My monitor is not deinterlacing and neither is the software. I can see aliasing aplenty. I can see the oil paint effect in the dark areas of the garage and I can see the dancing noise round contrasty edges.

TT

The ONLY way your monitor is not deinterlacing is if its an interlace CRT display. Since almost no one has HD CRT monitors at home or in public -- the "issue" is no issue.

The question is what P mode looks like on a Bravia or other high quality flat-screen monitor. At 3 the line twitter and aliasing are gone. They are gone in Europe and Piotr's video played in the USA show no signs either.

The only open questions are "is 3 too soft" and if so where is the point where aliasing looks worse than a too soft pix. You can't answer these questions. Piotr can.

I can tell you the V1 offers equal H. rez to the Canon and much much better V. rez than the Canon in 24F. Even when the Canon is in interlace, the V1 matches it.

PS: Another week of V1E sales and you are still the only one posting they can see the supposed oil paint effect on fixed units. Simon no longer does, nor was it reported in the dvinfo UK review. And Piotr's video shows no signs either.

Of course if you bring up a frame in PS and blow it up 4X you can see a difference, but who does this?

The ONLY way your monitor is not deinterlacing is if its an interlace CRT display. Since almost no one has HD CRT monitors at home or in public -- the "issue" is no issue.



ALL the artefacts are clearly visible viewing the clips viewed in QT Pro and VLC displayed on a 23" Apple Cinema Display and also on 24" Dell. Both displays are 1920x1200 showing the full 1440x1080 HDV.

Neither display are deinterlacing the content and neither VLC nor QT are deinterlacing it either.

If you cannot see the artefacts in Piotr's clip then I can only assume you have not viewed it or are incapable of viewing it correctly yourself.

Until I am told otherwise I shall counter your arguments at every opportunity as they do not reflect accurately the reason for poor progressive performance from the V1.

Have a great weekend.

TT

ALL the artefacts are clearly visible viewing the clips viewed in QT Pro and VLC displayed on a 23" Apple Cinema Display and also on 24" Dell. Both displays are 1920x1200 showing the full 1440x1080 HDV.

Until I am told otherwise I shall counter your arguments at every opportunity as they do not reflect accurately the reason for poor progressive performance from the V1.

Have a great weekend.

TT

Likewise.

I'm not claiming line-twitter aliasing is CAUSED by the monitor! I'm only saying a monitor can create artifacts when none are present and remove artifacts that are present. You can see that by switching between the various VLC modes.

I have a very good idea why the Region 50 units need a setting of 3 to virtually eliminate line-twitter and aliasing. At 3 these artifacts are no longer a problem -- hence THEY cannot cause any "performance" problems.

Since P mode is 99% used for a film look -- the softer look at 3 matches the goal of film look.

Now IF you consider the softer video at 3 to be poor performance -- that's your option. I'm not going to fight over this point since I want a high detail pix. But, i would use 50i.

Have a good weekend.

PS: Another week of V1E sales and you are still the only one posting they can see the supposed oil paint effect on fixed units. Simon no longer does, nor was it reported in the dvinfo UK review. And Piotr's video shows no signs either.

Of course if you bring up a frame in PS and blow it up 4X you can see a difference, but who does this?

Sorry but I cannot find any post from Simon saying he no longer sees the problem. His last comment on CML (that I don't have access to) seems to be that the excessive coring issue has been reduced in the V1E post the fix.

I've had one email from a V1U user saying he's returned the camera because of the oil painting effect that he can clearly see.

On the V1P, I can see the problem also.

As for another week of V1 sales, well I have no hard evidence to back this up, no one does, but I seriously doubt this camera is selling in anything like the quantities the Z1 has. Most of the early adopters have already bought a Z1, those that wanted P probably already have a suitable camera.

And out of those that have bought a V1 and seen the problem, well they're hardly being welcomed with open arms here. So far they've been told screen grabs mean nothing, they don't know what they're doing, their monitors are at fault etc. You'd have to have a pretty think hide to stick you hand up around here.

Just a further interesting note.
The HDMI output from the V1P is capable of rescaling, it would seem the HDMI spec permits a display device to define the resolution it needs and the sending device will rescale. So it's quite likely when you connect the camera to a HDMI display the camera's HDMI output is being rescaled by the HDMI chip in the camera to match the resolution of the display device.
That could maybe, perhaps, explain a few things.
This was something I never knew until we tested the V1P with another device that we wrongly thought had a rescaler, turns out it doesn't need one, it forces the camera to do it.

However, the ultimate test will be for me that of trying how a Bravia HDTV can interpret a progressive material, put on a BlueRay player.

Therefore, I'm in an urgent need to put some HDV 1080/25p file (around 2 GB) on a regular DVD (don't have HD or BlueRay burner) in such a way that it be readable by a BlueRay player. Is it possible? Which authoring application will allow me to create the structure on my HDD, so that I could just copy it to a DVD as data? I've heard this is possible with Ulead VideoStudio, but only with HD DVD.

At this time, you cannot play it on BluRay. HD-DVD doesn't help either since there is no 24p output. HD-DVD does have 60p output but unfortunately there is an internal conversion from progressive to interlace before going to 60p.

Sorry but I cannot find any post from Simon saying he no longer sees the problem. His last comment on CML (that I don't have access to) seems to be that the excessive coring issue has been reduced in the V1E post the fix.
Simon sent me an email saying the problem was fixed. Since he found the problem, I'd put his post-fix evaluation ahead of anyone elses. And the UK review had no mention of oil paint. Plus, I believe my eyes and equipment since I've got both V1U and V1E samples.

If I blow a single frame up 4X in PS, I can see that solid color areas in P mode are less filled with noise than in I mode.
The absence of noise shows coring in action. Of course, an absence of noise is also a good thing.

Moreover, we have no idea if there is a camera to camera variation. I lived thru the JVC SSE problem. There were huge unit to unit variations. So maybe we should call a truce.

Let me ask a question, simply because there's something that I really don't understand.

I certainly agree based on what I've seen that "sharpness" is very likely the key to avoiding this problem. I don't really understand what Sharpness is in this context. I undertand resolution, MTF, and what edge enhancement attempts to do.
Is the Sharpness setting in the camera reducing resolution i.e. by reducing the setting are we doing irrepairable harm to the image or are we merely reducing the amount of artificial edge enhancement.

Where I'm coming from is you were saying the only question is is "3" acceptable. In my view if "3" is only reducing the amount of artificial EE why wouldn't it be acceptable. My understanding is it's quite easy (render times aside) to add edge enchancement in post. Doing something in post is way more preferable to having something happen in camera that cannot be undone in post.

