Hi,
I posted this thread last November:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77766
At that time, Avid was promising the 720p25 upgrade for 1st Quarter 2007. Well, guess what? I went to another trade show today, and surprise surprise, the Avid demonstrators told me that, although their next release will have 720p50 support, there will be no support for 720p25 until at least the release after that, which they guess will be some time around late summer 2007 (i.e they have no idea when it is coming, if in fact it is coming at all). It goes without saying that some other people exhibiting at the show - who I won't name - were less than happy about this (in fact they were pretty furious) and I'm pretty furious too, having £5000 tied up in an edit system which I can't properly use with my camera, despite two years of broken promises.
I apologise for the angry tone of this post, but I'm pretty angry at the moment...

was that at earls court? i was there today. That's crap. is the xpress pro or media composer or both?

i have just bought a 201, will it be fine with final cut pro?

Yes, Video Forum at Earls Court. I only asked about xpress pro. You should be fine with final cut (or practically any other edit system!)

Coincidentally, there was an annoucement today at a presentation that Edius 4.1 is coming out as well as Procoder 3:
http://www.videomaker.com/blog/2007/01/218-grass-valleycanopus-updates-edius-41-and-announces-procoder-30-in-us

Could be that Grass valley is going to be an increasing figure on the new format market.

With the new cameras coming out, the new format configurations (such as with the V1 progressive), I think there are increasingly going to be better NLE choices than Avid... that is, I think Avid's arrogance is going to start to do them in.

And I think prices will continue to drop on the newer code, cutting edge editors needed by HDV production companies and producers.

I think the market is changing (and growing) -- one example, the new marketing strategy by Digital Juice of making their product available to thousands more users at incredibly discounted prices.

I fantasize that someone is sitting on the sideline with a technology and workflow that is going to blow the doors off the current feature film workflow on Avids.

This had really better be not true. I'm getting more and more disgusted with a company that is supposed to be the industry leader, and instead are starting to lag literal years behind.

This had really better be not true. I'm getting more and more disgusted with a company that is supposed to be the industry leader, and instead are starting to lag literal years behind.

I wish it wasn't true, too. But as this information comes from an Avid employee who was publically demonstrating their products at one of the main video events in London, I have to say its a pretty informed source.

This news helps to explain some of the comments that have been posted on Avids own forum about this matter - whenever anyone posts the question "when is 720p25 coming" the answer is always "720p50 is just around the corner" i.e they avoid the question entirely!

Did you ask about 720/24P?

I'm almost 100% that this information is correct. Avid apps (excluding Liquid and DS) are a family and are developed together so this sad news means Xpress Pro, Media Composer (soft and Adrenaline) and Symphony Nitris. It also applies to 720p/24 HDV1. It looks like Avid will release 720p/50 project types and support for DVCProHD. Native HDV1 support (i.e. native ingest over firewire) will not be included within the capabilities of the 720p/50 project type, so it's no help for HD200 or 250 owners shooting 50fps unless they are happy to transcode to DNx first. Those wishing to work 720p/25 are as stuck as ever and 24P guys will have to use the existing 720p/24 project type with no native HDV1 ingest.

In the meantime, the only viable and efficient HD post solution for HDV1-acquired material at 24 or 25fps on Avid kit, is to use MC Adrenaline + optional HD board or Symph Nitris together with the HDConnect box, which will give you real-time HDV1 to baseband HDSDI 1080i (PsF, of course) into a 1080p or 1080i Avid project. You can also use such a box for SD down-converts to SD SDI into non-HD MC Adrenaline, Mojo SDI or SD YUV into the analogue Mojo.

It's a disgrace, frankly. As I keep saying, I was at IBC in 2005 (that's Amsterdam, Europe where PAL is the weapon of choice) where Avid had an official presence on the JVC stand and an Avid rep told me to my face that full HDV1 support would be there by the end of 2005. Now I'm beginning to take the conspiracy theories on this a little more seriously. JVC really must be furious.

I like your optimism, Jack, but - in Europe at least - Avid is a long, long way from being under any threat whatsoever in the broadcast and facility market from Edius, Vegas or Premiere. FCP is making serious in-roads in the corporate market here in the UK but Avid still rules the roost over here. Very few people I work for/with in Europe have even heard of Canopus or Edius. There is nothing meritocratic about the post market where kit is concerned - especially in London. Here, in the broadcast world, Avid is synonymous with 'Edit' now and I strongly suspect that lack of support for a JVC camera (nearly everyone uses Sony) will do very little to damage Avid's standing amongst the hardcore of its customers. It's terrible, I know.

If enough people in North America move away from Avid in the long term then maybe we will see a paradigm shift here but this HDV1 thing really is just a drop in the ocean - unless you happen to want to shoot HDV1 and love the cameras like we do!

I cannot stand Avid and I'm very proud of the fact I have not used any of their systems for the last 6 years.

I hope they fail hard and lose market share.

