Not sure if this has come up before. I'm aware of the 25F issues but this is regarding 50i.

Had an issue with HDV 1080/50i tapes from a PAL XLH1 not playing back properly in Sony decks.
Spoke to Canon Australia, apparently there is no 'official' head alignment standard across manufacturers, I'd assume they have their own internal standards. Canon Service can align heads to a Sony deck standard as a service procedure.

Frustrating that they don't try to do this out of the box, especially as Sony decks are so commonplace and Canon don't even make a true playback deck.

Why there isn't a common alignment standard is also a mystery. Given Sony's position in the marketplace, at least in Australia, this should really become the default standard. Defeats the purpose of having a common 1080/50i standard to begin with.

Don't know if anyone across the pond has come across this in 60i land, but something to be aware of as a possible, not definite, problem if you normally use your XLH1 as the feed deck but then have to give over camera tapes for ingest somewhere else.

Got a HDV 60i tape from a friend the other day shot on a Sony and it played fine in my XLH1.

I think it is more of a format issue than an alignment issue.

Mike

Hi. If you see my thread in the long thin line forum (got moved from this one for some reason) I am havig prolems here in the UK with the H1 and the Sony hvr m10 deck .The camera is now back with Canon to check out ,up to three weeks they estimate the time they need. Twice I sent the deck to Sony three day turn around on both occasions. Canon need to get their support here for this level of eqipment sorted out. Not a patch on Sony support.
I will let you know the out come when the camera returned.

Regards

Mick

All topics concerning tape and VTRs go to The Long Thin Line. That's why we moved it. Hope this helps,

Spoke to a Sony tech today - Sony send out alignment tapes to all their service people which in a perfect world means that all Sony decks are aligned the same.
Guessing now but possibly Canon are using a different alignment standard, or reference, or tape to set up their H1's, and the rest of their cameras, if they are selling the idea of using HV10/20's as 'feeder decks'.
Or are Sony's more fussy with their alignment? I've heard before that tapes shot in Sonys will play fine in the H1...but the problem seems to be going the other way.

Gotta wonder what is the point of having an HDV standard at all if everyone is going to do their own thing anyway. I'm guessing Sony wouldn't be handing out their alignment tapes to Canon but seeing as how Sony had established themselves in the HDV marketplace first with the Z1 (no, I don't count JVC's first abomination as a contender) it would have been prudent for Canon to do some reverse engineering and follow suit. Its only going to hurt their sales if people aren't able to simply take their 50i tapes into any post house and know that they will play on their Sony decks...
Does anyone from Canon lurk on this board?
Would love to hear their thoughts if so...

if they are selling the idea of using HV10/20's as 'feeder decks'.Yes. That's exactly what they're selling.

There are actually three different HDV standards, and they're all pretty much incompatible with each other. JVC has what we commonly refer to as HDV1, which is the 720p flavor, and Sony has HDV2, which is the 1080i60 flavor. And then Canon has a version of 1080i called Frame mode which provides 1080p30 and 1080p24, which is not compatible with Sony HDV VTRs.

I run the site with largest HDV presence on the internet, and I'll be the first to say that it's definitely a less-than-ideal situation. Bring on the tapeless formats! Until then, all of us will have to work around the incompatibilities (by using Canon consumer HDV cams as feeder decks, and other interim solutions).

Thanks for the info Chris,

But reading from previous posts on the Sony/Canon compatability on this forum it does seem there is a fix when recording in 60i and 50i. I am aware that you cannot play back in 24 or 30 mode or in our case 25f mode. Any way I will up date on the cameras return (when ever that will be).

Mike,

All my tapes recorded on the Z1 play back fine on the Canon and nearly all the tapes recorded on the Canon play fine on the Sony. Its just the odd tape that some how hangs and drops frames even though it play perfectly on the Canon

Many thanks

Mick

Does anyone know why Canon does not want to either manufacture their own VTR with robust editing tape drive or brand name another VTR maker's Canon spec'ed unit?

