This issue will only occur with an image containing enough detail of course. I believe it's been known to occur in the SD world by using HD glass on a SD camera.
A new firmware load enable the FireWire output from my HD cable box. I can record to D-VHS both 1080i and 720p programming. (No copy protect is on all 16 HD channels!)

And now I can switch my HDTV between the Cable box and D-VHS deck. Both feed analog component. The cable box is obviously softer. The detail from the DVHS VTR is amazingly high -- too high -- and looks like Piotr's S=8 but without the twitter.

So Piotr's questions about METHOD may be unnecessary. It's clear the same TYPE can be very different depending on the analog output (and input) circuits. Even when HDMI is used, unless the HDTV is ALL digital, there is a D/A and low-pass filter on its output.

OK
but just to be really clear. If you're feeding that monitor by DVI from a PC that's very different to feeding it via HDMI or component.
What happens if you print that test image to tape and feed the camera to the monitor via HDMI or component playing it back?

See when a monitor is connected via DVI from a PC it's refresh rate, de-interlacing etc is being controlled by the PC. My Dell 2407 is a good example, it displays the 25PsF perfectly via DVI from a PC out of Vegas, feed it component from the camera and yuck.

What you've seen using VLC ties in exactly with this, VLC lets you emulate what HDTVs are doing, mostly wrongly too.


For now, I have created (in Vegas) a 1080/25p MPEG-2 clip out of your chart and played it back with VLC. As long as interlacing is off, it plays perfectly (of course the lines are not as clearly separate as with a still picture, yet distinguishable). But with bobbing on, the flickering is so awful my eyes can hardly watch it for more than a couple of seconds!

Bob, what's the point of printing it back to tape - I can only do it as 1080/50i anyway? Or am I missing something?

UPDATE: I have rendered another clip in Vegas, this time using the minimum possible Gaussian Blur in vertical direction; while the flickering is easier to watch, the lines are no longer distinguishable. No big surprize!

I would once again like to express my gratitude to Steve and Bob (first of all - there were others whose input I should also have mentioned), who - I think I can say it safely now - have helped us all establish the V1E/P cameras are not guilty of the "flaws" with their 25PfS video presentation. If I can recreate this flaw with a 1080-lines chart, it's clearly a display device problem (or more specifically: the way a display device is treating the 25PfS signal). The only thing that beats me is how Sony could have released a camera that uses a format which, for the sake of all interlaced playback equipment backward compatibility, is actually not compatible with most up-to-date HD viewing devices. And even worse, instead of informing the community about this fact, they advise to simply turn the sharpness down to 3. Dear Sony, this is not a professional attitude! Turning down sharpness is against the very idea of HD video, and it doesn't solve the problem - a slight line twitter is still visible.

For now, I have created a 1080/25p MPEG-2 clip out of it and played it back with VLC. As long as interlacing is off, it plays perfectly (of course the lines are not as clearly separate as with a still picture). But with bobbing on, the flickering is so awful my eyes can hardly watch it for more that a couple of seconds!

Bob, what's the point of printing it back to tape - I can only do it as 1080/50i anyway? Or am I missing something?


Sorry, should have included a warning about staring at it for too long :)

Open a 1080 50i HDV project, drop image onto T/L and stretch it out a long as you need it for. Render to m2t file and PTT.

The Sony Vegas guys have told me that what will come out the HDMI and component ports of the camera will be identical to what you get for PsF. The V1 is only capable of outputing fields on both those ports.

That test image was created in Vegas BTW.

The point of it, perhaps none.
When you say you played the clip back in VLC, how is the monitor connected?

DVI, Component or HDMI?

What I'm getting at is the monitor may well react differently when it's fed via those 3 different paths. DVI is a pure digital connection, the screen refresh is set by the PC and pixels are mapped one to one, Component is analogue video and HDMI is digital video. By my understanding with the last two the monitor has to process the signal to display it.

I suspect what you're seeing with VLC is pretty much what you'll see going to the monitor via HDMI or component from tape, the monitor is bobbing the image creating the flicker.

Bob, my ATI graphics card / Fujitsu-Siemens monitor combo enable me to playback (with VLC, from an NLE, or any software that uses video overlay in general) with *BOTH* the digital DVI and/or the analogue Component. There is no much difference between them, apart from the fact that the component HDTV output from the graphics card is more dynamic ("punchy") than the DVI (but of course they can be tuned to match in the ATI Catalyst control center).

So, when I say it's OK with deinterlaing off and awful with bobbing on, I mean both interfaces - the DVI and component.

UPDATE: After a second thought, I must add that the above is a bit more complicated, actually. The thing I'm sort of uneasy about is: why do I need to enforce bobbing in VLC to recreate the twitter even through component, which itself should be doing to the captured 25PsF clip exactly the same it's doing to the live V1E output when fed through it? It beats me...

Bob, my ATI graphics card / Fujitsu-Siemens monitor combo enable me to playback (with VLC, from an NLE, or any software that uses video overlay in general) with *BOTH* the digital DVI and/or the analogue Component. There is no much difference between them, apart from the fact that the component HDTV output from the graphics card is more dynamic ("punchy") than the DVI (but of course they can be tuned to match in the ATI Catalyst control center).