I hear you, Mark, but I still haven't found anything better than Avid for 90% of what we do - and I've tried many NLEs.

All the same, I absoutely refuse to let Avid spoil the HDxxx series for us. These are great little cameras and I'm just continuing to use our work-around and cutting on Avid.

Well, depending on how you look at it, AVID is 'gaining' market share. They 'gained' a huge chunk of the 'prosumer' world when the acquired LIQUID and they're still the main choice for more than ninety percent of the Movies and Television produced. (That's why it's such a big deal when a feature is cut on FCP,... it's just done so seldom.)

There's no question that the 'boutique' market is the red headed step child of AVID. And I think it's going to bite them in the long run. Just how 'long' a run that is, is the question.

There's no question that the 'boutique' market is the red headed step child of AVID. And I think it's going to bite them in the long run. Just how 'long' a run that is, is the question.

Well said, Richard.

Don't get me wrong, I love AVID, and here in NTSC land, the whole 25p issue is not high on my priority... but I'm not sure what AVID is thinking the way the do treat the prosumer/boutique needs. I think the next year will be an important one in market trends.

I think in april at the NAB you will see apple take a strong jump with a new version of final cut pro and possibly new note books with hdv burners and new intel chips apple is the company to watch this spring, there going to take a large share of the market over the next two years and I think avid will start to lose a large share. (Lets watch and see)

Well, define "Market". And then define "Large Share". FCP has fewer units than Premier 'in the Market'.(If by market you mean consumer video) If "the market" is FILM and BROADCAST, then it's not going to turn in a year or two. If "the market" is 'independent filmmakers/small add agencies/ boutique productions houses' the FCP HAS that share over Avid. So I'm not sure where such advances would make the dent.

There are big changes in the air for a lot of NLE's - AVID included. But the next year will be one to watch, for sure.

I think in april at the NAB you will see apple take a strong jump with a new version of final cut pro and possibly new note books with hdv burners and new intel chips apple is the company to watch this spring, there going to take a large share of the market over the next two years and I think avid will start to lose a large share. (Lets watch and see)

HDV burners?? I assume that you mean Blue Ray or HD DVD. As far as Avid goes I've been a little frustrated with their approach or lack thereof for HDV1,specifically 24p. They support HDV2 pretty well . But Avid makes by far most of their money on Big Iron. That includes the federal government buying forensic software and Unity media servers that they can sell for over $200k a pop.

They seem to be willing to let the small boutique market go to FCP and hope Liquid can semi compete. So far as losing market share you have to consider which market. The large post houses in New York and LA are still Avid, and by far most broadcast TV shows and feature films are cut on Avid. Avid has a whole slew of products from news automation, playout servers, to 3D animation software to Pro Tools audio. NLE products are a drop in the bucket.

Avid is a big boat and sometimes it takes awhile for it to turn. And it seems at least to me that they prioritize their strategic relationship with Sony and Panasonic before JVC.

But as of yet IMO nobody beats Avid when it comes to media management. Of course I may end up on FCP a year from now if Avid doesn't deliver 720/24.

The issue for me is not whether or not Avid supports a format - its the fact that they keep making promises and not delivering. It's always "next quarter" or "In the New year". If they had said two years ago "We'll have it in 2008" We wouldn't need to be having this discussion - we would have accepted the fact and moved on. It's the constant avoidance and misinformation which is really infuriating!

It really does upset me that they are devoting their clearly limited base of engineers to all sorts of new stuff when they haven't even finished what's there.

Someone needs to tell Avid that pretty new features may get you attention at NAB, but it's actually being able to cut the footage your camera shoots that gets and keeps you customers.

I agree with all of you and personaly if final cut pro comes out in april and it can edit 24p with no lag in audio or droped frames and thier note books come out with hdv burners or blueray which is what apples supports and they have the new intel chips in them then I will definitly take the plunge and buy both and as far as avid goes well I will let you fill in the blanks. I have alot of footage shot with my hd100 and I am still waiting for a software program that can do the job accross the board and then burn it to HDV. I am banking on apple to do the job ( we will see )

You are not kidding. I am still trying to hang on to the fence I am sitting on but unless Avid delivers real soon (and I mean real soon!) I will be buying a Decklink card and FCP Studio (for half the money than what I already spent on AXP & Mojo) and Avid can go ... yes, I like that; fill the blanks.

Oh, and when it comes to market shares. Hmm, well, the NLE might be a relatively small market but it is the market from which new generations of editors come. And those are some of the guys and gals that will eventually end up in big post houses, film studios and tv networks. And if they grow up on FCP and love it, they will bring it to their respective workplaces and Avid will really star loosing the market, except this time it will be for a real. In fact, it's already happening.

I can edit DVCPRO HD on my G4 laptop at client locations using G-RAID 800 Firewire drives with no dropped frames?? 720 25p as well?
I cannot wait to see what FCP features are unleashed at NAB.

