Of the European coutries, some have been late to make the V1E available (probably because their local Sony branches were aware of the 25p problems). In the UK and Poland, the camera was available last December already - and the early adopters ther (like myself, or Tony, or Zsolt) had to send theirs to Prime Support for fixing.

Now, do you know if in those other countries (like Germany) the V1E is already available, and if not, when is it expected to arrive? Thx.

Hello, sorry my english is not very good.

I've got my V1E in France at the beginning of december 2006
It is also affected by the 25p issue, and I'm now waiting for UPS taking and send it to Prime support.
Sony never called me to give the info, my dealer is not aware, so big thanks to this forum and especially Piotr, Tony and others... ( without "dvinfo.net" my V1 would stay unfixed!)
The poor resolution in 25P is very noticiable on my unit and I hope it will get better.
Be sure i'll tell you how is the 25p after fixing
Otherwise I'm very happy with my cam, I'll shoot watersports with it, so 25p is not very important to me.

I got an email from a UK shooter:

"my V1e came back last week with the firmware update and +3 sharpness is the recommended setting for 25p now by Sony UK and it works well with knee set to low, cinegamma 1, cinecolour on and blackstretch on.
The V1 is a classic cam, a joy to use and too my eyes gives a nicer image than my Z1."

No Steve I very seriously doubt I will be in the majority as I am one of the few people to actually know what I am looking at. You don't do the job I do for the clients I work for without being able appreciate an image.

I can't understand why you seem so pleased to be backing a camera that doesn't fulfil its marketing promise. This only stores up trouble for future product development. If Sony think they can get away with the oil paint effect no what will they try and get away with next time?

If there wasn't a problem Sony wouldn't have given me a full refund. Would they? Thank you Sony I was very happy to get my cash back.

BTW the V1 might produce a better image than the Z1 but it absolutely cannot live with a properly set up XH-A1. I could put several posts up showing how superior the resolution and compression is or how the CMOS latitude is a figment of someone's imagination compared to the XH-A1.

The biggest mistake I made was not conducting the demo thoroughly in order to better set up the XH-A1 and being swayed by the amount of Sony accessories I owned. I could have saved myself 2 months of wasted time.

It is only when one uses the camera for an extended period that one can really see how superior the XH-A1 is. It exceeds my expectations daily.

Cheers

TT

Hello, sorry my english is not very good.

I've got my V1E in France at the beginning of december 2006
It is also affected by the 25p issue, and I'm now waiting for UPS taking and send it to Prime support.
Sony never called me to give the info, my dealer is not aware, so big thanks to this forum and especially Piotr, Tony and others... ( without "dvinfo.net" my V1 would stay unfixed!)
The poor resolution in 25P is very noticiable on my unit and I hope it will get better.
Be sure i'll tell you how is the 25p after fixing
Otherwise I'm very happy with my cam, I'll shoot watersports with it, so 25p is not very important to me.

I wonder if the problem shows up with HDMI direct? Or is it a DSP to tape problem. Would be interesting since you can record direct through HDMI via BlackMagic Intensity. Limited use perhaps but still an alternative.

The oil paint effect only appears on tape recorded pictures, reading tape on TV or m2t file with PPro, AL 7.1, VLC ...
No trouble when I connect the cam ( in 25P mode) to LCD TV full HD as monitor by HDMI .
I don't have Intensity card.

Thank you Steve Mullen, the E-mail you've got sounds good to me!

Odile

You are quite wrong. The oil paint effect is on HDMI, component and taped output from the camera. It is a fundamental flaw with the camera. There is no escaping it.

I am not paid by Canon nor have I received a loaner camera from them. All my views are my own and can back up everything I have ever written with clips from the V1E.

TT

--no longer relevant to the thread--
[edit]

Now, do you know if in those other countries (like Germany) the V1E is already available, and if not, when is it expected to arrive? Thx.

Piotr

As an answer to your question.
A new batch of V1E has arrived in Switzerland, so I got mine 2 days ago.

I had some offers from Germany, they didn’t say "out of stock", but the price in Germany is to high, even with tax refund

volki

No Steve I very seriously doubt I will be in the majority as I am one of the few people to actually know what I am looking at. You don't do the job I do for the clients I work for without being able appreciate an image.

I can't understand why you seem so pleased to be backing a camera that doesn't fulfil its marketing promise. This only stores up trouble for future product development. If Sony think they can get away with the oil paint effect no what will they try and get away with next time?

If there wasn't a problem Sony wouldn't have given me a full refund. Would they? Thank you Sony I was very happy to get my cash back.

BTW the V1 might produce a better image than the Z1 but it absolutely cannot live with a properly set up XH-A1. I could put several posts up showing how superior the resolution and compression is or how the CMOS latitude is a figment of someone's imagination compared to the XH-A1.

The biggest mistake I made was not conducting the demo thoroughly in order to better set up the XH-A1 and being swayed by the amount of Sony accessories I owned. I could have saved myself 2 months of wasted time.