So, when I say it's OK with deinterlaing off and awful with bobbing on, I mean both interfaces - the DVI and component.

UPDATE: After a second thought, I must add that the above is a bit more complicated, actually. The thing I'm sort of uneasy about is: why do I need to enforce bobbing in VLC to recreate the twitter even through component, which itself should be doing to the captured 25PsF clip exactly the same it's doing to the live V1E output when fed through it? It beats me...

Piotr,
first off, thanks so much for all your hard work on this.

I don't really have an answer as to why you have to use Bob on the component outputs to recreate the problem, could it be that without it the video card is sending frames?
As far as I know that cannot be done, a component connection only supports fields but I'm far from well educated on what component connections are capable of. However if that were the case it would explain a lot given that the camera itself can only output fields.

By the way, have you tried using the Median filter instead of GB in Vegas?

By the way, have you tried using the Median filter instead of GB in Vegas?

Yes Bob I have - it offers finer control indeed, similar to the Gaussian Blur in Premiere, thanks for that hint!

I think I can say it safely now -- have helped us all establish the V1E/P cameras are not guilty of the "flaws" with their 25PfS video presentation. If I can recreate this flaw with a 1080-lines chart, it's clearly a display device problem (or more specifically: the way a display device is treating the 25PfS signal).
You are saying the line-twitter only appears when 25p is displayed and is not "in" the recorded video from a V1E. Correct?

Which means it should also be seen when 30p is displayed. But I've not seen it and there have been no reports of it from V1Us. Which means it can't be the PsF system.

Moreover, the video you sent me had more than twitter -- it had dancing dot aliasing noise on fine details. I don't have anywhere near this level of aliasing at 30p.

All this tells me there is must be something unique to the V1E.

My theory of aliasing from the A/Ds is wrong -- thank you Bob. But, I remain convinced that something to do with greater V rez in the E/P units is correct. And, I'm equally convinced it has to do with the need for E/P units to record 576-line rather than 480-line SD video. Because the SD signal is derived from the HD signal, it seems logical that the E/P units "have" greater HD V rez -- before the video is encoded and recorded.

Why? I'm not sure without understanding the insides of the V1 we'll ever know.

You are saying the line-twitter only appears when 25p is displayed and is not "in" the recorded video from a V1E. Correct?

Which means it should also be seen when 30p is displayed. But I've not seen it and there have been no reports of it from V1Us. Which means it can't be the PsF system.

Moreover, the video you sent me had more than twitter -- it had dancing dot aliasing noise on fine details. I don't have anywhere near this level of aliasing at 30p.

All this tells me there is must be something unique to the V1E.

My theory of aliasing from the A/Ds is wrong -- thank you Bob. But, I remain convinced that something to do with greater V rez in the E/P units is correct. And, I'm equally convinced it has to do with the need for E/P units to record 576-line rather than 480-line SD video. Because the SD signal is derived from the HD signal, it seems logical that the E/P units "have" greater HD V rez -- before the video is encoded and recorded.

Why? I'm not sure without understanding the insides of the V1 we'll ever know.

Steve, I tend to agree that the R50 V1 differs from the R60 model - your explanation of this difference may be accurate. I believe it is a quantitative rather than qualitative difference. I saw similar aliasing and mosquito noise in the 30p clips. I didn't see line twitter - but of course all 24p or 30p clips I ever saw were downloaded from the net and played back from the computer, and my own clips watched this way do not flicker, either.

Out of the methods of post-processing the 25PsF materials tried so far (selective Gaussian Blur in vertical direction in Vegas and Premiere, antialiasing filters etc) I found the v=2.5% GB in Premiere was most effective (99% of line twitter removed while the V-rez reduced only slightly and the H-rez untouched). I have tested even more solutions and now think an even better one is the Canopus Flicker Reduce filter; I'm uploading my "garage" clip with sharpness 7, encoded in Edius with this filter.

I will add the link to this clips in a while; please compare it with your results from FCP and share your opinion.

UPDATE: Here is the link to the abovementioned clip:
http://rapidshare.com/files/20590009/s7_canopus_flicker_reduce.m2t

Steve and Bob:
It's very important that you check it, as the Canopus Edius Anti Flicker filter effectiveness on eliminating twitter and flicker from the 25PsF video is astonishing! In fact, I have added it to my clip with Bob's 1080 lines chart - the result is an absolutely clean video, even with bobbing enabled in VLC! I wish I knew how this filter differs from all I tried previosuly in how it actually is doing the magic.

You are saying the line-twitter only appears when 25p is displayed and is not "in" the recorded video from a V1E. Correct?

Which means it should also be seen when 30p is displayed. But I've not seen it and there have been no reports of it from V1Us. Which means it can't be the PsF system.

Moreover, the video you sent me had more than twitter -- it had dancing dot aliasing noise on fine details. I don't have anywhere near this level of aliasing at 30p.

All this tells me there is must be something unique to the V1E.

