Hi David,

Just playing with FX1 footage in AE 6.5 and having difficulty setting up the composition so that it will export properly back to PPro. Also what should the interpretation be for the footage items in AE.

David

Unfortunalety AE doesn't support the Sony HDV pixel ratio of 1.33:1 (in fact most tools don't support this -- it even takes some work to make PPro 1.5 get the pixel aspect correct.) The work around is to use and interpret the footage as 1440x1080 (upper field field) spare pixel 1.0. And do the same for the composition. Now every pixel will be presented and rendered correctly for importing back into Premiere, however the 16:9 image will be shown as 4:3 while working in AE. An AE workaround to preview in 16:9 is to nest the active composite into a new composition with square pixels at 1920x1080, with the transform->scale set to 133% by 100%. Now you can use the second composition to correctly preview the first. Render out from the first to get pixel accurate rendering for importing back into Premiere Pro (use the Video For Window rendering mode and select the CineForm HD Codec V1.x.)

Thanks, David.

...or simply have your footage transformed into 1920x1080 square pix in the first place.

Here's how (all-free solution, by the way):

1. Capture your video (live camera feed or from tape) via FX1's iLink (FireWire) into your PC using CapDVHS. CapDVHS is a free download, and it allows you to save either in Transport Stream m2t, or Program stream mpg. Choose Program Stream option. You will end up having your HDV footage as PS mpg files.

2. Import your mpg video into VDubMpegMod (that's VDub, modified for MPG work. Free download.) Choose HUFFYUV Compression (HUFFYUV is a lossless codec that allows you to save HDD space while preserving image quality. Free download.) Add Filter: Resize, 1920x1080, Bicubic, Interlaced. Save as AVI.

3. That's it! You got your 1920x1080 AVI that will work with both PremierePro and AfterEffects natively, and will display in correct ratio without interpreting. In PPro, set your project to 1920x1080. This is an actual workflow I use to online my edited HDV projects. (I actually edit offline - all the same as above, except my offline files are 720x405 HUFFYUV avi's. I then simply replace them with the full-res copies as above for final render, when edit is complete. This is the same workflow I use since JVC HD10 - with minor tweaks for FX1 now.)

Hope this helps.

Yes that will work, even when mixed with an Aspect HD workflow. The only downside is speed and the file size of HUFFYUV (which really forces your off-line workflow.)

I edit my movie in premire pro with aspect hd.When all the editing is done how are you exporting this movie into after effects?
Do you export it as a movie with the cineform codec so you get 1 big file or is there any other way ?
And when you finish editing in after effects and want to bring back the file into premiere what format you use again ???
Any help is appreciated .
Gabor

Premiere and After Effect have much better integration now, so you cut and paste better the two applications. You only need to move the sections that AE need to see. When done in AE export back out as CFHD (CineForm) via the Video for Window codec the comes with Aspect HD.

Thanks David for your reply...but when I try to export from After Effetcs at Video for Window NO CFHD codec shows up in the option list.

When you select "Video for Windows" and click on "Format Option" you should see "CineForm HD Codec V1.2" in the list. If you don't it wasn't installed for some reason. In that case go to "C:\Program Files\Common Files\CineForm" and right click on cfhd.inf and select install from the pop-up menu.

Thanks David for your continous help but it is still not ok...I installed the cfhd file again but still it doesn`t show up as an option in After Effects for exporting.In Premiere Pro is not a problem.When I finished editing I choose export as movie the CFHD was right there and save it as an avi file...import it to Effects was not a problem for this avi file but when I done doing my things in Effects I cannot export it out with CFHD.I click export video for windows and asking for video settings.The only options I have is Cinepak,DV PAL, None,DV/DVCPRO NTSC , DVCPRO PAL,INtel Indeo Video 4.4.

Please any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Gabor

just to confirm:

When you "Add to the Render Queue" then click on the preset next to "Output Module", probably defaults to "Lossless" (i.e. click on "Lossless".) The "Output Module Settings" window should allow you to select "Video for Windows" as the format then click on "Format Options". The popup should show a list like this
www.cineform.com/downloads/Codecs.png. I have added many other codecs over the years, but your list seems short. I need to confirm this is the panel you are looking at.