If you're right I'd have to ask why 3, why not 0 or less. If we can add EE in post surely the cleanest possible recorded image is the way to go.

Bob, IMHO lower sharpness reduces bandwidth, thus killing fine detail - you won't get them back in post!

But I still have the gut feeling the solution to what constitutes the main problem - line twitter - must be simple and obvious. If a software player, feeding a progressive LCD monitor through DVI, doesn't show line twitter, it implies it is the method of de-interlacing (bobbing) on HDMI or Component inputs that produces it, not the camera.

I did create a custom profile approximating the look of the V1 but have since reverted back to less colour and edge enhancement. I guess I prefer the flatter less edgy look that the Canon gives. All the edges are sharp but just not over enhanced. That is my preference. But is it yours? Judging by your posts on this forum you do like the aesthetic of the Sony image. And there is certainly nothing wrong with that.


Tony, could you please tell us what settings on the A1 did you use to aproximate the V1 look? How much did you have to crank up the sharpness, and was the picture still quiet (I'm not talking about the "grain" inherent to the A1, but the aliasing artefacts that spoil the V1 progressive picture)?

Thanks!

At this time, you cannot play it on BluRay. HD-DVD doesn't help either since there is no 24p output. HD-DVD does have 60p output but unfortunately there is an internal conversion from progressive to interlace before going to 60p.

I've googled for the Blu-Ray disk format and found this white paper:
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/2b_bdrom_audiovisualapplication_0305-12955-13403.pdf

What strikes me, there is no 25p mode in the specification! (page 17).

What the heck, I mean how is 25p going to be delivered, and if through 50i, what is the point of shooting in 25p?!!

If you're right I'd have to ask why 3, why not 0 or less. If we can add EE in post surely the cleanest possible recorded image is the way to go.

The BBC reports on the A1 and Z1 actually have graphs of frequency response and edge response. At NORM, the frequency response (detail) is very good AND EE is low. They say it is the best balance. And, unlike the pro camers they and you are used to, there is no separate H and V control. I assumed the V1 was the same -- until I ran tests from 0 to 15.

Amazingly, there was no big increase of EE even at 12. This explained why Sony could set Portrait at 15. In my tests the EE seemed relatively constant from 3 to 12. What did change was detail. So it seems in the middle range, Sharpness really means detail. And, Piotr tests seem to confirm that EE isn't a big problem.

I've been sent Rez charts of V1 and it appears the V1 does an honest static 800x700+ resolution. But, there is a good bit of aliasing on the V axis. Aliasing is not new to Sony. Every review by Adam Wilt points to Sony getting max detail even if it means aliasing. Canon chooses the opposite tack.

I'm not defending Sony in the least. It's that with the U the aliasing is acceptable -- perhaps because I'm used to aliasing with Sony DV camcorders -- up to 8 with P. My review of the V1U will definitely point out that even at 5 -- with P there is a bit of aliasing.

In the 25p Piotr sent me, at 3 the image is free of line-twitter and aliasing, just like the V1U at 5. Cutting the frequency response naturally removes line-twitter and aliasing. The problems is that while lowering the frequency response is good in the vertical axis -- it is not needed on the horizontal. And that is the problem. The pix is too soft!

Can Piotr live with 3 softness OR find 4 an acceptable compromise OR find a way to V. filter in post. FCP has a FLICKER FILTER:

Reduces flicker caused by interlacing in still frames that have thin
vertical lines, such as title pages with small text. Three settings are
available: minimal, medium, and max. These settings allow you to
selectively trade off between the amount of flicker and the amount
of vertical softness in the resulting video image.

Seems like this real-time filter is just what you guys need to use with Sharpness set to 5 to 9.

I've googled for the Blu-Ray disk format and found this white paper:
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/2b_bdrom_audiovisualapplication_0305-12955-13403.pdf

What strikes me, there is no 25p mode in the specification! (page 17).

What the heck, I mean how is 25p going to be delivered, and if through 50i, what is the point of shooting in 25p?!!

We watch 25p material daily here in EU. You can send 25p easily in 50i worlds.

Tony, could you please tell us what settings on the A1 did you use to aproximate the V1 look? How much did you have to crank up the sharpness, and was the picture still quiet (I'm not talking about the "grain" inherent to the A1, but the aliasing artefacts that spoil the V1 progressive picture)?

Thanks!

I'll try and look for my notes when I get home and create the settings again. It was not rocket science though. I had a FCP showing a frame of V1 footage on one monitor and the live input from the XH-A1 into another monitor. The two monitors were colour matched to make the comparison reasonably accurate but not absolute.

The Canon sharpness control is much more simplistic than the Sony V1's. The Canon employs simple edge enhancement while the sony employs a routine more akin to an unsharp mask operator so the looks are not identical.

The any edge enhancement/sharpness setting can increase the visibility of noise depending on the threshold it is set to. I have the Canon set to -2 sharpness and even when toying with +ve values did not notice increased visibility of noise.

I boosted the colour and use the steeper gamma curve along with quite a lot of fiddling with the matrix controls to mimic the colour reproduction and balance of the V1. The standard XH-A1 look is not great it has to be said.

Anyway a month of fiddling and my preset of choice has evolved into something I am extremely pleased with. As far away from the Sony progressive look as possible.

TT

But the fact is that BLEND eliminates line twitter completely - even when I send the video from VLC through component, and even at 12 sharpness setting! The image loses some resolution, but is still sharper than Canon's and almost equally quiet in terms of aliasing.

Now, I'd appreciated it very much if somebody told be how to implement the same effect in Vegas. Which filter should I be using, so that the H-rez is intact? I could then re-encode some of my test shots, print them back to tape and ruch to the Sony dealer to check it on a Bravia HDTV again.. But I'm running short of time!

I'll try and look for my notes when I get home and create the settings again. It was not rocket science though. I had a FCP showing a frame of V1 footage on one monitor and the live input from the XH-A1 into another monitor. The two monitors were colour matched to make the comparison reasonably accurate but not absolute.

The Canon sharpness control is much more simplistic than the Sony V1's. The Canon employs simple edge enhancement while the sony employs a routine more akin to an unsharp mask operator so the looks are not identical.

The any edge enhancement/sharpness setting can increase the visibility of noise depending on the threshold it is set to. I have the Canon set to -2 sharpness and even when toying with +ve values did not notice increased visibility of noise.

I boosted the colour and use the steeper gamma curve along with quite a lot of fiddling with the matrix controls to mimic the colour reproduction and balance of the V1. The standard XH-A1 look is not great it has to be said.