My theory of aliasing from the A/Ds is wrong -- thank you Bob. But, I remain convinced that something to do with greater V rez in the E/P units is correct. And, I'm equally convinced it has to do with the need for E/P units to record 576-line rather than 480-line SD video. Because the SD signal is derived from the HD signal, it seems logical that the E/P units "have" greater HD V rez -- before the video is encoded and recorded.

Why? I'm not sure without understanding the insides of the V1 we'll ever know.


Are you certain the dancing dots are aliasing?
The amount of them is very dependant on light levels and they taper off away from the edges. This looks to me like what's left after the level sensitive DNR that Sony have said they're using.
What also makes me doubt it's aliasing is it's apparent on both vertical and horizontal edges. What confuses me though is they're quite different in nature to typical chroma noise, they're bigger than one pixel and they're only black.
I've had to push the camera hard to make them really noticeable though.

Steve, I tend to agree that the R50 V1 differs from the R60 model -- your explanation of this difference may be accurate. I believe it is a quantitative rather than qualitative difference. I saw similar aliasing and mosquito noise in the 30p clips. I didn't see line twitter --
1) The fact that your twitter is so bad and I don't have any -- tells me there is a real difference between units. It is only quantitative.

2) Now about making HD DVDs. I tried creating a real 24p file. The burning application would not accept the fame-rate. So, the only thing I can burn is 24p with 2-3 pulldown added!

3) Which raises the question, given how difficult it is to remove 2-3 pulldown from source video using FCP, is it worth the trouble just to have a 24p timeline?

A) One is supposed to not cut-to a judder frame. OK -- what happens if one does? (You can learn to spot the judder frames in the timeline so one can avoid them -- if it's really important.)

B) What happens when you edit and break the 2-3 cadence at each edit point? Since the cadence in the output file will not a perfect cadence -- your HDTV's deinterlacer will not be able to follow it. Which means 24p will be deinterlaced incorrectly. Does this matter? Does it matter when 80% of HDTVs can't correctly sense the 2-3 cadence even on a test signal?

I'm wondering if it's worth all these issues just to get 24fps motion judder. It's not like anything you shoot is going to fool anyone into thinking your video is film. And, it's not like very many people shooting with a $4K camcorder are going to transfer to film.

Are you certain the dancing dots are aliasing?
The amount of them is very dependant on light levels and they taper off away from the edges. This looks to me like what's left after the level sensitive DNR that Sony have said they're using.
What also makes me doubt it's aliasing is it's apparent on both vertical and horizontal edges. What confuses me though is they're quite different in nature to typical chroma noise, they're bigger than one pixel and they're only black.
I've had to push the camera hard to make them really noticeable though.

I think the dancing dots, marching ants or mosquito noise (whatever you call it) is indeed aliasing. I'm encouraging you again to download the s=7 clip I encoded with Edius aniflicker filter; not only is the twitter gone but even with bobbing imposed and through component, the noise around the garage roof bottom edge and on the trunk is almost gone!

1)
I'm wondering if it's worth all these issues just to get 24fps motion judder. It's not like anything you shoot is going to fool anyone into thinking your video is film. And, it's not like very many people shooting with a $4K camcorder are going to transfer to film.

Around 20% of the films submitted to Sundance this year were shot on DVX100 or similar camcorders and 24p. Virtually all of the SlamDance entries, and same for the XDance entries were shot with sub 10K camcorders shooting 24p or resampled to 24p. There were several entries I viewed that were shot on the Canon XLH1.

I'm not a big fan of 24p for most things, but there is no denying the elephant in the room. Marcus van Bavel or one of the other transfer houses such as DFL could likely provide an extremely accurate number of how many sub 10K camcorders are used in the digital media submitted to their transfer houses.
There is at least enough work to keep them in business.

Here's a link to a test clip I shot a few weeks ago:

http://www.yousendit.com/download/T2dkeFVSZ1A1bmcwTVE9PQ

I think it pretty clearly shows what I've been talking about regarding noise.
Sorry it's a big file (147MB) and pretty boring stuff so only download it if you've got bandwidth to spare.
This is deliberately badly shot to try to 'provoke' the camera.
Make of it what you will.
And sorry it's on Yousendit who require you to sign up to download.

I think the dancing dots, marching ants or mosquito noise (whatever you call it) is indeed aliasing. I'm encouraging you again to download the s=7 clip I encoded with Edius aniflicker filter; not only is the twitter gone but even with bobbing imposed and through component, the noise around the garage roof bottom edge and on the trunk is almost gone!


I've downloaded it and yes it looks very clean. I don't have a HD monitor here capable of displaying interlace but all VLC modes show it cleanly.

I did a little research and it would seem that you can send frames down a component connection. This might explain what was worrying you before. The camera is sending fields, your video card unless told to bob is sending frames.

post deleted for errors

I did a little research and it would seem that you can send frames down a component connection. This might explain what was worrying you before. The camera is sending fields, your video card unless told to bob is sending frames.
If you have 720p you always send frame sat up to 60p. And with HDMI you can send 1080 frames at up to 60p.

