have xlr inputs, i dont think the vx2100 has them either, if you pick either of those two cams you'll have to settle for the onboard mic, or rig up a ghetto conversion box(it would only cost a few bucks to make, but it looks unprofessional). now the pd170 or a1u has xlr's and they both come with a directional shotgun mic that is rather decent. i havent really used any panny's first hand so i wont comment on them.

what about portability? do you want something small and portable? keep things liek that in mind. a bigger camera is sometimes a bit frustrating in tight places...

it's a tough decision to buy a cam...good luck.

PS. extended warranties are 99.8% profit for stores! if they push the warranty its because they know that you'll never have a problem with the rock solid product they're trying to sell you!

Question: Does the DVC30 do widescreen?

It would be a definite deal killer for me if anything I was considering did not.

Question: Does the DVC30 do widescreen?

It would be a definite deal killer for me if anything I was considering did not.

Hi,

Nope it does not. It has a Squeeze mode like the DVX 100 (A,B) and as the GL2, vx2100(pd...). The only 16-9 chips are in the XL2 (in SD i mean).

Phil

personally, i vote against HD, i know it's tempting but there seems to be a lot of hassle with HD video, i keep reading that people have problems editing it, the footage takes up a LOT more space and if you truely want to see the HD result you'll need an HD burner, HD dvds, HD player and HD tv, there's so much more $$ you have to invest in....but on the upside, you would be buying a camera that will not be out of date for a long time...weigh your options, spend money now, or spend it later.


I disagree with the vote. I have both HD and SD, and my SD camera sits idle most of the time. There is a requirement for working storage (i.e., large disk space availability), and a robust CPU. However, I've found that (for the cameras I can afford), the HD camera ends up with a much higher quality SD result than does the SD camera. Eventually I'll want to start with the HD burners, once one format or the other demonstrates a clear advantage in the market. Even so, SD-DVDs created from my HD footage have a much better picture on my HD TV than the SD-DVDs created from my SD footage.

My next camera later this spring is definitely going to be HD....

Anyhow, that's just *my* opinion, out of many available.

Thanks,
Matt

I have VX2000 and FX1. I use my FX1 in any most situations these days. I shoot HDV. If I am going to go to an SD with it, I simply edit in Premeire Pro 2.0, and then render an output in SD. Alternatively, when I mix the VX and FX1 footage, I will capture the HDV from the FX1, in the downcoverted DV mode out of camera.

VX 16:9 has a bad rep. I have mixed footage from the FX1 and VX 16:9, going to DVD, with a decent result .

ok, you guys have been great with advice and I have narrowed my search to a few cams. heres the list:

sony dsr pd170
canon gl2/or xl1s
sony hvr a1
pan agdvc30

comments????

If you're going to stay with SD, consider the Canon XL2 instead of the older GL2 or XL1 models.

WOW, so many opinions. now im really lost!(not) well, the size isnt a matter for me coming from using a jvcdv500u. I am considering pd170 or dvc30. xlr is a big must as i have two exp mics w/boom poles. as for the a1u, dont know what that is......be right back(surfing)........

..as for the a1u, dont know what that is......be right back(surfing)........


the a1u is the a1...same camera, different abbreviations.

let us know what you end up picking and why you chose it, i always like to hear more opinions on cams!

take care,

-bryan

Actually, A1U does lool like it covers most of what you are looking for. 16:9, XLR inputs, portability, actually priced better than PD 170, I think.

You will have not as good success in low light, if that is an issue for you.

VX 16:9 has a bad rep. I have mixed footage from the FX1 and VX 16:9, going to DVD, with a decent result .

That's good to know it's working for you, but running a 4:3 DV camera in widescreen mode is pushing the limits of technology to an undesirable extent. That's reason enough to favor widescreen-native cameras over 4:3 models for general-purpose use, since it's easier to get acceptable 4:3 video from a widescreen camera than vice-versa.

My recommendation for someone getting started today would be any decent widescreen camera, so Canon XL2/XL-H1 or Sony A1U/FX1/V1U, etc. The A1U is a fun little camera but has some limitations for professional use, especially in poor lighting.

Duuuhhhhh!!!! Yep, im green!lol I could probably run circles around you guys in a recording studio forum, but dang do I feel like a rookie. what do you guys think about jvc grhd1? also, why not buy used? i was gonna do it from bh, I though that was a reliable sponsor?

I'd go with an XL2.

That's good to know it's working for you, but running a 4:3 DV camera in widescreen mode is pushing the limits of technology to an undesirable extent.