Anyway a month of fiddling and my preset of choice has evolved into something I am extremely pleased with. As far away from the Sony progressive look as possible.

TT

Tony, thanks for the info. You're confirming what I remember as my impression when fiddling with the sharpness settings on the A1 - it adds more EE instead of increasing fine detailness. As to the colour though - well, I played with Console so you don't need to convince me that virtually any look can be squeezed out of the A1...

Now, I'd appreciated it very much if somebody told be how to implement the same effect in Vegas. Which filter should I be using, so that the H-rez is intact? I could then re-encode some of my test shots, print them back to tape and ruch to the Sony dealer to check it on a Bravia HDTV again.. But I'm running short of time!

I've used Gaussian Blur on 1000s of high res stills for 16:9 SD DVDs. That FX lets you adjust H & V sharpness, very handy tool.
Back around V5 days it did have a problem, it seemed to calc the blur at project res not source res, so even 0.001 was too much. For that reason I used to run HD projects and then downres. SInce V6 the problem seems to be fixed.

The BBC reports on the A1 and Z1 actually have graphs of frequency response and edge response. At NORM, the frequency response (detail) is very good AND EE is low. They say it is the best balance. And, unlike the pro camers they and you are used to, there is no separate H and V control. I assumed the V1 was the same -- until I ran tests from 0 to 15.

Amazingly, there was no big increase of EE even at 12. This explained why Sony could set Portrait at 15. In my tests the EE seemed relatively constant from 3 to 12. What did change was detail. So it seems in the middle range, Sharpness really means detail. And, Piotr tests seem to confirm that EE isn't a big problem.

I've been sent Rez charts of V1 and it appears the V1 does an honest static 800x700+ resolution. But, there is a good bit of aliasing on the V axis. Aliasing is not new to Sony. Every review by Adam Wilt points to Sony getting max detail even if it means aliasing. Canon chooses the opposite tack.

I'm not defending Sony in the least. It's that with the U the aliasing is acceptable -- perhaps because I'm used to aliasing with Sony DV camcorders -- up to 8 with P. My review of the V1U will definitely point out that even at 5 -- with P there is a bit of aliasing.

In the 25p Piotr sent me, at 3 the image is free of line-twitter and aliasing, just like the V1U at 5. Cutting the frequency response naturally removes line-twitter and aliasing. The problems is that while lowering the frequency response is good in the vertical axis -- it is not needed on the horizontal. And that is the problem. The pix is too soft!

Can Piotr live with 3 softness OR find 4 an acceptable compromise OR find a way to V. filter in post. FCP has a FLICKER FILTER:

Reduces flicker caused by interlacing in still frames that have thin
vertical lines, such as title pages with small text. Three settings are
available: minimal, medium, and max. These settings allow you to
selectively trade off between the amount of flicker and the amount
of vertical softness in the resulting video image.

Seems like this real-time filter is just what you guys need to use with Sharpness set to 5 to 9.

Well Vegas has it's Reduce Interlace Flicker event property switch, to be honest I avoid it now, makes the images way too soft for my liking, the GB FX as I mentioned above is far more selective.

Your observations re sharpness are interesting. What I've seen directly from the camera in they way of noise down towards the blacks looks really odd, no chroma just black chunks. I thought that could have been from EE applied to noise but then elsewhere in the frames is normal noise, very strange.

Problem seems to be that whatever it is when it hits the encoder it goes into overload and that's what's generating that smeared look perhaps. Prior to encoding it doesn't look so bad I think but I'd need to run some more detailed test to be 100% certain.

What's really confusing now is learning that the camera is probably sending 720i (or is it p) to the monitor out it's HDMI port, yish, if this wasn't confusing enough.

Now here's another thing.
Aliasing occurs when the frequency of a signal reaches half the sample clock rate, the Nyquist frequency. One reason stills are always problematic with video in NLEs is the 'cost' of implementing a brick wall filter. Vegas tends to let things go a bit too close, it keeps resolution really high but you can get some real aliasing headaches. Now for DV the sample clock always runs at 13.5MHz in both PAL and NTSC but what about HD, DV can keep the clock the same despite the frame rate as the frame resolution keeps everything the same but this doesn't work for HD, I think.
Could it be that the R50 versions of the camera runs the sample clock at a higher frequency than the R60 variant. Only problem with this theory is that should produce the opposite result, the R60 variant would have more aliasing.

OK guys - I encoded my test clips in Vegas, using minimum possible ammount of vertical Gaussian Blur (0.001). While it removes aliasing completely (even with original sharpness 12), I like the result of the BLEND de-interlacing option of VLC better. When used with the original video, it removed 90% aliasing while not reducing perceived resolution.

I guess we have done what I can call a quantum leap in understanding what's going on with the 25p video from the V1E. Thank you, guys.

The question remains open, though: what can be done to make the HDMI/Component inputs of our HD monitors and TVs stop deinterlacing the 25pfs video, or at least blend it instead of bobbing?

PS: Somebody is cutting away sections of our posts. Oh well:(

What you've done is the same as I do with high res still for SD, when I say high res I'm talking about images from 10M pixel DSLRs. Thing is how this problem can only happen when you downscale, you need a frequency higher than the sample clock in the source to bring it on. I could probably dig up a post from one of the Sony engineers about SinC functions etc, etc.

Just to further expand that point, the other way HD stills are usually handled is to batch convert them in PS to target res, when you drop that onto a FCP or Vegas T/L there's no problem with line twitter.

So this opens the question as to just where this is happening, given that we're dealing with HD and a camera with a vertical res of say 800 something is fishy. The camera would have to have better V res than 1000 to bring this on I think. Of course if your display device is less than 1080 then this explains it all very nicely.

But even then, working with my HD stills in SD I could never, ever see any aliasing problems using Vegas's internal preview monitors as they are always field merged (aka weave). That's all Vegas can do as the refresh rate of the LCD displays used on a PC is typically 60 or 75 Hz. Could it be that some of these HD LCD and plasma TVs are really displaying interlaced, I can't think of any reason why they couldn't be refreshing the display at the video's frame rate. If so then the problem isn't de-interlacing the de-interlaced, it's that it's NOT de-interlacing. It's displaying the two fields from the 25PsF, 40mS apart.

Could it be that some of these HD LCD and plasma TVs are really displaying interlaced, I can't think of any reason why they couldn't be refreshing the display at the video's frame rate. If so then the problem isn't de-interlacing the de-interlaced, it's that it's NOT de-interlacing. It's displaying the two fields from the 25PsF, 40mS apart.

Your theory is tempting, but how will you explain that when played from VLC, the bobbing option makes my 25PsF clips twitter just like they do when fed from camera viia component?