I was talking about the V1 specifically. I just got an email from someone who found out the hard way that Vegas will not write the V1's 24p back to the V1. Same as Piotr found with 25p.

And since I've found I can't burn a 24p or 25p HD DVD -- that leaves a camcorder with a near useless HD progressive mode. This is not the case for the DVX100 and JVC 720p24 camcorders.

One can explain Apple/Avid not supporting the V1 because they have never promised a time frame. But Sony not supporting Sony??? It sure can't be that Sony software couldn't get access to a prototype. And, it can't be that Sony software was unable to get the technical documentation from Sony so they could support 25p/30p PTT. And, it's not like it's rocket science to ADD 2-3 pulldown.

Sony is spending millions on marketing 24p and 25p, but without full support of the V1 by software, it's wasting its own money. It's crazy to tell a person go buy CineForm and Premiere Pro. But, it's equally crazy they can't output their HD producton to HDV. And, given who the client is -- it's really really bizzarre.


Sorry Steve but from what I've seen there's some glaring errors in what I assume you're saying.
I can convert 25PsF to 24p, frame for frame in Vegas. I can then insert pulldown and create a 60i m2t file, I posted a link to exactly this a few days ago. Only thing I haven't investigated is doing Advanced pulldown.
I can take the same thing back into a 24p timeline with Remove Pulldown enabled and get back the 24p. The only thing I come up short on is being able to set the P flag on the tape. This is hardly a new challenge as far as I know, DB, SP, DV and probably most other industry standard tape formats leave you in the same boat, including footage from the DVX100.

Same goes for 25PsF, OK, I've got to render it as 50i and print that to tape, so what? Same deal applies to every other tape format out there, from VHS to DB and HDCAM.

In the case of the camera it makes zero difference from what I can see, 25PsF or 50i on tape is going to come out the HDMI or component ports the same way. Realistically the flags aren't that much help, just saves you loging what it was shot in.

This is nowhere near the issues Canon's F mode creates, the only way to play the tapes is in a Canon camera. And once you get it on a T/L then what , you're going to have to PTT as 50i anyway unless you've got a CineAlta deck or a Canon camera on hand.
And then for broadcast, as far as I know there's no standard even being discussed for 1080p broadcasting and when there is it'll probably be 60p.

If you want to gripe about anything, well I for one think it'd be nice if Sony came out with a HDV deck that played it all, what's a post house to do when handed a 25F tape?

There is always 24p and 25p DVD. It is SD of course but even the sony site states that a great use of the V1 is to create true 24p DVD's. This has usually been the delivery format of those shooting 24p with the DVX100 or Canon XL2 camera.

As for not authoring a 24p HD-DVD that is the fault of the highly limited HD-DVD authoring software we have at this time. HD-DVD sadly only supports 1080 24p sitting inside of a 60i stream with flags sort of like how 24p DVD works. With proper authoring and encoding software we should all be able to at some point create a HD-DVD with the proper flags set. The limited specs I could find did say that 24p was supported for 720p but there was no 25p support. If 720p 24p doesn't work right now I would have to take a guess that it is a limitation of the current crop of HD-DVD authoring software.

If Vegas itself will not export export a 23.976 with pulldown file then the next best thing would be to export a true 23.976 file and use a stand alone encoder such as the Main Concept encoder to encode the mpeg2 file with the proper flags.

Since HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are still pretty new I'm sure most people dealing with 24p will continue to do it the way we have for the last few years which is to either deliver as a 24p DVD or deliver a image sequence to a film lab, both methods which are listed on the SONY website.


As for editing 24p without removing the pulldown, you have to be very carefull. If your project is 100% cuts only and you cut on the right frame then you should be ok. As soon as you add any type of rendered effects or animation those effects will get rendered as 60i while the video under will still be 24p inside of 60i. This is going to not only create a funky look with the effects having a different style of motion compared to the video but also really mess up any pulldown detection hardware.

I can convert 25PsF to 24p, frame for frame in Vegas. I can then insert pulldown and create a 60i m2t file, I posted a link to exactly this a few days ago. Only thing I haven't investigated is doing Advanced pulldown.
I can take the same thing back into a 24p timeline with Remove Pulldown enabled and get back the 24p. The only thing I come up short on is being able to set the P flag on the tape.

"Then I rendered to 1080 60i HDV but in the MainConcept mpeg encoder set the frame rate to 23.976 + 2-3 Pulldown and moved the quality slider to 15.

Vegas will render the file with a .m2t extension and although I haven't tried as yet you should be able to PTT this file."

Bob, did you try PTT? My friend said that the problem was the V1 wouldn't accept anyhing 24p. Perhaps, the camcorder does need certain flags set. Perhaps it thinks you have a ripped movie.

I'll delete my post as I think I have figured out a way to fool the HD DVD burning software to do 24. No point in doing this for 25p if the players can't play it.

There is always 24p and 25p DVD. It is SD of course but even the sony site states that a great use of the V1 is to create true 24p DVD's. This has usually been the delivery format of those shooting 24p with the DVX100 or Canon XL2 camera.

HD-DVD sadly only supports 1080 24p sitting inside of a 60i stream with flags sort of like how 24p DVD works.