I won't go into the details again here but this 720p/25 and 24 thing for HDV1 at Avid just has to be political now. It is most certainly in their power to deliver it and to deliver it well. They've been 'working on it' since late 2005, so what's the delay? The answer is simply that it is not a priority for them. Why?

I agree that it's the false promises that are most frustrating. If they had taken the position from the start - just for example - that 720p/25 is not a recognised broadcast standard and for that reason support would not be forthcoming, at least everyone would have known where they stood. Armed with that information, one could then decide not to shoot HDV1 or switch post methods/kit.

I wasn't going to go to Video Forum, but after reading this thread I went along yesterday just express my opinion in no uncertain manner to Avid in person. I felt a bit sorry for the guys on the stand as they had clearly been getting an earful from everyone at the show about 720/25p. I'm amazed at their attitude and apparent complete lack of interest in communicating with and supporting their PAL customers.

Antony - I entirely agree that this has the whiff of politics. Particularly when you consider that other 720p framerates have been supported for ages. Why not 25p?

I'm amazed at their attitude and apparent complete lack of interest in communicating with and supporting their PAL customers.



I don't get that at all either.

Its like they don't want the business of the other half of the world.

Hell even FCP was behind in 25p PAL developments.

Whats up with that?

One explanation is that 720p/25 just isn't a recognised broadcast standard. Even if the EBU bangs on about 720p, the fact is that no significant European HD broadcaster will accept anything other than 1080i. Furthermore, there are also no real mastering formats even for 720p/50 (I know of no significant HD broadcaster that accepts DVCPro HD for master delivery in the EU). This is very different from North America, where 720p/60 is reasonably established. This - to some extent - excuses Avid's late development of 720p in general.

However, the continuing lack of native HDV1 development by Avid is another issue. From the start, Avid promised support. Hell, their logo was even on the camera box on units sold in Europe. And - as I keep saying - they had a distinct, branded presence on the HD100 section of the JVC stand at IBC 2005, where they were showing Avid working with 720p/30 HDV1 and boldly proclaiming forthcoming support for 24 and 24fps. Clearly, it has been and still is easily within Avid's considerable power to implement further support for native HDV1 and 720p in general. Avid is famous for late development and - often - this is because they tend to do things right, even if it takes a little longer than the competition. All the same the sheer scale of this delay on HDV1 development smacks of politics. XDCAM support and - to a lesser extent - DVCPro HD and P2 support have been given a great deal more attention by Avid. It is hard to come to any other conclusion than that the delays are, at best, due to a surprising lack of internal resources or, worse still, a deliberate policy to prioritise EVERY new format and development thereof over HDV1 - even though many came to market long after HDV1. Simply put, Sony and Panasonic command a much larger share of the market across the board and continue to be given a much higher priority - even to the point of active exclusion of the format.

I don't mind if I have to work in a 720p50 project, as long as I can ingest 720p25 HDV1 over firewire and use it natively in that project. Hell, simply being able to directly import a 720p25 HDV m2t stream (transcoding to DNxHD) would at least be a start.

FWIW, Avid is only hanging on in broadcast plants because
1. they have an established infrastructure - unity share, edit stations, ect. the networks aren't going to trash that. This is the direct word from an an engineer at one of the NYC networks " We'd dump avid in a minute if it weren't for all the installed infrastructure and media files we have haning around"
2. FUD. lots places that have been avid only and never used another NLE just don't understand there is better out there.
3. Airplay and news edit stations installed, entire operation based on this

once you leave TV stations though, Avid is getting smacked by FCP and PPon the low to middle end, and by smoke on the high end. They are very arrogant and have delivered very little innovation in their products for years. combine that with high cost of ownership, yearly service contract, proprietary media, ect and they have been getting kicked for the last couple of years.

Steve Oakley

I agree with you, Steve. I'd switch from Avid in a second if I could. We're stuck on Avid here for a variety of reasons, some of which are:

1. 8 years + experience using it (better the devil you know). That has a lot of weight for us.

2. 8 years + use - again, lots of media and projects hanging around

3. Avid dominance in the facility and rental market. It's easy to move our project if we need to go up a notch to a big facility. It's extremely fast and easy to rent a replacement when the gear goes down. AND the Avid resellers are a LOT more clued up when it comes to professional broadcast technology support. I still haven't found a FCP system reseller in the UK that actually knows what they're talking about at the mid-high end.

4. Talent pool. It's fast and easy to find other experienced Avid editors with impressive CVs here in London. Experienced FCP editors with a solid professional track record are few and far between over here.

5. I've tried lots of other NLEs and none of them come close to Avid in terms of actual editing. Yes, the Avid I/O, pricing paradigm, and premium charges really suck - as does the FX architechture - but that cutting interface is just superb compared to FCP, PP, Edius, Liquid.

6. It's cross-platform.

I'd be very interested to know which NLEs you think are better, Steve. I'd take Smoke over DS or Symph Nitris for high-end finishing any day but for pure editing for sensible money? So far, I'd say FCP is the only viable alternative for us but it's a very distant second as far as our needs are concerned.