David,
thank you SO much...finally I checked this Render Queue and followed your instructions and CFHD was there ....This was not the panel I was looking at all !!
Once again thank you for your help
Regards
Gabor

Brent Marks,

i too experienced the same issues you do with the cineform plug. i tried to leave a ticket and they had no resolve for me. as it stands cineform and premiere pro 1.5.1 update are way below par and David is on theses boards trying to defend his product so a negative buzz does not float around. i am very displeased with cineform and displeased with ppro's solution but expect adobe to have a solid solution in prpo v2.0. as for now you should give EDIUS a try very good native HDV edit and capture.

my specs
p4 3.2 ghz
1 gig ram
700 gigs @ 8mb to 16mb buffers
ati 9600 256mb

joel

Joel Corral,

I am the CineForm support manager. I have checked our database today for your ticket.

There are no registered users named Joel Corral who have ever submitted trouble tickets. Furthermore there are no emails recieved by the support@cineform.com account any time in the last month with any kinds of identifiers that they might be you.

Do you have a ticket number you can refer me to? If so, please email the ticket reference to me at support@cineform.com and put it to my attention. I would like to get this resolved as I am clearly disturbed by the claims you've made above. You should definately not be having capture problems on a system with those specs unless the RAM speed is way under spec.

Thad H.
CineForm Support

sure do and i didn't use my real name,

Ticket Summary
Ticket #: 611-818134
Status: Resolved
Date Created: 3/13/2005 7:47 PM PDT
Date Updated: 3/15/2005 1:48 PM PDT


Ticket Description
Problem Type: Performance
OS: XP Professional
CPU: Intel Pentium 4
CPU Speed: > 3GHz
CPU Configuration: Single
Main Memory: Dual-Channel DDR SDRAM
Memory Amount: >=1024MB
Video Drive: Dedicated single video drive
System Usage: Dedicated Video Capture/Edit Workstation
Camera/Deck Model #: Sony HDR-FX1
Motherboard Manufacturer: gigabyte
Motherboard Model #: ???
Graphics Card Model #: Ati 9600pro
Product Name: Aspect HD
Version #: 3.0 DEmo
NLE Version: Premiere Pro 1.5
Serial Number: demo 3.0
Description of Problem: ok I will try to explain my problem as well as i can:

I am trying to import AVI that i DOWNCONVERTED to SD from my HDR-FX1 NOT USING THE CINEFORM CODEC. Rather using the premiere pro default DV (NTSC) codec.

But when i try to import those same avi files into after effects 6.5 pro in the "IMPORT FILE" window under Format: reads CineForm AVI. and apparently After effects does not recognize the file at all! Under the Import As: drop down menu there is nothing to choose!!! What have you DONE! i have evaluated 2.5 and now have 3.0 evaluation. And so far am very displeased. Is there a fix or a work around for this? is anyone else tried to import avi files downconerted to SD from the HDR-FX1? Is cineform even aware of this potential conflict?

Please HELP!!!

J

Precise Steps to Reproduce: ok I will try to explain my problem as well as i can:

I am trying to import AVI that i DOWNCONVERTED to SD from my HDR-FX1 NOT USING THE CINEFORM CODEC. Rather using the premiere pro default DV (NTSC) codec.

But when i try to import those same avi files into after effects 6.5 pro in the "IMPORT FILE" window under Format: reads CineForm AVI. and apparently After effects does not recognize the file at all! Under the Import As: drop down menu there is nothing to choose!!! What have you DONE! i have evaluated 2.5 and now have 3.0 evaluation. And so far am very displeased. Is there a fix or a work around for this? is anyone else tried to import avi files downconerted to SD from the HDR-FX1? Is cineform even aware of this potential conflict?

Please HELP!!!

J

Attachment: None


Solution
Solved:
(3/15/2005 1:48 PM PDT) Your downconverting workflow problem is outside the scope of CineForm's Support.