I understand that many people still deliver in SD. But, HDV has been around for about 4 years -- some claim it will be "replaced" by AVCHD within another year. There are those who bought into HDV because they must deliver HD. The lack of support NLE support is horrible. Given Bob's "how to do it post" I find it amazing that that Sony software and Sony video have not worked together to promote this capability.

As far as I know both BR and HD DVD movies are on the disc at 24p.

I understand that many people still deliver in SD. But, HDV has been around for about 4 years -- some claim it will be "replaced" by AVCHD within another year. There are those who bought into HDV because they must deliver HD. The lack of support NLE support is horrible. Given Bob's "how to do it post" I find it amazing that that Sony software and Sony video have not worked together to promote this capability.

As far as I know both BR and HD DVD movies are on the disc at 24p.

HD-DVD supports 25P movies. This caused an outcry actually. BD supports 25P through Psf. Just like HD broadcasts support 25P.

What is so difficult to understand Steve?

TT

I didn't see your link, but I did see Piotr post that he couldn't do it. Is this output process documented in Vegas? Like in a readme that came with Vegas?

I'll delete my post as I think I have figured out a wy to fool the hd dvd burning software to do 24. No point in doing this for 25p if the players can't play it.

The process is documented in the manual. Also from way back when the DVX100 came out the Vegas team had a white paper on handling 24p and converting between 24p and 25p.

The trick with adding pulldown for HDV is it's done in the MC encoder, under the Video tab > Frame Rate Select 23.976 + 2-3 Pulldown. There's no template as such but a simple task to create your own, again explained in the manual. I believe the manual can be downloaded by anyone and the white papers are also freely available from the Sony Vegas site with a little digging in the Knowledgebase

I'd suspect the reason we can't get a 25PsF or 30PsF file out of Vegas is a limitation of the Main Concept encoder rather than Vegas itself. I'd not be in the least surprised to see that option becoming available at some time. It's hardly a pressing need though, we've been coping with film telecined to DB etc for a long time.

http://pixeltools.com/tech_hd_dvd.html

Specs are very hard to find but here is a $3,000 HD encoding tool that lists the formats supported by HD-DVD. This list has nothing to do with what the current HD-DVD authoring programs can support. For example Pinnacle Studio HD-DVD authoring I'm pretty sure wouldn't support any form of 24p since Studio itself doesn't support 24p. It seems as though Pal users are kind of left out in the cold when it comes to 720p HD-DVD. Your options seem to be to either encode with duplicate frames to make it 50p or convert time shifted to 24p. I have no clue if 24p would even work in a Pal region but I assume it would. The 50p wouldn't be all that bad either because due to the GOP compression the every other frame would be a 100% duplicate so it would take up very few bits if any at all. Has anybody tried just encoding 720p 25p into a 720p 50p to see if that would work in their HD-DVD authoring program? The same would work for 24p as well. 2 out of every 5 frames would be total duplicates and wouldn't need to take up any bits so the encoding should look just as good as if it were just 24p encoded using the same bitrate. The amount of space used should be pretty much the same as well so encoding 24p, 25p or 30p as 50p or 60p should look almost exactly the same. The only difference is that instead of the player having to add in the extra frames to make it fit within the 50p or 60p specs the video is already fit to those specs.

HD-DVD supports 25P movies. This caused an outcry actually. BD supports 25P through Psf. Just like HD broadcasts support 25P.

What is so difficult to understand Steve?

TT

The only HD DVD player does NOT until a firmware update at some point in the future. I posted the exact quote fromToshiba a few weeks ago. If you really have any interest -- you can go look for it.

The trick with adding pulldown for HDV is it's done in the MC encoder, under the Video tab > Frame Rate Select 23.976 + 2-3 Pulldown. There's no template as such but a simple task to create your own, again explained in the manual. I believe the manual can be downloaded by anyone and the white papers are also freely available from the Sony Vegas site with a little digging in the Knowledgebase.


I found your post, but you said you not actually done a PTT. So have you actually had your V1 write a Vegas made file to tape?

That's where my friend is stuck. The V1 will not write the the Vegas 24p timeline to tape.

Spot should it do so? How?

Steve, after you open Print to tape from Vegas Tools, when it detects the V1 connected it only offers the choice between 1080/50i or 1080/60i. These optins are not fixed, and only show after a camera is recognized - so probably there is a possibility to PTT 24/25p to some other cameras?

The only HD DVD player does NOT until a firmware update at some point in the future. I posted the exact quote fromToshiba a few weeks ago. If you really have any interest -- you can go look for it.

That is irrelevant. The HD DVD specs allow 25P (i.e. progressive) as an option for studio film delivery. BD mandates 24P for film delivery across all regions.

25P will/can be delivered as Psf in 50i on both formats.

TT

Steve, after you open Print to tape from Vegas Tools, when it detects the V1 connected it only offers the choice between 1080/50i or 1080/60i. These optins are not fixed, and only show after a camera is recognized - so probably there is a possibility to PPT 24/25p to some other cameras?