That I cannot explain. By my understanding 'bob' is simply interpolating one field, it might be doing something more complex than just line doubling. Also if you're watching it on anything connected to a PC there could possibly be something going on between the refresh rate of the display and the frame rate. I've see frames torn in half by this so maybe, just maybe that has some bearing on the problem.

When I get a chance I'll generate some HD test patterns using Vegas and see how they display.

Looks like 1080/25p is not here yet -- or not coming. I found these comments:

"HD DVD discs containing high definition content at a field rate of 50Hz or a frame rate of 25Hz cannot be played on HD-XE1 without a firmware update. Firmware update is expected in the future."

"Rightly or wrongly, this whole area is IMO being driven not by the broadcasters, not by the drama producers, but Hollywood. There is a major push for all the hollywood content to be delivered anywhere in the world in HD at 24p. Major political battle, broadcasters in 50 land are not happy, but Hollywood does not like the just speed it up to 25p with the Resulting audio issues. This has driven the HD display device spec to mandate that all the devices need to support 60 based support. Where people want this to go is just as now in SD you have 100hz tv's to eventually get to 120 displays. Canal for instance in Europe is going to deliver all its HD dvd's at 24p."

It looks like 720p is not going to be much used, either.

In last month's HDV@Work I talk about the push to "Full HD." The world is going to 1920x1080/24p/50p/60p. From cameras through HDTV. In addition, the move is 24p displayed AT 24p or 48P or 72P -- no pulldown.


So it looks like the only way to show 25p is via a computer and VLC. Given how good BLEND and MEAN look -- this almost solves the problem. Unless you want to use your HDV camcorder to play your videos. Then you'll need to cut V. flicker in your NLE.

But that means you need to find a way to get 25PsF out of your NLEs and into your V1 and to tape.

And a way to get 25PsF into your NLE. I had to convert 25p .m2t into Apple's AIC 1080p25 .mov -- or -- 1080p25 HDV .m2v to even get it into FCP.

Your theory is tempting, but how will you explain that when played from VLC, the bobbing option makes my 25PsF clips twitter just like they do when fed from camera viia component?

bob is called bob because the image bobs up and down. That's why it is disliked so much.

Looks like 1080/25p is not here yet -- or not coming. I found these comments:

"HD DVD discs containing high definition content at a field rate of 50Hz or a frame rate of 25Hz cannot be played on HD-XE1 without a firmware update. Firmware update is expected in the future."

"Rightly or wrongly, this whole area is IMO being driven not by the broadcasters, not by the drama producers, but Hollywood. There is a major push for all the hollywood content to be delivered anywhere in the world in HD at 24p. Major political battle, broadcasters in 50 land are not happy, but Hollywood does not like the just speed it up to 25p with the Resulting audio issues. This has driven the HD display device spec to mandate that all the devices need to support 60 based support. Where people want this to go is just as now in SD you have 100hz tv's to eventually get to 120 displays. Canal for instance in Europe is going to deliver all its HD dvd's at 24p."

It looks like 720p is not going to be much used, either.

In last month's HDV@Work I talk about the push to "Full HD." The world is going to 1920x1080/24p/50p/60p. From cameras through HDTV. In addition, the move is 24p displayed AT 24p or 48P or 72P -- no pulldown.


So it looks like the only way to show 25p is via a computer and VLC. Given how good BLEND and MEAN look -- this almost solves the problem. Unless you want to use your HDV camcorder to play your videos. Then you'll need to cut V. flicker in your NLE.

But that means you need to find a way to get 25PsF out of your NLEs and into your V1 and to tape.

And a way to get 25PsF into your NLE. I had to convert 25p .m2t into Apple's AIC 1080p25 .mov -- or -- 1080p25 HDV .m2v to even get it into FCP.

Yeah... This would explain the lack of ANY 25p template even in the newest version of Sony's own Vegas. But considering one would re-compress his 25PsF material anyway, perhaps the solution would be to encode them into 24p in order to deliver on a Blu-Ray or HD DVD? Any problems here?

Yeah... This would explain the lack of ANY 25p template even in the newest version of Sony's own Vegas. But considering one would re-compress his 25PsF material anyway, perhaps the solution would be to encode them into 24p in order to deliver on a Blu-Ray or HD DVD? Any problems here?

What is so difficult to understand? 25PsF is well understood in broadcasting. Why do you assume your problems with the V1 will be replicated by all Blu-ray and HD DVD players necessitating the bizarre and outrageous step of converting 25P to 24P? It would be madness.

A blu ray/HD DVD player will simply signal to your HDTV that the content is progressive so don't deinterlace. It would appear either the V1 does not output the desired signal or the TV/monitors you've connected it to don't acknowledge the signal from the V1 causing the deinterlacing errors.

Mikko answered this issue several posts ago. Perhaps the answer was too obvious?

TT

1) converted Piotr's test clip using MPEGStreamclip to Apple's 1080p25 HDV codec.

2) playing both original and converted in MPEGStreamclip one could see the line-twitter using S=7. I did this to check if the conversion might filter the original. It didn't.

3) imported the 1080p25 clip 4 times into 1080p25 FCP Sequence, added 3 levels of Flicker Filter, and made a 1080p25 HDV movie.

4) played movie in QTplayer via HDMI to my HDTV. There was no line-twitter. EVEN ON THE CLIP WITH NO FILTER.

5) Played Source clip and Sequence in FCP. Again -- no line-twitter on anything.

If I had a V1E and used FCP -- and I had never read about the V1E's "problems" -- I would see nothing wrong even if I used S=7!

So I used VLC to play the original clip. Very consistent results: if I turned on bob deinterlace, I had line-twitter except at S=3. If I used Blend or Mean, I did not even at S=7.

Then I remembered TT claiming he watched 25p without deinterlacing. I assumed he was using a CRT HDTV. He said he wasn't -- he was using VLC. So if he wasn't using deinterlace, that likely means he was running VLC with deinterlace DISABLED. So I switched to disabled and there was no line-twitter even at S=7.

VLC with deinterlace DISABLED plays just like FCP and the QTplayer -- there's no aliasing or line-twitter even with S=7.

THEN I REMEMBERED THAT the clip I had was a movie -- not original V1E video.

Piotr's test clip is 1080/25p. That means -- I assume -- that Premiere took the 2 fields within 50i and put them into 1 frame and changed the frame rate to 25 and set the P flag.

So it makes perfect sense that DISABLED is the correct way to play a 25p MOVIE. And, the QTplayer and FCP seem to do the same.