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History
Action Date Action CSR /Customer Comments
3/15/2005 1:48 PM PDT Solved Thad Huston (See solution)
3/15/2005 1:04 PM PDT Reopened ff ff my ticket was resolved but how do i read or where do i find the resolution for the problem?



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is my ticket case, my problem was the issue of the Cineform Codec conflict in after effects. when i tried to import any .avi files after effects will not import any .avi files even .avi's that i captured with out the Cineform codec. the codec changes all avi's to cineform codec (at least after effects sees it that way) try it yourself and see. capture from the hdr-fx1 and downconvert on the fly. using the DV (NTSC) codec. then open after effects and create a new project and try to import the file you just captured. see for your self. i won't work i had to uninstall cineform for after effects to import avi's properly.

How is everyone dealing with AE? Are you importing into a 1920 x 1080 comp, stretching, then stretching back to 1440 x 1080 for render? (To see proper aspect during AE work)

Or are most people just working at 1440 x 1080 in a 4:3 format until output ? (Looking at the wrong output aspect while compositing)

It is easier for me to use 1920 and then squish it back down.

I've found strange behaviour after I installed Cineform 3.0 (demo).I've tried to import a 1440x1080 50i (captured from my Z1 with HDLink) clip to After Effects 6.5.1 Professional but I've got just green solid instead of video picture. Then I realised I cannot import even common DV files either because it pretend to be encoded by cineform codec too and it shows just some digital noise. But it is not the strangest thing. I've looked at properties (summary) tab of various AVI files on my system and found out that almost every single clip shows strange HDYC compression instead of its native format (eg Microsoft DV). But when I uninstall Cineform 3.0 import to AE is possible and this behavior disappears. Does anybody noticed this? What can I do with it?

Thanks for advice... (And sorry for bad english)

PS: I tried it on several systems with the same result. And notice: With Cineform installed AE says the clip is just Cineform Codec, with Cineform uninstalled it says Cineform HD Codec V1.2

I just changed the initialization profile in After Effects to include a 1.33 pixel aspect ratio, and make native 1440x1080 compositions. Supposedly Aspect HD introduces this automatically, but it can be done by going into the

After Effects 6.0/Support Files/intepretation rules.txt

file, taking the bottom line:
# 0, 0, 0, "0000", * = 10/11/"Custom Aspect", *, *, *

and changing it to:
0, 0, 0, "0000", * = 4/3/"Custom Aspect", *, *, *

Ta da!

Doh!

I followed directions to do that in Photoshop, and completely spaced on the idea of doing it in After Effects.

Thank you so much for the info. Brilliant!

This unfortunately is an After Effects bug / limitation. CineForm adds special features to the AVI importer/exporter, however we don't support all AVI compression types. We do the same thing in Premiere, and Premiere will use the CineForm importer for our AVIs and their own importer for other AVIs (this is how it should work.) After Effects doesn't do this correctly. The AE engineers didn't imagine AVI could enhanced, and never plans for supporting multiple importers.

Fortunately there is a workaround for DV users (the main format that doesn't work.) The CineForm plugin for AE is optional in Aspect HD (it isn't in Prospect HD.) Simply delete the CFHDIO.aex file from the AE plugins directly and After Effect will handle DV correctly again. To work around the 1.33:1 pixel ratio (that the CineForm module fixed) you can do what Steven suggests in this post (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43362.)

Yes, thanks, it seems it could work. But my answer is why is impossible to work even with your AVIs in AE after propper installation (if you already know about what I wrote above) and why almost all AVIs in system shows false codec info after installing cineform (I mean XP system info not the AE one). I've just purchased a copy (it's on its way to me), because I believe it's a realy best way to edit HDV format and I know you've done a great work. But do not tell me that this is JUST AE bug... It's doing a realy wierd things...

You are correct, I missed that part of your question. It should work fine with CineForm clips in AE (it does here.) If that is not working there with the purchase version, there is an install issue that support would know the answer better than I. We will be to the bottom of this problem.