Once you've had the encoder add the pulldown to 60i and produce a m2t file, you simply PTT as 60i.
I didn't physically try this, I can if you like but I can think of no earthly reason why it will not work.
I can take that m2t file back into Vegas with pulldown removal enabled and get back the 24p on a 24p T/L.

Or I can disable pulldown removal, take it into a 60i T/L and edit as such.

As far as I know this is what has been done with DV for years.

You can PTT 25p as 50i also, exactly the same as 25PsF, all that's missing is the flags. When you capture it back this is even easier to deal with on the T/L, you just change the Field Order to None - Progresssive and presto, you have your 25p back again.

You can PTT 25p as 50i also, exactly the same as 25PsF, all that's missing is the flags. When you capture it back this is even easier to deal with on the T/L, you just change the Field Order to None - Progresssive and presto, you have your 25p back again.

Exactly, this is what I did. So the workflow for the 25PsF is there; the only thing still missing in this puzzle is: how to tell a HDTV to weave instead of bobbing!

Exactly, this is what I did. So the workflow for the 25PsF is there; the only thing still missing in this puzzle is: how to tell a HDTV to weave instead of bobbing!

I wish there was an easy answer to that one but until everything goes progressive somehow I don't think we're going to see a solution. Consummers expect things to be Plug 'n Play but even with the most intelligent displays trying to work out how to display what they're being fed they would potentially be getting video that's interlaced for a few frames and then progressive etc. With playback from DVDs the problem should be solveable but OTA and cable signals could and will contain anything.

Last night I watched a video game on the PS3 hooked up to the latest Sony Full HD TV of monsterous proportions. The fine detail in the game had line twitter.

Since the Sony's advice to the R50 V1 users of turning down sharpness to 3 is not only very superficial and non-technical, but also uneffective (there is still some twitter of fine, contrasty, horizontal lines) - I went all the way today and shot a couple of scenes with sharpness at 0 (zero). I have also set everything for the most "filmic" look possible (cinegamma 2, cinecolour etc). The result is a very pleasing, filmic look - with still enough resolution to call it HD!

But of course Sony cannot demand the V1E/P users to use the lowest sharpness possible in order to create video that is watchable not only with a computer software (where de-interlacing can be switched off, thus eliminating line twitter even with sharpness as high as 9 and above), but also from the camera itself or a Blu-Ray/HD DVD connected with HDMI/Component to a HDTV. I can't imagine Sony is not aware of this fact, so if they are still selling the V1 in Europe as a true progressive camcorder, they must have some solution up the sleeve. So far however, the only thing they have to say is:

“Whilst the progressive shooting capability may not be needed by all users, those who want to see the true film like quality that is capable from this camera should use a progressive monitor.”

(the above is an excerpt from this article: http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_EU&contentId=1171641886621)

With playback from DVDs the problem should be solveable

What do you mean by that, Bob? Do you think our 25PsF will play all right from a BD or HD DVD "as is" within 1080/50i, or shall we convert it to 24p the way you showed is possible with Vegas? Frankly, my clips converted to 24p behave exactly like the 25PsF original when played with VLC, i.e. they twitter like hell when bobbing is truned on. So, unless a HDTV recognize them as progressive when played from a BD/HD player, I still don't see a clear solution...

So, coming back to the topic. I have blurred with Premiere Gaussian filter (V=2.5%) all the default (7) sharpness clips from the V1E, and compared them to the clips I captured earlier with the XH-A1 (same scenery, lighting, 25F mode). Bottom line:

The post-processed picture from the V1E - while freed from virtually any liny twitter - is still sharper and (visually, as I have no means to measure that) higher resolution than the raw video from the Canon.

Which doesn't change the fact that A1 is a wonderful machine, and probably can be tweaked to produce sharper images than those I shot during my short testing period.

The rest is just a matter of personal preferrences. Even more off topic is a question of the price/value ratio for the two cameras; it is arguably better for the Canon and this has always been the most important reason for me to still consider it.

I peeked to the Canon XH forum, and there is this post in the presets thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=641383&postcount=37

It proves my point that the A1 can indeed produce an image similar to the Sony's in sharpness and colour vividity, but only with its sharpness and colour gain taken to the very limits. I wish I had shot my garage with similar settings; wonder if aliasing would be visible (perhaps not twittering as the v-rez of the Canon is still lower, but some mosquito noise)?

OK guys, this thread has provided great help in understanding the V1E/P progressive mode pecularities, once again thanks to the main participants.

However, before I make my final decision, a quick but important question to any PAL version users out there: with the recommended by Sony sharpness at 3, is your component/HDMI output on a full HD display completely twitter free?

Because mine is not; even with sharpness at zero!

I'd appreciate all feedback; TIA

However, before I make my final decision, a quick but important question to any PAL version users out there: with the recommended by Sony sharpness at 3, is your component/HDMI output on a full HD display completely twitter free?


I would say mine is completely "twitter" free at 3, and usable at least to 5-7.
Btw. I also managed to get my clips burnt on an HD-DVD (using stnd DVD, see the other thread). Pls. tell us which cam did you ended up choosing ?