Any experienced Avid editors out there who have made a switch and are happy with their new kit? I'd love to hear from you.

I agree with you, Steve. I'd switch from Avid in a second if I could. We're stuck on Avid here for a variety of reasons, some of which are:

1. 8 years + experience using it (better the devil you know). That has a lot of weight for us.

2. 8 years + use - again, lots of media and projects hanging around

I thought that way too... once ! now I might be dating myself but - back in the early days of NLE's there were only two choices, Avid and Media100. For me I went M100 because it had better image quality and lower price. Eventually, I got fustrated with M100 after having used it for many years and looked at other solutions. Oddly enough, its was Premiere5 on mac that did this. I had a 3 cam shoot to edit and knew it would be misery to do this in M100, so I had a copy of P and tried it. I laid out each cam in a V track and just cut. I won't say P was a great editor back then, but it got the job done. Having only worked with M100 I had some of the same fears you had, including feeling that other NLE's wouldn't give me the same precision in editing, image quality, ect. but the lack of real layers was killing me in M100 so I switched to FCP. let me tell you it was hard giving up M100 after having used it for years, but I got out in time, and was able to sell off both of my cards ( I had two seats ) and get a little cash for it which I rolled into FCP.

that said, there are lots of ways of dealing with the legacy material because I went through it. you can use automatic duck to move your Avid projects over to FCP easily enough. you can export critical bits of programs to QT, or to HD/digibeta and just reload them into FCP. You could even just play out of Avid in SDI or component into FCP and capture in FCP, all in RT. certainly using SDI this is a great way to move things over. With the change from M100 to FCP which I did, and which I've done for several other shops, it was mainly a matter of exporting EDL's of working programs and reloading in FCP, and the QT conversions of rendered graphic bits. yes this takes time end effort, but its certainly doable. you just have to plan it out. since there is a M100 QT codec, you can even take M100 clips and use them directly in FCP.

as for the 8 years using avid, that really doesn't mean much because its the past. you can just as easily move to FCP with a transition period. the only thing to fear here is fear itself.


3. Avid dominance in the facility and rental market. It's easy to move our project if we need to go up a notch to a big facility. It's extremely fast and easy to rent a replacement when the gear goes down. AND the Avid resellers are a LOT more clued up when it comes to professional broadcast technology support. I still haven't found a FCP system reseller in the UK that actually knows what they're talking about at the mid-high end.

FCP projects move just as easily so thats not a big deal. as for dealer support I'd somewhat agree, there are a lot of bozo dealers out there that are just box movers. However, you can usually find at least one dealer in your area who does know what they are doing... or you wind up hiring some one like me to provide support when needed. thats something I've done for a few dealers in the NY area in supporting broadcast clients.


4. Talent pool. It's fast and easy to find other experienced Avid editors with impressive CVs here in London. Experienced FCP editors with a solid professional track record are few and far between over here.


well thats a bit different. here in the US there are plenty of qualified FCP editors... and even more unqualfied ones, but you can always find some one thats good. I guess it depends - I mean how many editors do you need to hire, even for freelance ? usually most places have a pool of a couple of people that are their A list and can usually get one of them.


5. I've tried lots of other NLEs and none of them come close to Avid in terms of actual editing. Yes, the Avid I/O, pricing paradigm, and premium charges really suck - as does the FX architechture - but that cutting interface is just superb compared to FCP, PP, Edius, Liquid.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Avid gets me bonkers. I've used it and I find it so incredibly limiting and flawed its amazing, this is what I mean:
1. extremely linear editing. I'd liken editing in avid as a computer simulation of editing on tape. all you do is mark I and O all day long and that gets to wearing thin. its a slow and wasteful way to work when there are better ways of doings.

2. you just can't grab and move clips around in the TL... at least not without changing tools, and living in fear of knocking stuff out of sync. this is never an issue in FCP. I find it simply unspeakable that audio and video of a single clip don't have explicit sync. they instead are not locked together. even iMovie has sync lock between A and V of a clip. You can turn this off in FCP if you want BTW, which I do use when mixing sometimes.

3. much more tool switching in avid than FCP for basic editing


I'd be very interested to know which NLEs you think are better, Steve. I'd take Smoke over DS or Symph Nitris for high-end finishing any day but for pure editing for sensible money? So far, I'd say FCP is the only viable alternative for us but it's a very distant second as far as our needs are concerned.
Any experienced Avid editors out there who have made a switch and are happy with their new kit? I'd love to hear from you.

yes smoke for for finishing, but I've seen it used for basic editing tool, although I think it suffers from the most stupid set of keystrokes of any editing app out there. After that, FCP. if you're will to add some third party stuff to it like RED, silhoette roto, bcc its a very powerful system. So may I ask, where do you think FCP falls short in relation to Avid, specifically ?