So the production cycle of 25PsF to 25P seems to fix the problem and there is no need -- if you are making a 25p MOVIE -- to use S=3.

----------------

But note something else -- how you play video determines what you see. Even with true 25p, I could make the problem come and go just by WHICH software I used and WHAT setting I used.

Piotr -- can you upload a 25p S=7 mode captured directly from the camera.

Looks like 1080/25p is not here yet -- or not coming. I found these comments:

"HD DVD discs containing high definition content at a field rate of 50Hz or a frame rate of 25Hz cannot be played on HD-XE1 without a firmware update. Firmware update is expected in the future."

"Rightly or wrongly, this whole area is IMO being driven not by the broadcasters, not by the drama producers, but Hollywood. There is a major push for all the hollywood content to be delivered anywhere in the world in HD at 24p. Major political battle, broadcasters in 50 land are not happy, but Hollywood does not like the just speed it up to 25p with the Resulting audio issues. This has driven the HD display device spec to mandate that all the devices need to support 60 based support. Where people want this to go is just as now in SD you have 100hz tv's to eventually get to 120 displays. Canal for instance in Europe is going to deliver all its HD dvd's at 24p."

It looks like 720p is not going to be much used, either.

In last month's HDV@Work I talk about the push to "Full HD." The world is going to 1920x1080/24p/50p/60p. From cameras through HDTV. In addition, the move is 24p displayed AT 24p or 48P or 72P -- no pulldown.


So it looks like the only way to show 25p is via a computer and VLC. Given how good BLEND and MEAN look -- this almost solves the problem. Unless you want to use your HDV camcorder to play your videos. Then you'll need to cut V. flicker in your NLE.

But that means you need to find a way to get 25PsF out of your NLEs and into your V1 and to tape.

And a way to get 25PsF into your NLE. I had to convert 25p .m2t into Apple's AIC 1080p25 .mov -- or -- 1080p25 HDV .m2v to even get it into FCP.

Want to know something funny, put a 24p HDCAM SR tape into a deck and you can quite happily play it out as...50i. Hollywood can send us whatever they want, we'll still be running it 4% faster.

And although Vegas doesn't have a 25p template I can quite easily render 1080 25p from the V1P's 25PsF.

And the interesting thing about BD and 1080p. Well HD DVD does do 1080p, they've tried using that as a selling point but Sony themselves keep say it's all smoke and mirrors stuff as it all ends up the same when it's displayed.

As for the rest of the comments about display devices affecting how an image look, well duh. Just because it looks fine on some devices doesn't mean there's no fault in what being fed to the device that shows a problem, usually the reverse in fact.

Get the field order reversed with 50i and it still looks fine on LCDs, are you suggesting the fault is in our broadcast CRTs?
Get one channel of dual mono audio out of phase and it still sounds OK on the stereo monitors but totally vanishes on my mono TV. Ah I get it, it's there's nothing wrong with my audio just the silly viewer for having a mono TV, silly them.

So far the most credible explaination of where the problems lies was a deduction from a comment by Adam Wilt about Sony allowing too much res compared to Canon at the expense of aliasing. Possibly the OLPF is set too high. Why would Sony do that, well this camera takes still through the same lens and imagers, perhaps they didn't want to loose res when stills were being taken.

Yeah... This would explain the lack of ANY 25p template even in the newest version of Sony's own Vegas. But considering one would re-compress his 25PsF material anyway, perhaps the solution would be to encode them into 24p in order to deliver on a Blu-Ray or HD DVD? Any problems here?


Vegas doesn't have a 25p template simply because one wasn't made. If you have the VASST GearShift tool, you *do* have a 25p template, as we install one. In other words, just make one. As Bob mentioned, all that you need is there.
Speaking of Bob, great post! Looking forward to seeing you at NAB and this winter in Oz.

Douglas, of course I have made my own 25p templates in Vegas (actually the clips I'm posting to this thread were all rendered in Vegas, not in Premiere as Steve is assuming). But the fact is such a template has NOT been included with the system (the "Blue Print" ones are only 50i, 60i and 24p - just like in the Blu-Ray Disk specification). And this cannot be just a coincidence or ommision, IMO.

Piotr -- can you upload a 25p S=7 mode captured directly from the camera.
Steve, I'm uploading the clips I used so far in Vegas compilations I posted earlier, only this time as raw m2t files (I'm limited in chosing the right ones by the 100 MB upload size per file maximum, and I'm still lacking an utility that would allow me trimming m2t's without re-rendering - does anyone know such a tool?).

Anyway, here is the first one:

http://rapidshare.com/files/19374454/yard_prog_shrp_8-2.m2t (sharpness 8)

more are coming (with sharpness at 10 and 12).

http://rapidshare.com/files/19379721/yard_prog_shrp_10.m2t
http://rapidshare.com/files/19393514/yard_prog_shrp_12.m2t

What you've done is the same as I do with high res still for SD, when I say high res I'm talking about images from 10M pixel DSLRs. Thing is how this problem can only happen when you downscale, you need a frequency higher than the sample clock in the source to bring it on. I could probably dig up a post from one of the Sony engineers about SinC functions etc, etc.

Just to further expand that point, the other way HD stills are usually handled is to batch convert them in PS to target res, when you drop that onto a FCP or Vegas T/L there's no problem with line twitter.

So this opens the question as to just where this is happening, given that we're dealing with HD and a camera with a vertical res of say 800 something is fishy. The camera would have to have better V res than 1000 to bring this on I think. Of course if your display device is less than 1080 then this explains it all very nicely.

But even then, working with my HD stills in SD I could never, ever see any aliasing problems using Vegas's internal preview monitors as they are always field merged (aka weave). That's all Vegas can do as the refresh rate of the LCD displays used on a PC is typically 60 or 75 Hz. Could it be that some of these HD LCD and plasma TVs are really displaying interlaced, I can't think of any reason why they couldn't be refreshing the display at the video's frame rate. If so then the problem isn't de-interlacing the de-interlaced, it's that it's NOT de-interlacing. It's displaying the two fields from the 25PsF, 40mS apart.

Bob, do you know how the 0.001 vertical Gaussian Blur in Vegas translates into the horizontal lines number reduction? What does this number really mean? Sorry for a naive question, but I don't know the theory behind it and would like to adopt some technique of slightly reducing v-rez without spoiling the h-rez unnecessarily.

Also, the peculiarities of the V1E's progressive mode (in how aliasing prone it is) have forced me to discover various Vegas settings and tricks that I never paid attention to before, as with the Canon A1 they didn't make much difference. Firstly, you can create a new project using the usual 1080/50i template with upper field first, but changing deiterlace mode to "blend fields". Conversely, you can use the "None" (progressive scan) field order, and - even though it doesn't sound logical - also choose "blend fields" as Deinterlace method.