I'd have to side with Kevin on this. I have a VX-2000, a PDX-10 and a Z1. The PDX-10 might be a candidate if you can find a nice used one. It does full quality 16:9. On the VX you are only working with 360 vertical lines in 16:9 mode (instead of the full 480). I think most people will notice the difference right away, especially in these days where widescreen TV's are common.

But it has a lot to do with your subject material. A closeup of a face will look OK in 16:9 on the VX because at that scale you don't expect any more detail. But a wide shot just looks like it's out of focus; I find that completely unacceptable myself. The VX and PD are great cameras for 4:3 - very pleasing quality to the image and great low light performance. But I wouldn't even give them a second thought if you want 16:9 in today's world....

WOW, so many opinions. now im really lost!(not) well, the size isnt a matter for me coming from using a jvcdv500u.

Is that a GY-DV500U (shoulder mount camera)?

yes it is....more like a back mount as heavy as it is..lol....My budget is 1500.00, so an xl2 is out right now, I did come across an xl1s for 1750.00, i was considering this one as well. I think this forum is a BLURSE. (blessing and curse) the blessing is that alot of professionals have taken thier time to answer questions respectively and honestly, the curse is that so many of you have great points and opinions for each cam. I have never been an indecisive buyer, until now with video. I think what i will do is buy what I can afford, hopefully I can find a great deal(cant access classifieds,dam new guy). If you were voting, who will you vote for? just give me model numbers no reasons, my head is spinning enough!

you guys rock!

But it has a lot to do with your subject material. A closeup of a face will look OK in 16:9 on the VX because at that scale you don't expect any more detail.



Agreed. But. But when the original post started out, we were talking about low end, lower priced cameras, and poster brought up the PD170 and 16:9. Depending on what your subject matter is, it can work. Wide shots of small object, and scenics, forget it. But at the level of price he originally was discussing, you are compromising....

But when the original post started out, we were talking about low end, lower priced cameras, and poster brought up the PD170 and 16:9.

I have an HC1 which I really like for run-around use, since it's small enough to be convenient without being too small to hold steady. It works well in HDV, widescreen DV or regular DV mode, and if the main subject matter is outdoors then the low-light limitations wouldn't be a problem. Now that I think about it, this could be an excellent choice for the original poster's needs. Among other things, the HC series cameras are small enough to fit in a large zippered jacket pocket, like say while snowboarding down a mountain...

yes it is....more like a back mount as heavy as it is..lol....My budget is 1500.00, so an xl2 is out right now, I did come across an xl1s for 1750.00, i was considering this one as well. I think this forum is a BLURSE. (blessing and curse) the blessing is that alot of professionals have taken thier time to answer questions respectively and honestly, the curse is that so many of you have great points and opinions for each cam. I have never been an indecisive buyer, until now with video. I think what i will do is buy what I can afford, hopefully I can find a great deal(cant access classifieds,dam new guy). If you were voting, who will you vote for? just give me model numbers no reasons, my head is spinning enough!

you guys rock!

A GY-DV500U is in a class up from the (SD) cameras you are considering. Perhaps if you could tell us what makes the GY-DV500U undesirable for your purposes, we could offer better advice.

One camera I don't think you've considered, is a GY-DV300U (a very good 3-1/3" CCD, handheld camera, with XLR input and considerable control over image acquisition). Used GY-DV300Us are typically selling for around $1000.

BTW, none of the camcorders you mentioned that you are considering, in your post that started this thread, will shoot 24p. The GL2 and DVC30 do not have XLR input. Only the Sony A1 would shoot over 360 lines (effectively) of 16:9 video.

If you sold the DV500U, along with the $1500 you have budgeted, you could get a DVX100, an XL2 or perhaps a Canon XH-A1.

A GY-DV500U is in a class up from the (SD) cameras you are considering. Perhaps if you could tell us what makes the GY-DV500U undesirable for your purposes, we could offer better advice.

its too big and about 7 years old. high drum hours etc, i will look into the dv300........be right back..............(surfing)...........

If you sell the GY-DV500U, I'd suggest you get the Canon XH-A1. If you decide to keep the GY-DV500U, I'd suggest you get a GY-DV300U. With a budget of $1500, I just don't think you'll get more bang for your buck. At $1500, you aren't going to get 24p anyway and will be awfully hard pressed to find a camera, that has XLR input, with better overall performance (or manual control) than a GY-DV300U.

I can wait for 24p, its not my most major concern. I saw what the dv300 looks like, but its been hard to locate. I think i might do the xl1s........still searching

ps... no one has commented on the jvc grhd1.....