Thanks for quick statement. I'll try the purchased version right when it'll come to me (I hope within the week), but I still not sure if it's solve this wierdness. I tried your advice (5 minutes ago) and it realy works fine. I do not understant why there is AE plugin at all. And the aspect ratio: I can resize the picture by size feature right in the composition as well as the AE interpreting footage feature does. Or am I wrong? Is there a difference?

The plugin does automatically convert the 1.33:1 pixel to a square pixel 1920x1080, this is just a convience feature. The plug-in also gives you quality controls on the output -- this is its primary advantage.

The plugin does automatically convert the 1.33:1 pixel to a square pixel 1920x1080

This confused me. Here's what I'm hoping this means:

1. I shoot HDV 1080i on an FX1

2. I capture with Aspect HD - this captures the 1440x1080i 4:2:0 15-GOP MPEG-2 transport stream, and converts it to a 1440x1080i 4:2:2 (8-bit) 2-GOP Cineform wavelet compressed file.

3. I import this file into After Effects and create a 1440x1080i composition with a 1.33 pixel aspect ratio. (option included via Aspect plugin, or if necessary, hacking the interpretation rules.txt file).

4. I plunk in the CF file and do my typical After Effects magic - and in the end have a 1440x1080i project with a 1.33 aspect ratio, that I can stretch as I see fit on export.

Is that right? Or is there really a conversion to a square pixel project somewhere in the process? I would really want to avoid all scaling till the final render.

-Steve

I do not understand term "quality controls on the output"
I thought, After Effects handles all clips as RGB and within this color space all modifications are done. It doesn't matter what format is on input. I just realised that after deleting the CFHD plugin and after tweak the interpreting rules.txt (# CineForm HDV Codec 1440 x 1080 is 1.333 aspect ratio, upper-field first 1440, 1080, 25, ".AVI", "CFHD" = 4/3, U, *, *) I can work in literaly pure 1920x1080 square pix composition and do a pure 1920x1080p uncompressed output (for HDCAM mastering or film recording). But I still do not see the difference when I do it this way or simple do a unconstrained resize raw, 1:1 pixel aspect Cineform AVI imported to AE. Is this true? What I want is uncompressed 1920x1080 file on output (do no matter if its AVI or bitmap sequence) which is material for next processing.
Waht is elusive that AE probably cannot interpret HDV fields properly. In some complex motion areas I could find big stripes (comb) artefacts and there is no way to remove them unless I use Magic Bullet plugin. Neither AE interpreting nor Fields Kit help. And this is really time consuming...

Steve, Yes you are correct.

Jaromir, "quality controls on the output" just mean when using CFHD as an output format you can set the output quality and video format (overriding the default -- although the defaults work fine.) Sounds like you have a good mastery of AE (better than I do), I'm not sure why you are having interlacing issues.

Dear David,
interlacing issue in AE is really strange. It's not easy to unveil, because it's being visble only within some kind of movement and there is a trained eye necessary. But it really IS there (Of course I'm talking about situation when I need to deinterlace this footage - by AE interpreting feature or other techniques - only Magic Bullet works fine - when I leave footage as it is - mean WITH fields, I really get clear interlaced picture...). I think it should be partly AE limitation, because AE is probably not ready yet for this kind of footage (mean 1140x1080i 1.33 par), but it might be a Cineform bug as well (I do not know how your avi is defined and how it is treated by various applications and why). When I import uncompressed 1080i footage from another source (say HDCAM) everything is just fine. The issue is the same with or without your .aex plugin. I'll be really happy if you could talk about it with your specialists, please...

Try this:
http://www.intimate.cz/files/hdv/interlaced.jpg
and this
http://www.intimate.cz/files/hdv/deinterlaced.jpg

It's a crop of 100% HDV composition, it's really weird...

And my second question is:
I've just received a copy of Aspect HD. I'd like to install it instantly but I've realised that activation is hardware dependant. So I'll wait, I'll have a brand new machine within a week and I'm affraid if it'll be possible to activate it again. I really don't want to run Aspect on several systems but I'm curious if there is a chance to trasfer licence from system to system. And it'll probably not be so uncommon need in our posthouse, cause we are still finding a place for efficient HDV workflow.
Thanks

If you email me a frame (please compress) or make a 2 frames CFHD AVI and email that to me (first initial last name @ cineform.com.) I can check into the interlacing.