Secondly, you can add a slight vertical Gaussian Blur (though even the smallest possible of 0.001 results in too much softening IMO), or set the option "reduce interlace flicker" in the clips properties, which seems to do the trick.

Then, the rendering of a 1080/25p output MPEG-2 file. I must say I don't quite understand why we have the options of deinterlacing methods when creating a new project, but NOT when creating progressive file from an interlaced source; in the "render as" template you can only set Fieldd order (upper first, lower first, or progressive). Hmmm.

Add to it the various options at playback time (like using Blend in VLC), and you get a headache when trying to established an optimal workflow for the 25PfS of the V1E. It'd be much easier if a more comprehensive description of all the Vegas options involved was available, because the manual and help system don't seem to be very specific.

Here a kind request to Steve and DSE: could you please help us the PAL V1 users with the above? TIA!

Want to know something funny, put a 24p HDCAM SR tape into a deck and you can quite happily play it out as...50i. Hollywood can send us whatever they want, we'll still be running it 4% faster.

That has nothing to do with anything. You won't be making discs. The movie industry will -- under very tight control. If they choose 24p and the players only play 24p -- just exactly what are you going to do about?


"And the interesting thing about BD and 1080p. Well HD DVD does do 1080p"

HD DVD supports 1080/50P and 1080/60P output. The high-end Toshiba cannot even do 1080/24P output let alone 108025P output. In terms of recording, only 24p, 50i, and 50i are supported.


", they've tried using that as a selling point but Sony themselves keep say it's all smoke and mirrors stuff as it all ends up the same when it's displayed."

Sony can say that about 24p because you'll remember I posted earlier that 24p was the only frame-rate that POTENTIALLY could be perfectly deinterlaced in your HDTV. So yes, 1080i60 can carry 24p. Unfortunately, tests indicate it often does work pefectly -- which is why the demand for 60P output -- and for 24p OUPUT.


"Just because it looks fine on some devices doesn't mean there's no fault in what being fed to the device that shows a problem, usually the reverse in fact."

An obviously true statement. So obvious that I see no point to it the context of this discussion. The goal NOW is to find a way to produce P movies from 25p V1E video that look good. If that can be done, the question of what to blame becomes moot.

But the fact is that BLEND eliminates line twitter completely - even when I send the video from VLC through component, and even at 12 sharpness setting! The image loses some resolution, but is still sharper than Canon's and almost equally quiet in terms of aliasing.

Now, I'd appreciated it very much if somebody told be how to implement the same effect in Vegas. Which filter should I be using, so that the H-rez is intact? I could then re-encode some of my test shots, print them back to tape and ruch to the Sony dealer to check it on a Bravia HDTV again.. But I'm running short of time!

I have just discovered that the same clips in 25PsF (withs sharpness up to 120 that required BLEND in VLC to be watchable at all (otherwise showing awfull line twitter), do play almost quite clean from Nero ShowTime 7, with deinterlacing off!

But the fact is such a template has NOT been included with the system (the "Blue Print" ones are only 50i, 60i and 24p - just like in the Blu-Ray Disk specification). And this cannot be just a coincidence or ommision, IMO.

I'm realizing that 25p in the HD world is not exactly a standard format. :)

The progressive formats are 720p50 and 720p60 and 1080p24. The interlace formats are: 1060i50 and 1080i60.

You can shoot 720p25, 720p30, and 1080p25 but most NLEs do not support anything but 720p30 and 1080p25.

At this point in time -- the two hidef DVD formats support only: 1080p24, 720p60, and 1080i60. Other than the crazy expensive BD software, software supports the burning of only 720p60 and 1080i60.

I have burned 720p30 by tricking the software into thinking it was 720p60. I have yet to try 24p with pulldown within 720p60 and 1080i60.

Which means you can make 1080p25 and play it with VLC -- or you can try exporting your 25p timeline as 1080i50. This should be able to be burned to red laser discs and played on a hidef DVD. However, because the software is all written in R60 areas, and mostly for use by folks burning copies of HDTV programs, it may not yet support 1080i50.

Thank you for the S=8.

Playing original with VLC/MPEGstream and FCP clip shows bad line-twitter. After making a 1080p25 HDV movie and playing using QTplayer -- even the original clip (no filter) looks very good. The filter helps, but not much.

Upload S=5 and S= 7 -- these may be safer bets.

Thank you for the S=8. I'm going to run it through FCP.

Steve I also posted with s=10 and s=12. Even those play back perfectly from Nero Showtime! No need to blend, or deinterlace at all!

Heck, I reallly don't understand why such a good video cannot be played on a Sony Bravia through state-of-the-art interface (HDMI) without line twittering so horrible that it is unwatchable. If only I could be certain that a method can be worked out of creating HD DVD and / or Blu-Ray disks that would play as clean as those software players, I would already be able to make up my mind and stay with the V1...

Heck, I reallly don't understand why such a good video cannot be played on a Sony Bravia through state-of-the-art interface (HDMI) without line twittering so horrible that it is unwatchable.
Now that I have an original .m2t clip I can confirm what I previously posted.

1) You can use S=8 which is very nicely detailed. (A bit too much -- I would use 6 or 7.) There is NO need to set S=3. The S=3 recommendation was based on viewing the camera output and/or using VLC set to bob interlace.

2) Using VLC set to NO deinterlace which is correct for PsF -- the video is fine. Even when played thru HDMI to an HDTV.

3) Working with FCP there is line twitter in the tiny FCP windows. When you connect the HDMI and the video is played thru HDMI to an HDTV -- it is fine.

4) you can make an 1080p25 HDV movie or a 1080i50 movie and play with the QTplayer thru HDMI to an HDTV -- both are fine.

Bottom line -- in actual production the V1 works perfectly with 25p at S=8. And, any movie one makes also looks fine.

--------------

That leaves 2 open questions:

1) why does S=8 look so bad connected when played from the camcorder direct to a monitor. I see only 2 possibilities:

a) The crap is actually in the V1 recording.

b) The monitor is creating the crap.

The experiments we have done -- and everyone is free to try them -- says the crap appears and disappears based on the de-interlace setting in VLC. Bob would MIGHT claim the crap is in the recording and the VLC setting only changes whether we show it or filter it out. I MIGHT claim the crap is NOT in the recording and the VLC setting only changes whether we create it or show the V1 video correctly.

I don't think we'll easily prove which is correct.

The question I think we can answer is -- can the V1 be used to make movies. With FCP and playing from a computer to an HDTV, the answer is yes. It seems you can do the same with Vegas, so you answer is double yes.