I just called BH photo and got the used video department. they have an xl1s for 2399., and althought its not what i want to spend, i could do the extra 800.(after begging my wife and agreeing to cook for the next 30 days). Ya know, the rep was rude, unhelpful and it seemed HE was offended that i didnt know too much about the cam. I merely asked him about the drum hours(didnt know xl1s does not have that info), aske dhim about warranty and i felt i had to pry to get him to tell me about the 1 yr exted by MACK. he treated me poorly. made me feel like a greenie(ok so I am) but, I am the consumer right? I need a hug!.......still searching

The XL1s (and XL2 for that matter) doesn't have XLR input. It could be difficult to find an XL1s, in good condition, for under $1500.

Two other 3 chip SD camcorders, with XLR input, that you might be able to find used for $1500 or less, would be a Sony PD150 (handheld, with 3-1/3") or a Panasonic DVC15 (shoulder mount, with 3-1/4" chips).

An HD1U doesn't have XLR input either. The HD10U does allow XLR input (through a converter on the handle attachment) and going prices (used) are almost the same as for the HD1U (around $1000). Two downsides to either camera are notably poor performance in low light (minimum illumination rating of 35 lux) and lack of manual control (you can't manually set shutter speed and aperture at the same time).

ok, the pd150 looks great! it has the xlr and also some good reviews here, but what the heck does this mean?

The hours are Operation 193 x10h, Drum 56 x10h, Tape 32 x10h, and Threading 244 x10h.

this cam is 1500.00, this seems pretty high for this cam with this info. I mean, if i can recall,(going back to 1980) when i was using 1/2 tape on a tascam 8 trak recorder, we always looged our sessions to account for head wear, cleaning periods etc. i do remeber some parts of grade school, am i to multiply these equations? what should this item go for at this rate?

Sam:

One other issue. You seem to be pushing for xlr inputs. There are alternatives there. With my Sony VX2000, for instance, I use a Beachtech DX4a (or is it A4) adapter. Bolts to bottom of camera, feeds camera, with through the minijack. As a sound guy, you may have your opinions about that, but it has been a course taken by many to add pro mics to their cameras.

ok, the pd150 looks great! it has the xlr and also some good reviews here, but what the heck does this mean?

The hours are Operation 193 x10h, Drum 56 x10h, Tape 32 x10h, and Threading 244 x10h.

this cam is 1500.00, this seems pretty high for this cam with this info. I mean, if i can recall,(going back to 1980) when i was using 1/2 tape on a tascam 8 trak recorder, we always looged our sessions to account for head wear, cleaning periods etc. i do remeber some parts of grade school, am i to multiply these equations? what should this item go for at this rate?

It might be pretty difficult to find a PD150, with low hours, for $1500 or less. I still suggest the DV300U, as a better value per dollar (can be found for $1000 or less, with low hours).

holy crap, i didnt check this thread for a day and i missed out on so many posts! ..sam, even i'm confused for you...

if youre still thinking about that A1, here's a good link with some specs on it, see what you think and try and compare it to other cameras you're looking at.

http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/article.php?filename=Comparison-Table-of-HDR-HC1-and-HVR-A1

maybe that will help a little?

cHRIS...WHAT YOU SMOKIN DUDE! THATS LIKE ME ASKING YOU VID GUYS TO SHOOT A DOC WITH VHS! LOL....actually, mini jacks do not hold the heat like 1/4 or xlr, mini jacks tend to degrade the sound, burn up and are not built sturdy enough. plus, i like 3 pin seats for true ground. I also like the wire to be a mucher thicker gauge for burn loss. i cant find a site online that has those cams, if you see a post please advise before the missus changes her mood again. bryan, thanks for the link ill check it now...and stop sleeping dude, catch up!........(surfing).............

i cant find a site online that has those cams, if you see a post please advise before the missus changes her mood again.

DV300Us can be found on eBay, from time to time. I don't see any listed right now. Some real gems can be found on eBay, but if you are not familiar with eBay, be very cautious there.

cHRIS...WHAT YOU SMOKIN DUDE! THATS LIKE ME ASKING YOU VID GUYS TO SHOOT A DOC WITH VHS! LOL....actually, mini jacks do not hold the heat like 1/4 or xlr, mini jacks tend to degrade the sound, burn up and are not built sturdy enough. plus, i like 3 pin seats for true ground. I also like the wire to be a mucher thicker gauge for burn loss.