Aspect HD can be installed on anything for 15-days without requiring activation, so I can simply put it on your old PC into your new one arrives. Plus if you do active on a PC then later wish to move that activation we do have a de-activation proceduce (email support@cineform.com) that allows you to move licenses as needed.

David, I've added a link to my previous post...

Funny I have just been looking into this very issue (on Friday.) This is not an interlacing artifact, but a 4:2:0 artifact from the default MPEG decoder, not a fault in the CineForm compression. It is only the chroma that is in error. I'm looking into the fix for the MPEG decoder. In the meantime there is a workaround (unfornately it does mean re-converting you clips using HDLink.) Before using HDLink open regedit and search on "UseMpeg" (it appears twice in CineForm registry entries.) It defaults to 0, change this to 1. This switches decoding from the shipped MPEG components (faster) to the Adobe licensed MPEG tools (little slower.) This will fix it.

Oh, great, it really works. Thank you very much, David. I have to say I've never had so brilliant support as you did now, even in this independent forum (and a 11 hours gap that dividing us). I'll just pray all these workarounds will be noticed when you'll do a next release of Aspect HD (and I hope it'll be soon). But in any case, I'm sure, you're doing a great job...

PS: You're happy, guys, living in US (if I forget your NTSC/29.97/30/60/24/23.96 and so on "joy"). Here, in central Europe, is everything ten times more complicated...

Funny I have just been looking into this very issue (on Friday.) This is not an interlacing artifact, but a 4:2:0 artifact from the default MPEG decoder

David, I only record on FX1 using Cineframe 30 mode, which is effectively a good in-cam deinterlacer. Thus I consider the output to be 30p.

I then capture the footage from tape using CapDVHS.

Next step is conversion into AHD using HDLink.

Questions:

1. Given that my HDLink settings are always Medium Quality, Progressive: do I still have to employ your workaround by regedit?

2. I only found ONE UseMpeg entry in my registry, not two as you stated.

Alex, ad 2) That one you've found is good enough...

Thank you for that tip Steven, I have been looking for a way to do this for a while now. Some pretty smart AE folks(which I am not one) couldn't figure a workaround for the 1.33 par.Thank you again.

Alex, This is only going to be an issue if you post de-interlace, so you don't need to change anything for your current workflow. The UseMpeg registry entry only in one place for recent installs (for older versions it was is two locations.)

Jaromir, Thanks for your comments.

OK, thanks. I still have changed the value from 0 to 1, in case if I have to deal with some 30i footage ingestion in the future.

I hope that this change is not going to screw things up for my current "progressive" workflow...

I have tried Stevens tip and have changed the values and now(as of yesterday) have Aspect on the machine. Using Canopus HQ and Steven's method it displays fine(with toggle PAR) but for some reason in a custom 1440X1080 par 1.33 project Aspect displays like this http://www.rdonato.com/aspect.jpg. The captured footage is 1440x1080 and was captured in Ppro 1.51 before I got the full version...shouldn't matter I don't think.I am wondering what exacly does the install do if anything to AE? On analog out to monitor it looks fine but the preview is off as you can see. If I do interpret footage(AE sees it as square pixels) and select 1.33 it is fine...but with the HQ footage it sees it as 1.33 and I don't have to do anything.

Try importing the clip, and drop it on the icon to create a new project with it.

