Is there anyway to let PP2.0 export Cineform HD, by somehow copying the system files from 1.51 into PP2.0.

I have copied the HDV folder in 1.51 to 2.0 and now Cineform HD shows up in 2.0 export but when you choose it to use it, it'll seem as if it's exporting the frames - but when you go to play the final file its 0kb and has no frames.

I believe that Cineform export capability was specifically precluded from 2.0. I'm guessing that behind the scenes there were "rights" issues between the Adobe and Cineform, and Adobe didn't want to pay for the capability in 2.0. Ultimately, the only way I can see to output Cineform in 2.0 is to buy Aspect.

You can still have 1.51 and 2.0 on the same system, so if that is what you want, to edit with, use 1.51. Cineform will tell you, however, that you are using an outdated codec and won't get best results currently available.

Vegas 6 and 7 do offer seem to off Cineform intermediate output, though it is not labeled that in the output put folders.

I suppose I could use 1.51 to export and convert Cineform, then edit in 2.0, when I'm done editing load in 1.51 for export. You think this method would cause any majour issues or screw up my edits?

Haven't tried it to any great extent, as I have primarily been editing in HDV native, since I upgraded to Pro 2.0. But for maximum edit control, it should work, assuming Pro 2.0 lets you out put it. But it will not allow you to export even that edited footage to Cineform intermediate, I think...

Chris, what do you reccommend the next best thing to the Cineform codec?

The free CineForm components within 1.5.1 are very old. The new components within Aspect HD 4.3 are higher quality and higher performance, you should test it out.

As David says, try the Aspect HD trial with Pro 2.0. Decide whether its worth it.

With Premiere Pro 2.0, I don't know of anything better. Next best thing I know of is simply editing in HDV. That has its risks and problems in the finished edit, and that is why Cineform was born. If this HDV is a living for you, you have to bite the bullet. For me, HDV is a hobby, so I live with less than best results...

I have tried the 15 day trial and it has now finished, I did like it alot, but dont know if I'm exactly ready to spend that kind of money. If you do buy it, does it come with updates? Are there any similiar competiting codecs that are similiar the Cineform that can encode and decode to HD .avi?

Julian:

That the issue, can I afford it...? I haven't followed the other encoders out there to any great extent.

Cineform does have HD Connect for about $199.00, which will work with other editors like Vegas. Aspect has a lot of addon features that plug into Premiere, that adds to its value. I do not know if you can use HD Connect which would have the updated codecs in Premiere. David ??

I tried Cineform and liked it a lot, - just didn't think I needed it $500 worth. I'm editing in PP2 in native HDV and frameserving with Debugmode to Tmpgenc 4 express. A couple of drawbacks (rolling titles for one) but I've found workarounds.

I figured I'd wait and see what Adobe unveils this summer before investing.

Brad - I've heard of frameserving twice now in PP2.0, how is this done exactly?

Brad - I've heard of frameserving twice now in PP2.0, how is this done exactly?

There are several ways. I chose Debugmode since it seems simplest. Avisynth is another method but a little less user friendly. There are a couple of others.

Debugmode is a free download. Install it and put the PP module in Premiere's plug-in folder and you're all set.

The Debugmode framserver appears as an option in the export menu in PP2. Choose that and create a "placeholder" file. Don't close PP2 or Debug, open the program you want to framserve to (in my case Tmpgenc) input the placeholder. It works as if you had created an avi and input that, - just a frame at a time.

Since I don't want to recompress or resize before I get to Tmpgenc, it saves making a massive intermediate file.

Brad,

I've tried out the DebugMode frameserving and it seems like the perfect fix untill I can afford moving to Cineform. A few questions, now when editing - After I have made edits (ie: transitions, colour corrections, blurs, etc.) before I can frame serve I'll need to render the file as like editing with DV AVI?

From my understanding though, I do lose quality with each render in Adobe on the timelime working in the native .mpeg capture, [someone confirm?] or do I only lose quality when I export with the Adobe Media Encoder?. If this is all correct it is my main want to move to Cineform primarily because it is apparently lossless with each export (and no need to render).

I never render in Premiere unless I absolutely need to preview in real time. As far as I know, Premiere doesn't use its rendered preview files for export anyway, so no matter how many times you render, it doesn't matter. It re-renders from the original footage for export and compresses as necessary. When you export a file, you generally compress and you lose some quality. Even though Cineform is very good you still lose, just not much.

The way to not lose quality is not to decompress/recompress many times. The problem is that exporting uncompressed from PP2 gives you a GIGANTIC file. That's why I frameserve. I resize and compress with Tmpgenc so some quality is lost there, as in any resizing and compressing. But, if I feed it directly from the timeline in Premiere, I only lose once not multiple times.

I'm led to believe there is a slight loss in color sampling due to frameserving expediency but I haven't noticed.

Everytime you compress/export you lose some quality no matter what the codec is. The idea is to do it as few times as possible. Rendering in Premiere without export doesn't count.

As far as I know, Premiere doesn't use its rendered preview files for export anyway, so no matter how many times you render, it doesn't matter. It re-renders from the original footage for export and compresses as necessary.

Can someone confirm this? Also, does this mean I can leave it unrendered on the timeline when I'm exporting via frame serve - Export or Adobe Media Encoder?

..., does this mean I can leave it unrendered on the timeline when I'm exporting via frame serve - Export or Adobe Media Encoder?

I leave the timeline unrendered. The only problem I've found so far is with rolling titles. For some reason static titles work fine, color correction works fine, dissolves work fine, but rolling titles I have to render, export as an uncompressed avi and replace in the timeline.

Rendering without export doesn't seem to help. Probably has something to do with Premiere not outputing the preview renders plus something else.

The frame serve method seems to be incompatible with the program Mpeg_Stream clip, which I use to convert my clips to .mov files and other formats. Too bad - guess I'll have to run the dummy file through vdub make a HuffyUV or compressed .avi file and convert to mjpb .mov from that file?

Brad / Julian

I've been playing with all the workarounds on the circuit for a couple of
months and considering the time factors involved / tests / drawbacks etc.
I decided to divide cineforms purchase price by 10 and allocate that spesific
ammount to my first ten customers for 2007. Apart from my normal production
rates they paid the additional fees "built into" the quote.

This capitalistic venture saved me a lot of time compared to all my previous
workarounds. The Cineform way enhanced my overall production workflow
to such an extent that the time factor if closely monitored, vs all my other
workarounds and quality requirements spiralled into a profitable
scenario.

After 17 years in the industry I'm tired of trying to keep up with the latest
techno from a financial viewpoint. I think it's time for the customers to pay
for our new transition to HD LAND.

Better rates for all !!!!!!

greetings / Herman / Cape-Town S-A.

Can someone confirm this? Also, does this mean I can leave it unrendered on the timeline when I'm exporting via frame serve - Export or Adobe Media Encoder?

For anything other than DV, Premiere does not use rendered files for export. I believe this has to do with the fact, that if you export to a non-native codec, it wants to re-render to get best quality possible.