I have a strong distaste for 1/8" jacks and highly recommend XLRs for durability. However, if you use a Beachtek adapter an 1/8" mic jack should work fine, especially if you leave it plugged in all the time and not connect and disconnect it continually. You have to remember that the only unbalanced run is from the adapter to the mic jack which is only about 12", so you shouldn't get any RF in that short of space. The Beachtek adapter balances the XLR run to the microphone. The cable gauge is also not an issue since it's a short run. The Beachtek can also bump up the level so you're not requiring your camera's preamps to do all the gain (most don't do well with low output mics). The other problem is that many cameras that have 1/8" mic jacks also do auto gain control, you want to avoid that at all costs. Also having an 1/8" jack may indicate less robust audio performance of the camera in general.

I'm not sure what you mean by "true ground". The ground on the 1/8" is just as "true" as the XLR one. What the 1/8" jack is missing is the noise cancellation properties of a balanced signal. I'm also not sure what you mean by "heat".

I thought the XL2 DID have XLR?
Btw, I have an XL1s and I use a Beachteck adapter.

Yep, and mine still DOES :)

I'm confused now. I don't own an XL2, but for "Microphone Terminal" in the XL2 specs on Canon's site, it says "3.5mm stereo mini-jack unbalanced -55 dBv (Auto), -67 dBv (Manual/Vol Max)/600 ohms."

Yes, there are 4 mic connections altogether.. The 'front mic' uses a 2.5 and 3.5 mm jack for its connector. It's a stereo mic, and I guess the connectors work like a polarized AC plug. It can only go in one way because of the 2 sizes of connectors.

On the back end of the camera, at the base of it, there is a pair of XLR mic level (not line level) input jacks..

The XL2 can record all 4 inputs simultaneously. One of the few cameras that can, to 4 separate tracks. It does this at 12 bit/32kHz though, vs the higher quality 16 bit/48kHz of standard recordings.

You can also use an adapter from Canon on the front mic jack to connect 2 more XLR mics. So theoretically you could record 4 professional XLR mics into 4 separate tracks without needing a separate mixer for level control. There are meters on the LCD display on the left side of the camera body, as well as in the viewfinder, and they can also be output via the tv output jacks (composite RCA, BNC and S-Video).

So the answer is both.. It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping! ;)

I'm not sure what you mean by "true ground". The ground on the 1/8" is just as "true" as the XLR one. What the 1/8" jack is missing is the noise cancellation properties of a balanced signal. I'm also not sure what you mean by "heat".[/QUOTE]


sorry Brett, those are ol skool terms. I was referring to true ground as having the 3 pins, all metal. 1/8 or 1/4 jacks have that plastic or sealent around the ring that tend to burn up. cracking and then allowing the jack to move. if the metal touches another metal, then you get degradation in your sound. sound is an energy, heat, so the louder the gain the more heat. some manufacturers sealent or plastic rings can be sub standard, causing them to seperate thus giving off burn loss, which is a decline in decibals(.5) its an ol tale that can be disputed, however, in the 80's feild recording was also monitored through spectral analyzers which showed the level loss or difference in the wave. I know this is not much of a problems nowadays with digital and all, but when i see a input with minijacks it makes me cringe. 1/4 although bigger still gives me no more comfort. I have an audio digital recorder with xlr inputs that i use to capture the entire project on site so I can mix it seperatley. I did chooes to buy the xl1s could find a decent dv300u. also, whats a good dum hr ratio? im clueless!

Sam,
I've owned a Canon GL1 and a Canon XL2. The XL2 is a fantastic camera and has everything you want. You can get a clean used XL2 on this forum for around $2300 (maybe less). I sold mine 3 months ago for $2400.
I now shoot with a Canon XLH1, a Sony FX1 and a Canon HV10. I HIGHLY reccomend the FX1. The image is beautifull, it's real 16:9 (or 4:3), and you can shoot in standard or HD. The 24 and 30 frame rates are questionable,but some people use them. I shoot in 60i and de interlace if I need to. You can probably get a clean used FX1 for $2200. You'd also need a beachtek box that's another $160 or so.
I'd try to put together a few more bucks and gret yourself a camera like the XL2 or FX1.
Good luck
Bruce Yarock
www.yarock.com

Btw, I'm originaly from Waterbury. i worked near Seasid Park a coulple of summers installing school furniture at the university of Bridgeport (many years ago).
Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com

I just saw a PD170 on B&H's site, for $2000, with only 70 hours on the drum.

Ive got a friend who is selling his DVC 30 if you are interested in a semi used cam. it is in great shape.

Thanks.................email me at planetstudio@sbcglobal.net

Sam, being the sound guy you are, I knew you would probably jump all over that adapter issue....And for critical sound you are probably going to do separate recording anyway.... But the Beachtech has solve the problem for many without serious issues. And I wonder if the "pipeline" from the XLR inputs on an equiped camera is any better than that 8 inches on my adapter.... Assuming good contact with the plug, maybe not....