So now the question becomes how will you "record" your production IN HD. Here the answers are:

1) you cannot now record 1080p25 to any hidef disc. You may never be able to do it if players don't support it.

2) you could convert to 24p.

3) you could export to 1080i50 and burn it. I can help you with this.

4) you could export it back to the camera. This is the test you can do the quickest. You can't print-to-tape from a 25p timeline. You would need to export a 50i movie, import it to a 50i timeline, and print-to-tape the 50i timeline. The V1 can only record 50i.

Have you done this?

Have you tried playing this on a Bravia from the V1.

I'll stand corrected, but it seems to me that 25P is a useless format as it can only be viewed by someone with a V1P/E and a computer to a HDTV.
You can only use the V1P to view 25P shot from the camera via a NLE through HDMI to a HDTV.
There is no way it can be played as a rendered movie with either Bluray or HDDVD.
You cannot print to tape to store an edited movie.
Converting to interlaced seems to defeat the purpose of having progressive.
As well converting to 24P is desperation, why own a PAL progressive camera in the first place.
If anyone can tell me I have got it wrong I would be glad to hear
Michael.

Bob, do you know how the 0.001 vertical Gaussian Blur in Vegas translates into the horizontal lines number reduction? What does this number really mean? Sorry for a naive question, but I don't know the theory behind it and would like to adopt some technique of slightly reducing v-rez without spoiling the h-rez unnecessarily.

Also, the peculiarities of the V1E's progressive mode (in how aliasing prone it is) have forced me to discover various Vegas settings and tricks that I never paid attention to before, as with the Canon A1 they didn't make much difference. Firstly, you can create a new project using the usual 1080/50i template with upper field first, but changing deiterlace mode to "blend fields". Conversely, you can use the "None" (progressive scan) field order, and - even though it doesn't sound logical - also choose "blend fields" as Deinterlace method.

Secondly, you can add a slight vertical Gaussian Blur (though even the smallest possible of 0.001 results in too much softening IMO), or set the option "reduce interlace flicker" in the clips properties, which seems to do the trick.

Then, the rendering of a 1080/25p output MPEG-2 file. I must say I don't quite understand why we have the options of deinterlacing methods when creating a new project, but NOT when creating progressive file from an interlaced source; in the "render as" template you can only set Fieldd order (upper first, lower first, or progressive). Hmmm.

Add to it the various options at playback time (like using Blend in VLC), and you get a headache when trying to established an optimal workflow for the 25PfS of the V1E. It'd be much easier if a more comprehensive description of all the Vegas options involved was available, because the manual and help system don't seem to be very specific.

Here a kind request to Steve and DSE: could you please help us the PAL V1 users with the above? TIA!


As to how much 0.001 is I have not a clue and this is something about MANY of the FX parameters in Vegas I've had the odd complaint about over the years, there's all sort of odd numbers that bear no relationship to anything or are at best cryptic, adding some units of measure would be great.

The de-interlace method is very important when rescaling and there's no optimal setting. It's important because half the resolution is in one field and half in the other. The lines may not line up so to preserve resolution and to prevent hideous aliasing (think large gear teeth, not fine combing) you need to specify a method. Blend works best for low motion, interpolate for high motion. The value specified in the project de-interlace method works accross the entire project, including rendering. As you can hopefully see even when going from 50i to 50i it has a major impact if any rescaling is taking place e.g. rendering from HDV to SD.

I don't know exactly what Reduce Interlace Flicker does exactly, again it would be good to get an explaination but none has been forthcoming. It would seem to force some kind of line averaging.

One thing you can do with Vegas that might help workout just what your display is doing is to deliberately reverse the field order, easy enough to do, just RClick the media and change the field order and render out.
On a true progressive display it shouldn't matter, if the Bravia is attempting to display fields motion should become a mess, think Joe Cocker on hot coals.

As to why there's no 25p template, well the answer I got was because there's no tape device that you can print that to. As we know you can create your own template of course.

"Just because it looks fine on some devices doesn't mean there's no fault in what being fed to the device that shows a problem, usually the reverse in fact."

An obviously true statement. So obvious that I see no point to it the context of this discussion. The goal NOW is to find a way to produce P movies from 25p V1E video that look good. If that can be done, the question of what to blame becomes moot.

I very much agree with this, in the end we have to deliver the best possible looking content to the client and if there's something wrong with how it looks they're not going to care what caused it, in their eyes it's our fault!

Of course the goal is to find a way to deliver the best possible looking 25p by finding a way to do this. Only reason I keep pursuing the "what's causing it aspect" is not to lay blame as much as by understanding the processes involved we can better decide how to deal with it.

My suggestions at this stage would be pretty much in line with what you've been saying, probably reducing Sharpness in the camera is going to be the simplest approach (the GB FX in Vegas is a render hog). If you want more control then go with either GB in Vegas or the Reduce Interlace Flicker properties switch. I'm certain other NLEs have suitable FXs.

If you're truly going for a film out then ignore the problem, get as much sharpness on the tape as possible.

BTW, I checked out our V1P today, PP1 (Cinema) sets Sharpness to 5 and PP2 (Portrait) sets it to 7 but ups the Skin Detail Level, is this the same in the V1U?

I suspect that if you're going for broadcast then you probably really need to do something. I suspect putting this 25PsF onto a HD CRT is really going to make the aliasing very obvious, the viewers might or might not see it but the guys doing tech checks on your content most likely will. I have a small CRT HD broadcast monitor, it'll be interesting to see how the 25PsF looks on that.

As an interesting aside, apart from dealing with 1,000s of hidef digital photos and their attendant aliasing problems when downscaled to SD in Vegas I've also done 5,000 slide scans at around 4K, none of them needed any treatment when downscaled for SD. It could be that these were taken with older cameras before the days of multicoated optics, it could be nature of film.

If anyone can tell me I have got it wrong I would be glad to hear.
Michael.

Toshiba has said -- see my earlier post -- that 25p playback will come "later" via a firmware update. Now I love HD DVD, but I expect BD to "win." So it's what Sony does that is key. If they only want 24p -- that's all you'll get.

So while I wouldn't say 25p will always be useless -- it is looking like it might be for awhile. Except if you WANT to play it from your computer. That really works well.

One thought I've had is that Sony Japan never planned a 25p version, but was convinced by Sony UK before IBC to do it. The first firmware could have been a botched attempt to have something to show at IBC. Think how quickly 25p was pulled. Then, just as quickly, they came-up with "new" firmware and the S=3 recommendation.

