I would like to have some more feedback regarding a problem with the 'HD DOWN-CONV' (HDV to DV downconvert) option, available the XH A1's VCR mode.

In both HDV mode as DV mode our XH A1 delivers perfect footage. No issues. This is a magnificent camera, delivering high end video output, no discussion.

However, in the downconvert option - on top of the frames - there's a flickering black line. It's not really against the frame border, but a few lines lower.

Probably only one interlacing field is affected by this phenomenon, the second isn't (...not easy to find out, but it looks like that). With some effort this also viewable on the camera displays, but surely during the capturing process seen on the computer and, and evidently stored in the captured files.

We did try several NLE's and capture software, (very different) computers, firewire cables: this is not a 'computer issue', but the camera generating something funny, however, the phenomenon only appears when the firewire cable is plugged in

First I thought this camera was defectuous or more likely, there was some kind of software/calibration issue.

After an extremely tedious helpdesk discussion process with Canon support, and after involving a third party company executing the repairs for them, the decision was taken to exchange this camera with a new one. Out of 'commercial reasons', because according to them the original camera was entirely within spec (so in fact, telling me that I've got bad eyes).

Guess what... this XH A1 is showing the same problem, in a completely identical way. So this seems to be a more generic isse.

Are there other people out experiencing the same?

Note: this is a PAL version of the XH A1.

I have exactly the same problem with my A1. You don't see it on a monitor, since it's in the overscan area, but when looking at footage in the Premiere Pro capture window or in Windows Media Player or other viewers, it is very apparent. It only happens with HDV to SD in-camera downconverts. There is no difference with 25F or 50i.

For what it's worth, the HV10 does exactly the same thing with its downconverted footage. I won't post any clips, but it is just the same as Dirk describes.

Surely this is not just a Belgian thing?


Bill Engeler
www.wsfilm.be

I have exactly the same problem with my A1. You don't see it on a monitor, since it's in the overscan area, but when looking at footage in the Premiere Pro capture window or in Windows Media Player or other viewers, it is very apparent. It only happens with HDV to SD in-camera downconverts. There is no difference with 25F or 50i.

Happy to hear I'm not the only one having bad eyes, as Canon tried to tell me in a polite way...

For what it's worth, the HV10 does exactly the same thing with its downconverted footage. I won't post any clips, but it is just the same as Dirk describes.

So very likely, this is a software bug. The just took the HV10 code and migrated it to the A1.

Surely this is not just a Belgian thing?

I'm pretty sure it isn't. The second camera was sent from Amsterdam, where Canon seems to keep the stock for Europe. Reason why I posted this message: there must be more people seeing the same issue, I hope Canon reads this.


In general: ofcourse, there's a perfect workaround. But a major option like this should work since it is an important time-saver, and as this is perfectly possible with other brands.

Overall, I was really very disappointed by the Canon helpdesk. What is a excellent concept worth if you fail to deliver any professional support?
At the end of the day, I'm still facing the same problem.

I hope that one day some kind of firmware update will fix the problem. But this is not a certainty, ofcourse.

I've reported the problem to Canon's helpdesk via email. We can only hope that someone takes some action. There really isn't professional-level support for these cameras. I don't mean to knock Canon - I suppose this helps them to charge a relatively low price for the camera. It is an extremely competitive industry.

The first-level technicians are generalists, and really know next to nothing about these cameras. Second-level, much the same. You need to be passed on to the higher levels to get someone who even understands many of these problems, and it takes time and persistence to get there. Even the repair technicians at the service centres only know what Canon Inc. in Japan deem that they need to know.

As far as firmware updates go, this all comes from Japan. I'm sure if Japan was PAL, this would have been solved last year. As it is, I hope I don't have to work around this too much longer, as down-converting in the camera is my preferred workflow for now. It's a great camera.

Thanks, Bill, for your response.

I went up to the second level of Canon support, and the lady I spoke probably didn't even know how the camera looked like. It was a non-Canon company ETB that had to 'repair' the defectuous camera (what a joke). I suppose that the idea to exchange the camera was due to the fact they didn't understand the problem at all. If anyone from Canon would have forwarded me a 'client survey', the score would have been bad.

I personnally disliked Canon pretty much, because of this type of problems, I'd heard from other people a few times before.

However this concept is at indeed a very attractive price level... but even within these stretched competition circumstances, I'm not really understanding Canon's standpoint.