It is only when one uses the camera for an extended period that one can really see how superior the XH-A1 is. It exceeds my expectations daily.

Cheers

TT
if the v1 might produce a better image than a z1 but not live with the a1,why do lots of sites have brilliant sony clips like this fx-1 short film

http://www.thehdepot.com/demo1hi.wmv
please as you say you can show some a1 footage [wmv]will you send some for me to see,by the way i only have a humble fx-7.chris

I got an email from a UK shooter:

"my V1e came back last week with the firmware update and +3 sharpness is the recommended setting for 25p now by Sony UK and it works well with knee set to low, cinegamma 1, cinecolour on and blackstretch on. [edit]
The V1 is a classic cam, a joy to use and too my eyes gives a nicer image than my Z1."

Per similar requests from you regarding people with the oil paint effects, could your contact provide some properly shot footage in progressive and interlaced mode for comparisons? Thanks.

Odile

You are quite wrong. The oil paint effect is on HDMI, component and taped output from the camera. It is a fundamental flaw with the camera. There is no escaping it.

I am not paid by Canon nor have I received a loaner camera from them. All my views are my own and can back up everything I have ever written with clips from the V1E.

TT
Tony, please drop me an email?

Per similar requests from you regarding people with the oil paint effects, could your contact provide some properly shot footage in progressive and interlaced mode for comparisons? Thanks.

There are many people I receive emails from who will not post at dvinfo.

The fact that there has NEVER been a post of correctly shot V1U video with the artifact tells us there is no issue with the V1U.

One of my fields is statistics: I don't defend products -- but I will point out the statistical chance that a claim of a bug is true when so few report it. It looks like IF there is an issue -- it is a per-camera problem. Not unlikely given the number of units now in the field.

So, folks have to decide if they believe one person in the world has such good eyes he can see what others seem not to see. And, how much they can trust anyone who claims the same fault is in a camera (V1U) he has never used. And, who claims he knows "what's wrong" but won't say.

I have managed to shoot some really colorful clips of exotic birds and butterflies in Singapore yesterday. I dont even try to shoot in progressive, as I have very limited chances to view my takes on a proper monitor here.
I managed to convince an electronic store sales person to connect my V1E to a Pioneer 1080p 50" plasma.
In fact people stopped nearby to watch my video rather than looking at other TVs with the usual HD promo clips running on them. The results were amazing - unfortunately only in interlaced.
Maybe I will shoot a tape with p just for comparison, cannot risk more. The only thing I noticed, the cam is sensitive to CA in extreme contrast situations.

In interlaced I have not noticed any artifacts during the short viewing, apart from the CA I have mentioned above.

I will post clips once back home - a couple of weeks later.

Dear all,

I've started this thread without any hidden intention to revive the V1's flaw discussion. I already sort of accepted that the progressive mode is what it is; I am in a very comfortable situation of both options (Canon A1 or Sony V1) still open. Having tested the Canon really thoroughly, I'd like to give the Sony one more, final try. However, I'm not interested in testing a camera "fixed" by Prime Support; no thank you - there have been enough indications of them not treating the cameras with care and their owners (including myself) with respect. Instead, I'd like to check the performance of a brand new V1E as being produced NOW, because they're supposed to have the final version of firmware when leaving the factory. Unfortunately, my local dealer doesn't know when he will get a new batch, hence the question about availability in countries that were not the first to import the flawed series (like Germany).

If you want to know my opinion, the Canon is simply a great camera - the multitude of manual controls being a heaven for us, old guys who will never grow out of the boyish love for toys. However, there is a number of ergonomy aspects that make me still consider the V1. Frankly, the incident with the handle flap falling off (see my thread on the A1 forum) shuttered my faith in Canon's build quality, too.

Anyway, if the oil paint effect is really gone with the new V1E, I might settle with the Sony, after all. The line flicker and other artefacts that even the Prime Support admits are present (and require turning the sharpness down), I think I can live with. And Tony, I think it'd just be fair to all interested to add that you can't be sure ANYTHING was actually done with your camera during the "fix" attempt, hence the oil paint efect still present after you got it back. In any case, NOTHING was done to mine - that's what the Prime Support admitted when they called me recently. This is why I still hope the true fix that arrived only AFTER my (and probably Tony's) camera returned, has eliminated the 25p softness.

On the other hand, I'm very surprised (and even worried) by the lack of input from the "satisfied" V1 users on this forum (as well as all the others), as opposed to lots of positive and constructive response from those using the Canon. Steve, can you explain this?

Anyway, I hope next week I'll be able to give the V1 one more, final try - and who knows, perhaps I'll be changing details of my signature here...

Piotr,

The V1E I received two day's ago, has S/N 1'211'705.

"As Sony Europe is near my home and my dealer, the cam was still worm"

I have at the moment not the proper equipment to check, if the issue has been solved

volki

Thanks Max; the flawed cameras serials were 1210001-1211330 ((mine was 1210377). Hopefully a new batch will arrive in Poland, as well.