I would say mine is completely "twitter" free at 3, and usable at least to 5-7.
Btw. I also managed to get my clips burnt on an HD-DVD (using stnd DVD, see the other thread). Pls. tell us which cam did you ended up choosing ?

I'll soon be changing my signature - then you will know:)

In the meantime I can tell you that (at least in my unit) there is still some twitter even with sharpness at zero. Also, I learned from Manfrotto that the MN523Pro lanc controller that used to work just fine with the original V1E (i.e. before the fix) doesn't wotk with the "fixed" V1E's (it switches the camera off after several seconds). So, yet another problem to solve...

I'll soon be changing my signature - then you will know:)

In the meantime I can tell you that (at least in my unit) there is still some twitter even with sharpness at zero. Also, I learned from Manfrotto that the MN523Pro lanc controller that used to work just fine with the original V1E (i.e. before the fix) doesn't wotk with the "fixed" V1E's (it switches the camera off after several seconds). So, yet another problem to solve...

Too bad. Luckily I don't have any lanc controller, just the normal plain tripod.
But this means Sony have really changed somethig in the SW since you did not have this problem before, i.e. they did not only change some filter settings as speculated here somewhere?

Last night I watched a video game on the PS3 hooked up to the latest Sony Full HD TV of monsterous proportions. The fine detail in the game had line twitter.

Bob's comment suggests the answer to your question "with the recommended by Sony sharpness at 3, is your component/HDMI output on a full HD display completely twitter free? Because mine is not; even with sharpness at zero!"

Twitter has a way of showing-up when ever the source has very high V rez plus very thin lines. The solution is to pre-filter before recording or in post. Sony's not filtering -- which perhaps it should on the V1E. Perhaps an optical anti-aliasing filter could be added.

PIOTR -- you might want to go to dvfilm.com and download DVfilm Maker. Not only does it deinterlace and optionally add grain -- it has a twitter filter!

BOB -- did you ever actually record 24 with 2-3 pulldown added back to the camcorder?

PIOTR -- did you ever actually record 1080i50 from a 25p Timeline back to the V1E?

Steve

Yes I PTT'ed a 25p timeline as 1080i, but did watch it through component/HDMI yet. Did you read Timo's comment about the Toshiba HDTV not showing any line twitter in his V1E's 25PsF?

BOB -- did you ever actually record 24 with 2-3 pulldown added back to the camcorder?

PIOTR -- did you ever actually record 1080i50 from a 25p Timeline back to the V1E?

Just recorded 24p back to a M15U deck, no problems. Captured it back with Pulldown Removal Enabled and got back 23.976. Note that I had to start from a HDV 23.976 project and PTT from that T/L, for some reason the VCR did not like the 60i clip I posted previously. Still no harm done, as it can be done.

To my knowledge Sony haven't changed anything in the LANC. I use LANC daily, and while I don't have a Manfrotto, I've had the V1 on several 3rd party LANCs and no change/differences of any kind. Just used the newer Canon LANC yesterday, and all features worked as expected.
LANC is a protocol, it's not something they're going to be messing with.

[QUOTE=Piotr Wozniacki;627765]That's what I've always done. I only meant that while it's easy with Premiere, my Vegas 7.0d cannot export a 1080/25p MPEG-2 by just changing the frame rate in the 1080/24p "Blue Print" template; I'll try to go through advanced video settings in order to make it work as soon as I have captured 25p material from the "fixed" V1E that I've just got an hour ago.

I just use the 1080/50i set to progressive and it produces a playable M2t that is progressive. I play it in VLC as progressive with no problems. I did one test with median filter in Vegas just to tidy up some anti-aliasing, did a good job but took a long time to render.I don't have any software to make a HD-DVD, but I would say there should not be a problem playing in a full progressive setup as the M2t appears compatible.

[I just use the 1080/50i set to progressive and it produces a playable M2t that is progressive. I play it in VLC as progressive with no problems. I don't have any software to make a HD-DVD, but I would say there should not be a problem playing in a full progressive setup as the M2t appears compatible.
Since you can't record 25p to your V1E, since BD doesn't support 25p, and the Toshiba HD DVD player doesn't yet support 25p playback -- there's not a big need to export 25p. (Unless you are going to film.)

Likewise for a 24p timeline. You can't record 24p to your V1E, the low-cost BD creation software may not yet support 24p; and the HD DVD creation may not yet support 24p -- there's not a big need to export 24p. (Unless you are going to film.)

Did you find difference between setting the output file to Progressive or Upper Field interlace?

Since you can't record 25p to your V1E, since BD doesn't support 25p, and the Toshiba HD DVD player doesn't yet support 25p playback -- there's not a big need to export 25p. (Unless you are going to film.)

Likewise for a 24p timeline. You can't record 24p to your V1E, the low-cost BD creation software may not yet support 24p; and the HD DVD creation may not yet support 24p -- there's not a big need to export 24p. (Unless you are going to film.)

Did you find difference between setting the output file to Progressive or Upper Field interlace?