For this type of equipment people are prepared to pay an additional fee to get a 'real' support comparable to Sony's Silver Support. But it wasn't even possible with Canon. They aren't exactly a cheap China brand, so what are the pro guys doing with a defectuous EOSD1s?

Also the fact that PAL is maybe a less massive market then NTSC doesn't seem to be a reason for me to provide a worse service, and neglect our complaints. If Canon wants to be present with HDV-products on the European market, they need to serve us as good as anyone else, also regarding the applied firmware. Doesn't Europe show up as a big lump in their quarter results as well?

This is the first time I was seduced to buy anything from Canon, and even though the A1 is an excellent camera, probably even the best in this market corner, I'm disappointed, I would hesitate to do the same again.

Because this problem is after all a real minor issue, but I wouldn't know what happens if anything serious goes wrong. One should lose his confidence for less than that.

Hello,

I´ve got the same problem! Can Canon service fix this problem now?
Are there any PAL Cams that don´t have this Problem?

THX for your help

same problem here...

Is there anyone with a PAL model that doesn´t has this Problem????

I've just noticed it on mine. PAL version. Could someone inform Canon about it? Is it in-camera software problem or what?

Same here too, although I do not get the problem down-converting to play back on my sd television, just on my computer screen in windows media/vlc player e.t.c.

many MANY cameras have a scan line somewhere.. on the DVX100 its non existant, on the Sony PD150 in DVCam mode, you might notice a green bar on the left hand side running along the left edge (on the edge itself)
My old MX500 has a line running along teh right hand side ...

i dotn knwo what the issue is considering this is in the overscan area.. unless of course yoru runnign this through a projector.. only then will there be no bezel to cover this anomoly

many MANY cameras have a scan line somewhere.. on the DVX100 its non existant, on the Sony PD150 in DVCam mode, you might notice a green bar on the left hand side running along the left edge (on the edge itself)
My old MX500 has a line running along teh right hand side ...

i dotn knwo what the issue is considering this is in the overscan area.. unless of course yoru runnign this through a projector.. only then will there be no bezel to cover this anomoly

It´s 16:9 so it´s ALWAYS visible!!! (on a normal TV and on the Computer)

but in a widescreen tv with a bezel it isnt right...
hmmm..
maybe a PAL downconvert resolution issue... considering weve got 576 lines compared to NTSC 480... more than likely this is the case

has anyone tried converting in the NLE?

No problem when converting in NLE. Only with in-camera downconversion.

Just discovered it also... incredible! Anyone has got any decent answer from Canon?

I can now say that this problem exists with the A1, the HV10 and the HV20. There is something with the conversion system that Canon uses with all these PAL cameras that appears to generate this.

I had a frustrating time trying to report this to Canon. After 3 emails, it seemed I was back to the beginning, and since then have heard nothing from them. It doesn't appear to be a problem that Canon Europe can solve, but perhaps if everybody contacts Canon, they might pass the complaints on to Japan, and something might get done on a higher level.

Not a solution but i find an 8 pixel top and bottom crop at export /final encoding stage is easiest way to deal with it (certainly a lot faster than transcoding from HD to DV in the NLE)

(certainly a lot faster than transcoding from HD to DV in the NLE)

And also a lot faster than getting any kind of response from Canon. Their customer PR seems to be non-existent.

I just received an email from Canon Germany Helpdesk:

"Sehr geehrte Kundin,
Sehr geehrter Kunde,


vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage zur XH-A1.

Da Softwareplayer mehr Zeilen anzeigen als Fernseher passiert es sehr oft, dass die sog. Systemezeilen am PC dargestellt werden.

Wenn Sie den Film jedoch auf DVD brennen und diesen anschließend auf dem Fernseher wiedergeben sollten diese Systemzeilen nicht mehr angezeigt werden.

Probieren Sie es aus.


Mit freundlichen Grüssen,

Canon Support Centre"

As if I didn´t know about overscan...tsss just imagine your camcorder producing a pink frame outside the action safe area, HAHAHA Canon would claim: "But you will not see a pink frame on a normal TV set"

I just answered them that when you watch the video letterboxed you can still see the black line...

I just got a reply to my second email, sorry for ze german ;)

"Sehr geehrte Kundin,
Sehr geehrter Kunde,


wie bereits in der vorhergegangenen Email beschrieben handelt es sich hierbei um System- bzw Rücklaufzeilen. Dabei ist unsere Vermutung, dass entweder der Film nicht korrekt skaliert oder der Fernseher nicht korrekt in der Amplitude eingestellt ist.