I've spent a good deal of time teaching avid editors in real network TV how to use FCP, and *every* single one of them has said somewhere in the process "this is so much easier than Avid" so maybe we should talk. I think that maybe the issue is you don't have any good dealers who really know the product ( as You've said ) beyond the basics. send me your phone # off line and I'll give you a call - I've got vonage and the UK is included in my "local" calling area.


Steve Oakley
steveo@praciticali.com

Hi Steve,

I am in the same boat as Antony, perhaps a little less involved because I am not running a facility, just my own edit suite. And yes, I am biased and know about it. I learned Avid years ago by working with Avid editors (being either the director or producer of a project) and later, when I moved to a small market and had to get into editing myself, my natural choice was therefore Avid again. Now I am very comfortable with its interface and I have invested into software and hardware (Mojo). Thankfully, I am running it on a Mac so at least a switch to FCP wouldn’t constitute a system change. I just can’t get myself to change my way of thinking and re-learn the whole system from scratch. You seem to have done a fair amount of training, do you have any suggestions or materials that would be helpful to a transitioning editor? None of us really has the luxury of lots of time to re-learn everything from ground up. If I do this I would pretty much need to get going fairly fast because it will likely be a paying client that I will be cutting for.

Thanks,
Jiri

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Avid gets me bonkers. I've used it and I find it so incredibly limiting and flawed its amazing, this is what I mean:

1. extremely linear editing. I'd liken editing in avid as a computer simulation of editing on tape. all you do is mark I and O all day long and that gets to wearing thin. its a slow and wasteful way to work when there are better ways of doings.

2. you just can't grab and move clips around in the TL... at least not without changing tools, and living in fear of knocking stuff out of sync. this is never an issue in FCP. I find it simply unspeakable that audio and video of a single clip don't have explicit sync. they instead are not locked together. even iMovie has sync lock between A and V of a clip. You can turn this off in FCP if you want BTW, which I do use when mixing sometimes.

3. much more tool switching in avid than FCP for basic editing

Steve Oakley
steveo@praciticali.com

I don't want to start an Avid vs FCP thing here but simply would like to point out that all of these things are exceptionally easy and doable with Avid. A quick perusal of the Avid Help would certainly dispell any mis-perceptions about what the Avid interface is capable of, for example from the Help...

"Using Sync Lock
The sync lock feature allows you to maintain sync among several tracks while adding, moving, trimming, or removing frames in a sequence. For example, if you insert an edit into one track that is sync locked to a second track, the system automatically inserts filler in the second track to maintain sync between the two.

You activate sync locking by clicking the Sync Lock button in the Track Selector panel to display the Sync Lock icon. You can also switch all sync locks on or off by clicking the Sync Lock All button.

You can sync lock any number of tracks in any combination. The tracks do not require matching timecode or common sources, and can include multiple video tracks as well as audio tracks.

Sync locking affects entire tracks. This means that parallel segments in other sync-locked tracks are affected when you add, move, trim, or remove material anywhere in the sequence."

Quite simple when you are familiar with the interface.

I've heard from a few FCP converts that have come back to Avid that they found the FCP interface to be "cumbersome and clunky" and not something they could depend on in regard to consistenly finding media, not dropping frames, etc. To each his own.

My 2 cents

well, my advice is not to be learning something new while having a paying client, unless its a simple job. that said, there is a book called FCP for Avid editors. the version that came to me though was FCP V3, and I don't know if its been updated.

when I've done training, its usually been about a 5 day course. Don't let that scare you though, that goes from the basics to the advanced stuff like color correction, track mattes, and getting into al the corners of the app. I think that with about two days, you can have basic skills. I would also say its not a total ground up re-learn because FCP does many things the same or in a smiliar enough way its not going to take much to figure out. You can sit and mark I and O in fcp all day long if you like, and pretty much edit just like you would in avid, but its not the most effecient way to work. There are about a dozen keystrokes you need to learn in FCP to be reasonably effecient. So the best thing I can say is, and I think you know it already, if you don't try to edit in FCP the same way you do in avid, you're 1/2 way there.

Steve Oakley

"Using Sync Lock
The sync lock feature allows you to maintain sync among several tracks while adding, moving, trimming, or removing frames in a sequence. For example, if you insert an edit into one track that is sync locked to a second track, the system automatically inserts filler in the second track to maintain sync between the two.

You activate sync locking by clicking the Sync Lock button in the Track Selector panel to display the Sync Lock icon. You can also switch all sync locks on or off by clicking the Sync Lock All button.
Sync locking affects entire tracks. This means that parallel segments in other sync-locked tracks are affected when you add, move, trim, or remove material anywhere in the sequence."

I'm quite familar with sync locks. its a bandaid to cover up the fact that if you place a clip into the TL which came in with sync sound, the clip itself has no sync lock between its matching A and V. there is no way to defend this huge short coming. sync locks are track based, not clip based. in avid you can't grab a video clip with sync sound and using only the mouse pick it up and move it somewhere else. its audio will stay put. I know you will next say you can do by doing.... but its not a single step of simply grabbing the clip and moving and everything goes for the ride - in sync.