Piotr,

this is something new. How do you know the batch number of the affected cameras? It sounds as if a new batch was free of the oil paint issue. Where have you got this information?
Or do you think if the firmware is installed in the factory before shipping makes any difference? Please elaborate what makes you believe that?
If this is any reliable, I will consider replacing my V1E to another V1E.

Btw in interlaced the cam produces really good images.

Piotr,

this is something new. How do you know the batch number of the affected cameras? It sounds as if a new batch was free of the oil paint issue. Where have you got this information?
Or do you think if the firmware is installed in the factory before shipping makes any difference? Please elaborate what makes you believe that?
If this is any reliable, I will consider replacing my V1E to another V1E.

Btw in interlaced the cam produces really good images.
Zsolt,

The S/N range of the affected cameras was published half-offically on a reputable Dutch website: www.global-dvc.nl. Whether the new batch is free of the progressive softness is something I'd like to check myself, hence the anticipation of its arrival in Poland. The Prime Support is saying it is, while the "line flicker" can be dealt with by turning down the sharpness - but I'm sure you've also been written the same by them.

What is important is that the softness I still saw after my camera returned from servicing was simply the original softness it exhibited when purchased, as the Prime Support simply did NOT do anything with it. This clarification I only got later, after I already had returned the camera to my dealer. This is why I *suppose* Tony's unit exhibited the oil paint effect even after the "fix", because - just like mine - it *might* simply had not been fixed AT ALL.

All this speculation (and *nothing* more than that) has one very weak point, though: the NTSC units were never called back for servicing and always considered "fine" and "final", and yet we all saw the softness of the red shed's wall in 30p. This would inevitably indicate that the problem is hardware-related, and thus unfixable. Therefore, since now I know precisely what to look for, I guess my final test of a new V1E unit will be straightforward and simple: it either has no oil paint effect (and the line flicker can be minimized with compromizing sharpness), or it still is softer than interlaced, in which case I'm forgetting about switching back to the V1 once and for ever. Even with my A1 being broken, and out of service at the moment...

PS. Let's wait and see what Tony has to say about it! Tony, are you SURE they did anything with your camera? To my knowledge, the working fix was only available at Prime Support as of January 22th.

My V1E is back from Prime support. Fast job. It cames back after 2 days!

After a first quick view(only inside with rather low light) , it seems to me that "oil paint effect" is gone. The sharpness is the same both in 50i and 25p modes.
But as others told, horizontal lines ares still "flicking", and I have to set sharpness lower ( 3) to fully avoid it . Ans so, of course, the picture is less sharp!
Nethertheless, I'm happy with my 25p, it looks much better now.

Thanks for the feedback Odile! Please give us some more:) Especially about the oil paint effect; also which sharpness setting is a tolerable maximum with regards to the "line flicker".


I'll have a V1E for testing on Monday; will defiitely update you guys.

... the NTSC units were never called back for servicing and always considered "fine" and "final", and yet we all saw the softness of the red shed's wall in 30p. This would inevitably indicate that the problem is hardware-related, and thus unfixable.

The place where "softness" clearly shows is the wood texture on the railing. The same "softness" is how you can tell the images I posted apart -- which are also of wood texture.

Which means -- if we are talking about softness of very fine detail -- there may NOW be no difference between between products. Likewise, with very thin horizontal lines, there may NOW be no noise difference between between products.

However, none of this tells us the softness/noise is related to hardware. It could be the parameters set in the firmware. To eliminate softness, Sony could adjust the frequency response to pass more fine detail -- which, of course, means more noise because noise IS simply "bad" high-frequency detail. Conversly, to eliminate noise, Sony could adjust the frequency response to cut fine detail. But, the image will be softer. Exactly the same relationship is found with DNR.

Nevertheless, there is a point where the optimum BALANCE will be found for a camera. There are two BBC reports that clearly indicate that Sony sets NORMAL to be at this balance. According to the BBC graphs -- "4" fully eliminates EE, but also reduces fine detail. And, we've seen "9" adds way too much EE. Thus, the acceptable range seems to be 5 to 7 or 8.

IMHO, Sony has defined the settings in Japan to provide the best overall balance. Unless you have more test equipment than Sony, it seems very risky to venture far from these.

One also needs to look at the video a generation or two down to see what setting is really correct. Are you going to film? To HD DVD? To Beta SP? To DV? To HDCAM? To DVCPRO HD? To DVD? Transfer to each of these may *differentially* reduce noise and/or detail.

Therefore, the service folks telling you to reduce Sharpness to "3" may be doing you a huge long-term disservice. Likewise, optimizing only ONE image aspect rather than finding a balance may not be the best tactic.

To understand why your line twitter issues are NOT with the camera, see my post:
How PsF video from the V1 is different than "p" or "F" video