Wenn ein Film im Letterboxverfahren an einem 4:3-Fernseher angezeigt wird dann geschieht dies in einer Auflösung von 720 x 431 Zeilen. (Also es wird in der vertikalen Auflösung reduziert.)

Bei guter Videobearbeitungssoftware können Sie die Skalierung einstellen. Nehmen Sie dafür den o.g. Wert.

Wie bereits bekanntgegeben können wir, anhand Ihrer Beschreibungen, einen Gerätefehler ausschließen.


Mit freundlichen Grüssen,

Canon Support Centre"

Is that a Joke? Can anybody please comment on that?

this is totally rediciolous... i have this problem to (german pal version). the support telling me to burn the stuff to dvd and watching it on a tv isn't really a solution. first of all modern hdtv screens prove a true scan function which display the whole 720x576 range (as mine does) and secondly not everyone produces for a dvd release. in my case for a internet-show....

any news on this? maybe a firmware update? :(

Sorry for drudging up the past , but I have encountered the same thing in some of my footage and it was visible on a normal CRT TV 4:3. I initially thought it was an interlacing issue caused by my PAL HV 20 which I deck with. And the way it is sending through my progressive footage in an interlaced shell.
Due to this my NLEs' were giving a upper field dominance to the footage which I manually changed to none and made the same changes in the Pro Res Sequence in the time line in FCS. Which was getting me more palatable results.
I am total newb and didn't realise it was the down conversion which I was also applying in deck that was causing this.
I have often read that to down convert in cam is best practice , and to get to your output format as quickly as possible ( SD 16:9 Pal DVD) was also desirable hence my in camera down conversion.
Did a firmware upgrade come and fix this ?
Does this happen to both Progressive and interlaced footage?
As I said I am a newb feel free to correct me if my workflow ideas are all messed up lol

For what it's worth:
I own an NTSC A1 with PAL "upgrade",
and usually shoot HDV 25 frames ("PAL").
I downconvert using the Sony HVR-M15U deck
(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/430959-REG/Sony_HVRM15U_HVR_M15U_Desktop_HDV_VTR.html)
and everything works perfectly.
My two cents...

Vasco

I am using a NTSC XHA1 with Pal upgrade done on it. I recently shot a training video in HDV and down converted it to SD from the camera just to try it out . ( material was shot in 50i)

I burn it to a DVD and guess what ?

I don't see the line that you guys are talking about?

No flicking line for me here.

DVD is viewed on a normal CRT TV ( bought it in year 1999)

Sorry guys,

My mistake. I converted NTSC footage instead.

I tried and do a Pal footage. And I can tell you that there is a line here too. I saw it in my captured files in FCP.

I think it is the problem with the Pal system.

I own a NTSC camera and got a Pal upgrade done with Canon.

So this is surly a Pal problem when down converting using the camera. It is a software problem from Canon . As Vasco was able to down convert it using a Sony HVR-M15U deck or the rest of us was able to do it within our NLE without the black line.

I have been told to do the conversion in my editing program (Edius), not in the camera. Can't remember the reason givin but perhaps it's the same one that all of you are experiencing!

Just discovered it also... incredible! Anyone has got any decent answer from Canon? I was one of the first wave of XH A1 users in my country, back in November 2006. I encountered this problem very soon, tried a second camera in the same shop, which showed the same issue.

Then I send in the camera, and had a whole discussion with the Canon after sales services, and the third party repair service that works for Canon to fix problems. Nothing got solved, and my camera was 'within spec', discussion closed.

It surprises me that even in the new A1's, Canon didn't fix this issue. Very annoying when you want a quick conversion to PAL footage. I expected a firmware upgrade somewhere down the line to fix this type of issues, but it never came.

After all, post production is the only way to get to a decent downconvert.

I got this reply from Canon:

It has come to our attention that Canon Europa is aware of this and at
this time the only workaround, if you are creating content for the web,
is to slightly crop the image so the line does not show. If you are
creating content for TV, the line is outside the TV viewing area and is
not visible once displayed on a TV monitor.

The other workaround, as you have mentioned, is to down convert the file
using the computer instead of the camcorder.

A service notice may be released as soon as a resolution is found.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with your XH
A1.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Chris
Technical Support Representative

well at least they admit the error now. when i contacted canon last year they said there's nothing wrong. as for a fix: i doubt we'll ever see one... the camera's on the market now for nearly 2 years...