I've heard from a few FCP converts that have come back to Avid that they found the FCP interface to be "cumbersome and clunky" and not something they could depend on in regard to consistenly finding media, not dropping frames, etc. To each his own.


FCP dropping frames is no different than avid dropping frames - media through put from the drives is not up to par, the machine isn't configured right - mismatched drivers, OS, misconfigured hardware, trying to play media that requires a higher data rate than the drives will support, and any number of user errors, ect. I've found FCP in general be far less picky about this and Avid. Avid has far more specific specs on Avid software version and OS X version than FCP does. I'm not sure what you mean by "not finding media". if you mean relinking clips to files, it works ok. its not automagic like M100 had and which I think no other NLE has ever done as well, but certainly in V5.x its solid and works. as for FCP's find function for searching for a clip in a project, sometimes it works, sometimes not. Its not something I ever even use because I generally have things organized enough that I know where it is, or can find it fast enough by simply opening the right bin.

and don't get me wrong, if something better than FCP came along that gave me intergated masking, tracking, paint, maybe full 3D with camera, I'd dump FCP in a instant... provided it wasn't $100k

Steve Oakley

"its a bandaid to cover up the fact that if you place a clip into the TL which came in with sync sound, the clip itself has no sync lock between its matching A and V. there is no way to defend this huge short coming. sync locks are track based, not clip based. in avid you can't grab a video clip with sync sound and using only the mouse pick it up and move it somewhere else. its audio will stay put. "

Uh... no... you CAN lasso a segment with the mouse, and move it anywhere you want, and the audio goes with it. You WILL have to decide if you want the segment (that's what avid calls a clip once it's on a timeline) to OVERWRITE or INSERT where you place it. It can't read your mind. But the audio most definitely goes with it in synch.

But theres an assertion here, that working with a mouse is somehow 'better' or 'faster' than working with a keyboard or mouse/keyboard combination. Might be one thing for one person, something else for another. With AVID there's several ways to do things, either keyboard only, mouse only or combination.

Once you understand you don't edit in Avid the same way you do in FCP, you're half way there...

I'm quite familar with sync locks. its a bandaid..... track based, not clip based. in avid you can't grab a video clip with sync sound and using only the mouse pick it up and move it somewhere else. its audio will stay put. I know you will next say you can do by doing.... but its not a single step of simply grabbing the clip and moving and everything goes for the ride - in sync.
Steve Oakley

Steve,

Maintaining sync in Avid is clip based and segment based. You can alt/option/ctrl/lasso drag in overwrite or segment, trim, head/tails all day in the timeline and not lose sync. How can someone who trains on Avid completely misinform everyone on Avid sync.? Hell, Avid can even Auto Sync clips. This has all reminded me why companies like Media 100, EMC2, IMIX, and a host of other edit platforms are extinct. (Media 100 is somewhere out there I guess) They didn't have a fool proof way of ensuring you don't loose your media. And if you're a producer with a multi million dollar feature film budget or me when I have an agency client spending 20k, the last thing you want to do is say OOOOPS, my sequence time line no longer links to the media. Now I'm not saying FCP has media management problems. I don't know because I'm not an FCP user. But in the end, there is a reason that Avid is in the big facilities. Media managment baby.

I'm keeping an eye out for FCP, it seems it has great bell & whistles. But, I was talking to a friend of mine who works for a Time Warner facility here and they have 2 older Media Composers and 2 new FCP's. On several occasions they've gone back to projects on on FCP's a few weeks old and the media (especially imported grfx) are unlinked. Now I don't know they may be doing something wrong. But he said (His opinion) FCP media management is currently too open for working in a networked facility with multiple projects and editors.

Now on Media Composer and Xpress Pro I can move my project and media from my desktop to my notebook to a facility with a Symphony Nitris and not lose a thing. I haven't lost one piece of media in 13 years. That is why all of the networks and large post facilities have Avid's. They have clients spending big bucks. Avid applies a defined media database OMF/MXF file structure to every piece of media. If something gets moved, it goes and scans (on app launch) for it and puts in back into the database. You would have to be a numskull to lose media (or sync for that matter) with Avid. And it's been that way since the beginning.

(Back to the original issue of the thread.)
My own reality check: Yes it is unfortunate that Avid doesn't support HDV1 24p yet and can be a hassle converting 24p to DNXHD. However, of all of the hundreds of issues when considering how I'm going to edit my next paying gig, I think that I can say with confidence to my clients, that my Avids are flexible and reliable and I will be able to finish any paying project on time and on budget. After all, this is how I make my living and hence I do sleep well at night.

But guys it doesn't do anyone any service to turn this into a FCP vs Avid thread. From what I can tell Apple has done a wonderful job of offering an easy to use affordable integrated software solution with great 3rd party support to a new generation of editors and someday I may be one of them . And Avid Media Composer/Xpress is a mature and proven enterprise class edit solution used by editors all over the globe.