It fixed itself! I changed the interpretation rules as per Steven and it worked fine with canopus HQ but didn't see the cineform unless you did interpret footage. I don't know if activation or the update to 3.1 did it but the custon 1.33 PAR I made was blown out and a Cineform 1.33 replaced it....now both canopus hq and Cineform work fine.Here is what the Aspect install did to the rules



# only adds a custom pixel aspect ratio to the popup in the Comp Settings & Interpret Footage
# dialog boxes -- uncomment the next line to try it out
0, 0, 0, "0000", * = 4/3/"Custom Aspect", *, *, *

# CineForm AVIs with HD2 HDV Clips (1440x1080) *** please keep this line ***
1440, 1080, *, ".AVI", "CFHD" = 1920/1440/"CineForm HDV 1080i", U, *, *
1440, 1080, 24, ".AVI", "CFHD" = 1920/1440/"CineForm HDV 1080p", F, *, *
1440, 1080, 23.98, ".AVI", "CFHD" = 1920/1440/"CineForm HDV 1080p", F, *, *

Cool. I will download the upgrade this weekend. I still need to figure out if I want to shoot Cineframe 30 or not when I go on vacation next week.

Hmm, I have 3.1 now and my After Effects comp window looks squished.
Workflow:
Improrted Premiere Pro 1.5 project that had Cineform project settings applied for 1080i 30i FX1 footage. (looks fine in Premiere)
After Effects imported the sequence as:
Custom
W 1440
Lock aspect Ratio to 4:3 CHECKED
H 1080

PAR Cineform HDV 1080i (1.33)
Frame Rate: 29.97

I tried unchecking the 4:3 aspect ration but nothing changed.

For the footage, the interpret footage window reads:
Upper Field First
PAR CineForm HDV 1080i (1.33)


Any ideas? Will it output correctly so I can continue to edit it in Premiere Pro?

Jeff,

You probably need click on the "Toggle Aspect Ratio Correction" button on the AE composition window. It is the white square that is near the bottom right hand size on the windows controls.

Not quite the right thread. Sorry.

Hi David,

I just upgraded to Adobe Production Studio Premium. I had some Open GL issues with After Effects 7.0 and had to uninstall and re-install it. The Open GL problem is now fixed, but I have a new problem. Now, I do not get the Cineform importer prompt when opening the application. I've tried to unistall and reinstall Prospect (build 66), but I'm not getting the prompt anymore and it's telling me that my files are from an 8-Bit source.

Can you please tell me how I can reset my preferences to get the prompt back in After Effects? (so that I can import my 10-Bit Prospect files)

Also, I wanted to ask you if importing and coverting HDV footage to the "Higher" setting will add any quality to the post production on my film, or if it is just overkill for converted HDV (from a JVC-HD100).

Thanks,

Geoff Murillo

To restore the AE importer defaults (assuming it usen't uninstalled with your OpenGL issues), hold down Ctrl-Shift during AE's startup.

"coverting HDV footage to the "Higher" setting" could mean many things. I would advice you selecting upconvert 8-bit to 10-bit, and using High or FilmScan1 for any film project.

I use PPro 1.5.1 with Aspect HD (3.x?) and AE 7 Pro.

For simplicity, I try to use PPRo as much as I can for everything, including effects and some Color Correction.

But since the HDV source video usually has ugly macroblocks, CC in PPro can be unacceptable.

In these situations, I do the following:

- Export from PPro as 10-bit uncompressed (Blackmagic mov)

- Import that into AE, making sure the project is 16-bit

- Apply Color Correction. (My theory is that since the source is 10-bit now, and project settings are even higher, then rounding errors should be diminished comparing to those in PPRo's 8-bit-only environment. Indeed, visual difference is hugely towards AE.)

- Export the result as Cineform AHD

- Import that CC'd footage back into PPRo timeline for real-time edit.

I try doing this only to short clips since AE renders take forever.

Is this the best workflow between PPro + AHD and AE?

But since the HDV source video usually has ugly macroblocks, CC in PPro can be unacceptable.

Rather than CC the HDV, have you tried converting the HDV to HD CFHD and then CC that?

Also, regarding the best workflow, have you tried DL, or is an upgrade out of the question?

Best,
Christopher

Dear Mr. Newman,

I bought my copy of Aspect HD 4.23two months ago. Cineform is an amazing product, it has helped me finish my production in less time and with more quality. The only question I have is regarding the cineform codec and After effects, I cannot render my compositions directly to your codec, I get an error message each time I try it.