I very much agree with this, in the end we have to deliver the best possible looking content to the client and if there's something wrong with how it looks they're not going to care what caused it, in their eyes it's our fault!

Of course the goal is to find a way to deliver the best possible looking 25p by finding a way to do this. Only reason I keep pursuing the "what's causing it aspect" is not to lay blame as much as by understanding the processes involved we can better decide how to deal with it.

Likewise, I'm increasingly convinced there is something "different" about the V1E. I began by assuming nothing could be "different" about the E because in Sony's description of the V1's operation, much of it from Sony Japan in response to my questions, there was no place for there to be a difference.

Now that I think I know what the difference may be -- I'm far more open to seeing the issue as "in" the V1E. However, before I go further down this path -- I've sent another list of questions to Japan about the MPEG-2 flags.

Meantime, I've done a brute force 1080/25p to 1080/60i export via Compressor. I'll make an HD DVD. If it plays, I want to see if the line-twitter is gone or returns.

3) you could export to 1080i50 and burn it. I can help you with this.

4) you could export it back to the camera. This is the test you can do the quickest. You can't print-to-tape from a 25p timeline. You would need to export a 50i movie, import it to a 50i timeline, and print-to-tape the 50i timeline. The V1 can only record 50i.

Have you done this?

Have you tried playing this on a Bravia from the V1.

Steve,

ad 3) above: I'm not quite clear on this; what's the point in exporting 25p to 50i rather than making 50i in the first place (or what you mean is just for testing purposes)

ad 4) I'll be printing back to tape today. So, the workflow shuld be:
- create a 1080/50i project and import my 25p clips
- render as 1080/50i
-import the MPEG-2 movie created above back to the TL
- print it to tape from TL

Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere in the above workflow. Thanks!

Likewise, I'm increasingly convinced there is something "different" about the V1E. I began by assuming nothing could be "different" about the E because in Sony's description of the V1's operation, much of it from Sony Japan in response to my questions, there was no place for there to be a difference.

Now that I think I know what the difference may be -- I'm far more open to seeing the issue as "in" the V1E. However, before I go further down this path -- I've sent another list of questions to Japan about the MPEG-2 flags.

Meantime, I've done a brute force 1080/25p to 1080/60i export via Compressor. I'll make an HD DVD. If it plays, I want to see if the line-twitter is gone or returns.

At some point in time I'm planning to rent a F350, only because I want to try out XDCAM in Vegas and because I have a client I do post work for who has a major shoot coming up and I've (gulp) convinced him that camera would be ideal for the project.

I'd be interesting to see how the 25p from the F350 compares with the 25p from the V1P/E/C. Anyone know if the F350 users are having similar issues, I check the XDCAM fora from time to time and I've not noticed any.

For what it's worth I do know that this is not the only camera to have 'teething' problems, the JVC HD100 had it's share although they were real and the HVX200 had a few that weren't real and from memory how users were viewing the footage was the main cause of their concerns.

Coming back to the topic, I have just printed back to tape (BTW, when you choose in Vegas to print a ready file rather than from the time line, it is possible to print both I and P files). When played back from the camera via component, the twitter is there like in the original.

However, I noticed that when you play back from camera (live or from tape) using compressed i.link (firewire), the twitter is gone - just like when playing back from a software player (eg. VLC).

Bottom line: the heavy line twitter is only present when playing back from camera using uncompressed format (from HDMI or Component).

I don't think there is any point in further testing various sharpness settings, as they can only mask (when low) or emphasize (when high) the problem, which is somewhere else. All comments welcome!

VLC does line twitter for about every video clip when you use bob. Powerdvd and/or nvidias own bob-deinterlacers do a way better job than vlc.

Line twitter in FCP can be eliminated (if working with progressive) by changing the fields in project settings to none.

Steve, I'm not quite clear on this; what's the point in exporting 25p to 50i rather than making 50i in the first place (or what you mean is just for testing purposes)

I want to be certain I've removed all trace of 25PsF and get to "true" 25p. Now you can add graphics and do FX in pure 25p.

WORKFLOW:

- create a 1080/25p project and import 25p clips
- add graphics and titles
- render as 1080/25p for VLC playback

I'm not sure how you can print a 25p Timeline to the V1? Can you simply print-to-tape from a 1080/p25 timeline? Will Vegas add the correct flags and convert it to PsF?

------------------

However, I noticed that when you play back from camera (live or from tape) using compressed i.link (firewire), the twitter is gone -- just like when playing back from a software player (eg. VLC).

Bottom line: the heavy line twitter is only present when playing back from camera using uncompressed format (from HDMI or Component).

HOW do you view the i.LINK signal? What do you feed the i.LINK signal into?

VLC does line twitter for about every video clip when you use bob. Powerdvd and/or nvidias own bob-deinterlacers do a way better job than vlc.

Line twitter in FCP can be eliminated (if working with progressive) by changing the fields in project settings to none.

I don't think these are OS X: Powerdvd and/or nvidias own bob-deinterlacers

"However, I noticed that when you play back from camera (live or from tape) using compressed i.link (firewire), the twitter is gone -- just like when playing back from a software player (eg. VLC).

Bottom line: the heavy line twitter is only present when playing back from camera using uncompressed format (from HDMI or Component)."

HOW do you view the i.LINK signal? What do you feed the i.LINK signal into?

Steve, simply with VLC streaming from Capture Device (uses DirecDraw). NO line twitter - just like with captured files. Now, what do you make out of this?!!

I want to be certain I've removed all trace of 25PsF and get to "true" 25p. Now you can add graphics and do FX in pure 25p.

WORKFLOW:

- create a 1080/25p project and import 25p clips
- add graphics and titles
- render as 1080/25p for VLC playback

I'm not sure how you can print a 25p Timeline to the V1? Can you simply print-to-tape from a 1080/p25 timeline? Will Vegas add the correct flags and convert it to PsF?



As I pointed out before, here's the problem. Vegas cannot print to tape 25PsF the same as the camera records. That's straight from the Vegas engineers. Also there's no way to PTT 25p as per Canon either. And here to some extent lies the real problemo, one that near drove me nuts a while ago. In terms of aliasing problems it don't matter much anyways, at least not with 25p / 50i.

Simple example of the problem. Take an odd field of black and an even field of white. Merge them into a single frame, duplicate and render out as 25p. You've now got a frame with 1080 line of V res. It'll look fine on a real 25p display but all you get on a 50i display is a blinking screen. Thing is for 50i the max V res is half what it is for 25p otherwise line twitter will get you. Doesn't matter if the source is 25p or 50i, once it's displayed as 50i you have the problem.

Hope this makes sense.