I think there will always be room for both solutions.

Steve,
Maintaining sync in Avid is clip based and segment based. You can alt/option/ctrl/lasso drag in overwrite or segment, trim, head/tails all day in the timeline and not lose sync. How can someone who trains on Avid completely misinform everyone on Avid sync.? Hell, Avid can even Auto Sync clips.

David, please re-read my post - "I have trained dozens of avid editors to use FCP" I don't train on avid, but FCP. The last time I used avid professionally was 8 years ago and hated it. I did it because I got some work and thought it would lead to more work, but I grew to dislike it enough that I'd rather quit editing than have to use it. its editing tools were just too crude, and required too much fliping around of tools.


I have a current (legit) copy of Xpress and it does not have explicit clip sync. if you have not used another NLE, then you may not understand what I am talking about. In FCP, Prem, or other editors you can simply grab a AV clip in either the V or A section, and simply move it by click and drag with the arrow tool. Both pieces are locked together, period, unless you are in non-sync mode. no alt / opt / control /command / lasso. drag box required. you just click and drag the clip to where you want it. In FCP, add the option after you grab the clip and you do a insert edit. if you put down the option key before dragging a clip, you get a duplicate. very handy for titles or background clips.

in avid, you have to change tools, then hold down the modifiers, then make sure you grabbed everything, then move. in FCP its one step. and tell me, if you happen to miss selecting a clip because the clip does not have explict sync lock.... then what ? undo, grab the item you missed and move again, or move the piece you missed to where it needs to go ?

I've also seen examples of how sync locks split clips and fill with space, ect.

And if you're a producer with a multi million dollar feature film budget or me when I have an agency client spending 20k, the last thing you want to do is say OOOOPS, my sequence time line no longer links to the media. Now I'm not saying FCP has media management problems. I don't know because I'm not an FCP user. But in the end, there is a reason that Avid is in the big facilities. Media managment baby.

FCP does not have problems loosing its media "by accident". the only way FCP looses its media is the same way avid does - you take a drive offline, its not connected, you move the project to another system and miss a file.
FCP has a pretty good abiltiy to relink media now and its not an issue. As a matter of fact, I now edit in FCP, send the project to the producer where they have a drive with matching media. they relink, make some suggestions or changes, send the file back to me where I continue on. BTW, they are not across town, but 1800 miles away from me.

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On several occasions they've gone back to projects on on FCP's a few weeks old and the media (especially imported grfx) are unlinked. Now I don't know they may be doing something wrong. But he said (His opinion) FCP media management is currently too open for working in a networked facility with multiple projects and editors.
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you can almost count they are doing something wrong with moving media around, or even taking it offline, or worse, trying to manually manage FCP media files. FCP in its current version does very well with most things.

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that said, I do wish FCP would automatically relink media as some other NLE's did and when using media manager with multiple timelines, it worked. its not perfect, but is anythhing ?

I think there will always be room for both solutions.

there is always room, the question is how will the market vote with its $

Steve Oakley

Basically what us Avid guys are saying is we like Avid better but are absolutely fed up with the company's attitude and lousy, slow, under par, ridiculous support for certain formats. Oh yes, let me also add, while I am at it, the refusal to allow third party hardware to work with Avid software is also maddening. Avid is simply an ARROGANT company that thinks that they will weather this FCP ambush by having a better and more established product. Well, this time, they might just be wrong...

On the other hand I am thinking that they might WANT us to move to FCP because they just don't want to further service this particular segment of the market. Too much hassle for too little money. The fact that they are pushing MC on the slightly higher end and Liquid on the low end would suggest exactly that. The days of AXP are numbered.

yes, let me also add, while I am at it, the refusal to allow third party hardware to work with Avid software is also maddening.

On the other hand I am thinking that they might WANT us to move to FCP because they just don't want to further service this particular segment of the market. Too much hassle for too little money. The fact that they are pushing MC on the slightly higher end and Liquid on the low end would suggest exactly that. The days of AXP are numbered.

You're right Jeri. If I could use a Black Magic card ($900)with Xpress vs. the $2500 Mojo SDI which is only standard def, I would be very happy. And I'm getting the same feeling too about servicing this market (Small boutique shops cannot afford 6 figure installs of Unity/Adrenaline/Nitris I/O boxes and network). Maybe NAB in April will force Avid to wake up. Stephen Noe said in a post back a few weeks ago that a forthcoming new version of Liquid looks very promising. We'll see.

Steve, I did misread your post and I'm sorry you had such a traumatic experience with Avid 8 years ago.

As a side note, I bought a demo VCR that had been used at 2006 NAB from a dealer somewhere in the mid south. I asked him how he (his company, he was working for a larger organization) got into the business of selling demos from shows. He said that he had been selling Avid only, but with the declining prices and the shrinking market, this didn't pay the bills anymore.