Surely seems like there is a sizeable market for it ...

Your Canon XLH1 should be compatible in all DV formats and 50i HDV with Sony. If it isn't then they should fix it or replace. They did fix mine for a similar NTSC issue. Sometimes things slip up at manufacturing and this is one of the results. Most people don't test compatibility with other gear when they first get a camera. This is one of my basic tests for a new camera.
DV needs a tracking knob is what I have decided. I have a Sony DV alignment tape which never seemed to be sensitive enough to insure the GVD-900 I played it on would record a properly aligned signal. It would get me close but not perfect. Usually you would get the adjustment after a few tries even though the alignment tape said it was fine the first time. I don't know if the Canon has an easy adjustment for their cameras so it might not be as easy for them to fix.

Does anyone know why Canon does not want to either manufacture their own VTR with robust editing tape drive or brand name another VTR maker's Canon spec'ed unit?

Surely seems like there is a sizeable market for it ...


Money-------It would not be profitable. Why not just sell cameras that work as decks? More customers for the same product!

Mike

Agreed. I don't think you'll ever see an HDV VTR from Canon.

Chris;
Just to be painfully clear. Both the HV10 and HV20 will play 24f and 30f XL H1 tapes? The HV20 specs refer to a 24p mode, 24f with a consumer friendly name? Thanks.

Hi Barry, no problem being painfully clear: both the HV10 and HV20 will play tapes recorded in 24F and 30F from the XL H1 and XH series camcorders.

The 24p in the HV20 is *not* Canon's Frame mode, so no it is not 24F with a consumer friendly name. You can read more about this in my article at http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php -- hope this helps,

Hi Barry, no problem being painfully clear: both the HV10 and HV20 will play tapes recorded in 24F and 30F from the XL H1 and XH series camcorders.

The 24p in the HV20 is *not* Canon's Frame mode, so no it is not 24F with a consumer friendly name. You can read more about this in my article at http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php -- hope this helps,

So do we know for sure if the new "24p" mode of the HV20 will be compatible to playback on standard HDV devices? Or at least HDV type2 devices? If I put a 24P HDV recording from the HV20 into my XLh1 will it simply play it as a 60i HDV stream with 3:2 pulldown embedded? Or is that question something that has not yet been given a clear answer?

Thanks!

If I put a 24P HDV recording from the HV20 into my XLh1 will it simply play it as a 60i HDV stream with 3:2 pulldown embedded?Yes. It's important to realize that 24P is recorded to tape as a 60i signal -- it has to be -- and therefore it's transparent to the playback device. That is, anything that can handle 1080i60 playback will also be able to show 24P from this camcorder.

Yes. It's important to realize that 24P is recorded to tape as a 60i signal -- it has to be -- and therefore it's transparent to the playback device. That is, anything that can handle 1080i60 playback will also be able to show 24P from this camcorder.

So that begs the next question.....is there any software in place that will allow this to be extracted to true 24P? Remember the old days of 24p embedded in DV as 2:3:3:2 pulldown and the software detected this and ignored the extra frames?

I guess I am asking because if I use the HV20 as a "B" camera to my H1 for certain projects, when I capture the footage the software will see the HV20 as 60i (despite the 24P pulldown inside) and the H1 as 24F. In the same Premiere project for example it would be a mess.....unless Premiere (vegas, FCP, Etc.) recognizes the 24P stream in the HV20 .m2v files and extracts true 24 from it. Or maybe Cineform could convert.

Does anyone know if Cineform can convert P2 1080i with embedded 24FPS into a 24P Cinefrom file? If it does then there might be hope for Cineform to do this quickly.

And one more for good measure. Since the HV20 does not use 24F encoding method of the H1, we should in theory, see a significant hit to the encoding quality as the HV20 has to share 25mbit stream with 60 fields versus the H1 only splitting it between 24 frames? right?

Sorry for all the questions...they just keep popping into my empty head as I work!

Peace!