If you mean was there any other differences than just setting progressive, no. But I did notice in the advanced settings that some of the Pal settings did not automatically display and you had to set them manually, and trying to tweak the advanced settings to achieve "better" results was a waste of time.
The interesting fact I really wanted to know was just putting M2t files on DVD and playing them via PlayStation 3 and what quality was achieved through a progressive TV or even as interlaced.

To my knowledge Sony haven't changed anything in the LANC. I use LANC daily, and while I don't have a Manfrotto, I've had the V1 on several 3rd party LANCs and no change/differences of any kind. Just used the newer Canon LANC yesterday, and all features worked as expected.
LANC is a protocol, it's not something they're going to be messing with.

Spot, LANC is a protocol, but we all know it has some flavours; eg. the Canon's implementation varies from Sony's in certain aspects. For this reason, many controllers' PAF button works with some cameras but doesn't work with others. With the V1E, all MN523Pro's buttons function as intented, but only for several seconds - than the camera is simply switched off. My dealer informed me that the first V1E units he had before the 25p fix worked flawlessly (just like all the FX7s). So, go figure!

The Manfrotto's lanc controllers are being developed in Poland, and I will probably become their Beta-tester for the fixed MN523Pro.

Bob -- thank you. Previously, you mentioned that the P-flag was not being set in your exports.

Then I read this from from Michael -- "I just use the 1080/50i set to progressive and it produces a playable M2t that is progressive. I play it in VLC as progressive with no problems."

What were you trying trying to export?

How did you do this?

How did you find the P-flag wasn't being set?

Michael -- I'm confused by "1080/50i set to progressive." Do you mean you CHANGED the Field seting for a 1080/50i preset to NONE?

I'm now not using: 1080/24PsF 1080/25PsF 1080/30PsF

I find it far more clear to use:

1080i60 -- the way my magazine writes 1080/60i

1080i60/24p -- V1U (2-3 pulldown used)

1080i60/30p -- V1U

1080p60 -- coming someday


1080i50 -- the way my magazine writes 1080/50i

1080i50/25p -- V1E

1080p25 -- coming for HD DVD players via firmware

1080p50 -- coming someday


1080p24 -- pure 24p (BD and HD DVD)

1080p24F -- Canon's true 1080p24 but not with 24p images


720p25

720p30 -- likely to go away

720p50

720p60

720p60/24p -- 2-3 pulldown used

One can instantly see the nature of the video format by the first "i" or "p" and it reminds one they are working with interlace video even though Sony calls it 24p, 25p, and 30p.

The second number -- if there is one -- tells you the frame rate. The "p" tells you the carried images are really progressive.

The ratio between the two numbers, if not "2" -- tells you 2-3 pulldown is being used. For example, you can instantly see that to have a 1080p24 timeline, the 2-3 pulldown must be removed from 1080i60/24p. However, you also instantly see that you can edit in a 60i timeline because of the "1080i60" designation. Then when one wants to go to film, which is 1080p24 -- one instantly sees by the ratio between "60" and "24" that the 2-3 pulldown must now be removed.

For example, if one is editing 1080i50/25p, when one wants to go to film they DEINTERLACE which removes the "i" and replaces it by a "p" yielding 1080p25.

Or, if one has a 1080p25 timeline and wants to PTT to their V1E they must "convert" to 1080i50/25p. They know the Sony camcorder can only record 1080i50.

Bob -- thank you. Previously, you mentioned that the P-flag was not being set in your exports.

Then I read this from from Michael -- "I just use the 1080/50i set to progressive and it produces a playable M2t that is progressive. I play it in VLC as progressive with no problems."

What were you trying trying to export?

How did you do this?

How did you find the P-flag wasn't being set?

Michael -- I'm confused by "1080/50i set to progressive." Do you mean you CHANGED the Field seting for a 1080/50i preset to NONE?

Yes, Steve, changed to none. I was just using the template in Vegas for 1080/50i and changing it to progressive with 25P captured from from the V1P. Reimported the rendered clip into Vegas and it showed as progressive.

Steve, Bob, Michael at al,

My impression is that we have started repeating what has already been said on the main subject. I realize I have my own, private agenda (of choosing the best cam for myself), please accept my apologies for that. I'd like to re-ask the question: whatever you call it Steve (1080/25PsF or 1080i50/25p), don't you agree that the V1E progressive material isn't "flawed" per se, but simply is not being correctly displayed? What we have is each of 25 frames per second written as two fields (or segments), taken in the same moment of time, one containing the odd lines and the other - the even ones. Now, to get back a full 1080 lines frame, both segments should not be "deinterlaced" (this process always assumes some method of approaching the temporal difference between fields), but displayed at the same time (weaved). This is evidently not the case, when the V1E is connected through HDMI or component to a progressive display. The fields are bobbed, which pronounces the aliasing effects present in the material.

The experiment with the 1080-line chart from Bob confirmed that it can be displayed correctly, without aliasing, as long as no deinterlacing is engaged. Bobbing it leads to horrible flicker (even worse than with the 25p material from the V1E, as we have fields of 1080 not just 540 lines being bobbed).

All the above is my understanding of the problem. If I'm missing something, please correct me.