Perhaps there is a greater change happening that is not totally obvious yet at the high end market. But to paraphrase a former President, there may well be a trickle up effect.

Also, the bad taste that arrogance gives people seems creep in slowly, but then it has a long lasting effect.

"in avid, you have to change tools, then hold down the modifiers, then make sure you grabbed everything, then move. in FCP its one step."

That is simply. Not. True.

Lasoo the segment, left to right, then move it. It stays in synch. You don't NEED to press alt, control or anything else.

But lots of commands in FCP require CONTROLL click to make them happen, it's not a big deal.

If you're going to criticize the app, make sure you can use it... in EVERY variation.

I do enjoy cutting on an Avid, but this 24P nonsense is making my head explode. If it is not delivered in this next release, I may be done with Avid.

Absolutely. I suspect that an important - if not critical - issue for most of us here is the ability to work with HDV1 at any frame rate - particularly 24P and 25P. Although Avid do occasionally issue statements to the contrary, it is crystal clear from (lack of) action, not words, that HDV1 is not even close to being a priority in Avid product development.

We provide post facilities for external clients and we also produce our own stuff- some of which is shot on the HDxxx series of JVC cameras. We have the HDV1 issue with Avid, the general arrogance issue with Avid and the ridiculous price paradigm issue with Avid. We have to weigh these problems against our preference for the core application (yes, I've used lots of others on paying jobs, so I'm not all that blinkered) and the huge advantages of integration that using Avid brings - particularly here in the UK.

It's a tough situation because I'm not convinced there's a suitable alternative out there. FCP is probably the closest but that means a platform switch that we just aren't in a position to make right now. I have actually used FCP for paying work and I was impressed at the price/feature ratio but I'd rather cut on Avid any day of the week! I'm not sure I agree with those Avid criticisms above. There are simple ways to do nearly all those things. Avid is much more flexible than many people think. You can drag/drop etc with ease. I actually work much faster with keyboard shortcut controls anyway.

Are there any former Avid professionals out there who have made the switch to another PC-based NLE and are happy with the result?

INtegration is the big stumbling block to changeovers for large houses. It's much easier for a single suite shop to say "Well that's it, as soon as it's time to upgrade computers, we'll go with FCP, and be done with it." Since it's all done in house, it's easily done. But if youre moving in and out of broadcast suites, finishing suites, other post houses, working with HUGE files on networks with many suites co-producing... then it's a hard sell.

Yes, AVID is much faster to cut on with keystrokes than mouse movements, but that's neither here nor there, as you can also point and click/drag and drop for every action as well if that's your preference.

I really suspect there is some sort of 'political' or 'proprietary' stumbling block in place that no one inside is talking about. I don't have any reasons for assuming as much, except THIS - My wife is an intellectual property attorney. We live in Silicon Valley (close enough). It's not uncommon for all sorts of issues to arise between software/hardware companies that become stumbling blocks because of proprietary licensing or integration or other arcane/legal issues that prevent what SHOULD be a simple acquisition or integration from occurring. And no one is allowed to discuss it. That is SORT of what this smells like. Am I just whistling in the wind? Absolutely. It's just a wild guess on my part. But as others have pointed out, there shouldn't be any real 'technical' reason for not doing it, therefore the only reasons would be 'business'.

Occams razor.

Well Avid may be in all the big houses but that started along time back, I would say if final cut pro makes some big improvements this year and ends up in alot of the smaller facilities and maybe even in some larger ones it will be a big plus for them.
Remember everyone starts some where and with the growing maket in small buisness over the years and the newer improved tool's available to that market what's avid going to do as some of these smaller companys with with the new power in affordable tool's at hand start getting bigger and better. There are more in the playing field then ever before and those company's as they grow small or not will more than likely stay with the platform that took them there this is what avid should be concerned about.
Back in the day only big company's with big money could be on top in most cases, that's not the way it is today or will be in the future. Like I said as more of these smaller company's get bigger and take there platform's that have worked for them over the year's up the hill with them so shall the market for avid change.
Many say that avid may not see small business as a big profit or a place to invest for big returns, I say that would be a grave mistake on thier part this is a different arena than in the past all the small company's avid dogs in thier ingnorance in the present shall in my opinion come to haunt them in the future as these smaller companys grow and prosper. (just ask Spock)

The above is merely and opinion only time will tell

Gary,

I think an indication of your prophecy would be when the broadcast/film world starts cutting on FCP for... say, thirty percent of their projects. So look for that sort of trend.

Right now, AVID is still over ninety percent.

I remeber a few months back the news that the BBC was dumping Avid from some of its operations and replacing it with Final Cut. At the time I thought that an odd decision, now I can totally see their logic.

Several months later... Just curious - has anyone heard any updates about 720p25 support in avid xpress pro?

Several months later... Just curious - has anyone heard any updates about 720p25 support in avid xpress pro?

I guess not...