Do you think Pani will announce at NAB that 16gig and 32gig cards will be available this year

Do you think Pani will announce at NAB that 16gig and 32gig cards will be available this year

Just my opinion, but I don't think that the P2 card system is going to last. I don't think it is catching on and that will limit the development of more and bigger cards. It is because of the cost of course. If they can't sell tons of them, they can't afford to put money into development.

I was at an acting class/lecture a couple of weeks ago. A local filmmaker and commercial videographer was there. He had his Pani there and set up to record the class. I brought in my XLH1 and set up too. It was a kind of last minute thing and had not been planed out in advance. Did not have anyone miked or anything.

My Pani friend was switching P2 cards and trying to keep up, then he just finally GAVE up. I ended up shooting over 5 hours of HDV. At the next class a week later, we set up my XLH1 only. He and another filmmaker and instructor used my wireless gear and a mixer and kept everyone miked and shot 6 more hours of HDV. It just made more sense to do that.

For the next class, I planned to use my FireStore to record it to disk also, to save capturing time. That class was cancelled, so never got the chance.

I think it would be a good thing to look into a FireStore system for yourself. Don't know if they can record exactly the same, 4:2:2 or whatever, as I have never looked into it, but it sure looks like it could simplify your lives.

I'm just trying to show how difficult it is to use the P2 card system. And, unless someone else picks up the system, it will eventually go away maybe. Some other system will take its place.

I do hope you get bigger cards, and I hope that the prices come way down.

Good luck---Mike

Paul,

If you read earlier threads on this forum you'll see that in fact 16gb cards are just around the corner; the exact date hasn't been reset (they were originally scheduled to be released with the now-shipping HPX2000) however by summer they will be out. No word has been given on the 32gb cards yet.

As to Mike's assertion that P2 is difficult and won't last, nothing could be further from the truth. Panasonic's investment in the system isn't a light-hearted test market, they have in point of fact dedicated to moving away from tape-based cameras as shown by the recent and aggressive announcement of 2 new P2 HD bodies.

With only 8gb cards available currently, long form recording has always been a challenge only for the HVX (the ENG bodies have 5 P2 slots) and nobody has disputed that fact, and as such there are alternatives to working with only 2 cards in the camera, many of which are reviewed here on the forum. When the 16 gb cards come out that will change drastically for the HVX.

Let's be clear on what P2 really is: It is intelligent storage, not a codec or format, in fact P2 is format agnostic meaning, it can take whatever format the camera shoots which is anything from DV to DVCPRO-HD - and soon AVC-Intra (on the ENG cameras). HDV on the other hand IS a format/codec and whatever form the camera shoots, you're stuck with.

P2 is here to stay and will become more robust even in the very near future.

I will be giving a presentation on P2 workflows - and a brief overview of the P2 system - at Abel Cine in LA this coming Thursday, Feb 8th. It's an open-house event and all are welcome to attend as it will clarify the facts of P2 and dispel the myths.

Paul,

If you read earlier threads on this forum you'll see that in fact 16gb cards are just around the corner; the exact date hasn't been reset (they were originally scheduled to be released with the now-shipping HPX2000) however by summer they will be out. No word has been given on the 32gb cards yet.

As to Mike's assertion that P2 is difficult and won't last, nothing could be further from the truth. Panasonic's investment in the system isn't a light-hearted test market, they have in point of fact dedicated to moving away from tape-based cameras as shown by the recent and aggressive announcement of 2 new P2 HD bodies.

With only 8gb cards available currently, long form recording has always been a challenge only for the HVX (the ENG bodies have 5 P2 slots) and nobody has disputed that fact, and as such there are alternatives to working with only 2 cards in the camera, many of which are reviewed here on the forum. When the 16 gb cards come out that will change drastically for the HVX.

Let's be clear on what P2 really is: It is intelligent storage, not a codec or format, in fact P2 is format agnostic meaning, it can take whatever format the camera shoots which is anything from DV to DVCPRO-HD - and soon AVC-Intra (on the ENG cameras). HDV on the other hand IS a format/codec and whatever form the camera shoots, you're stuck with.

P2 is here to stay and will become more robust even in the very near future.

I will be giving a presentation on P2 workflows - and a brief overview of the P2 system - at Abel Cine in LA this coming Thursday, Feb 8th. It's an open-house event and all are welcome to attend as it will clarify the facts of P2 and dispel the myths.


I take it all back then! P2 is NOT difficult to work with. Never said it was a codec or anything of that nature. Didn't mean to p*** you off, just to tell a simple story about what I have witnessed myself.

I prefaced my post with the words, "just my opinion," but maybe I should have put them at the end also.

Sorry-----Mike

Relax, Mike, nobody's miffed. This forum exists so that people can express opinion or, share facts. And the facts don't agree with some of your opinions.

Nobody is going to squelch your opinions, but be prepared to have them challenged when they're not fact-based.

Relax, Mike, nobody's miffed. This forum exists so that people can express opinion or, share facts. And the facts don't agree with some of your opinions.

Nobody is going to squelch your opinions, but be prepared to have them challenged when they're not fact-based.

Robert,

The only "fact," that I have been able to find in your post is, "Panasonic's investment in the system isn't a light-hearted test market, and they have in point of fact dedicated to moving away from tape-based cameras as shown by the recent and aggressive announcement of 2 new P2 HD bodies."

The rest "is" your opinion and I do respect it as such. You do seem to be heavily invested in this system, if you are using it and teaching classes etc.. I generally find where there is a need to "clarify the facts of P2 and dispel the myths," that myths tend to originate from some truths.

I just wanted to tell a story for the benefit of some and give my all too humble opinion. I do, in fact, hope that I'm wrong, because I like the system concept, just not the current practicality of it. The fact, that you are still using 8gig P2 cards one and a half years after the cameras introduction is telling to me. I would have thought that if it were cost effective and practical, we would have seen 16gig and 32gig cards already. The fact that ENG cameras have 5 slots only means to me that you’ll be paying big money to fill them.

Maybe I should just edit my other post and keep my opinions to myself. It is still an option for now

Best of luck to you and I hope you get the big cards for a low price very very soon.

I’m out----Mike

Actually, the ensuing debate is one of this forums greatest assets. And there is a difference between debate and back-and-forth ranting, which I can thankfully say this is not. So let me share some facts about P2 - and some of my own history on why I selected it and have become one of it's most vigorous proponents - and hopefully shed some light on the not-so-obvious. First some history:

About 3 years ago when I realized I had to self-publish/produce "Photos in a Flash" it became painfully obvious I was going to have to do my own research & testing and endure a strong learning curve with HD. At that time the HVX had not yet been released and was still "vaporware" although I had been given a lot of technical data from a local retailer who proposed carrying the system. I had my years of commercial print and being a DP on a few films to provide the background for creating visuals but the handheld HD market was still in it's infancy and for the most part an unknown entity in my locale; the HD100 was just about to release, Sony had the Z1 for a few months and both Canon & Panny had not yet joined the fray.

The larger ENG P2 cam had already been out for a little while and gained limited favor with ENG crews and a few production houses. At first P2 didn't make sense to me; there were only 2gb cards (can you imagine trying to use those on an HVX?) and the idea of a $30k+ body with a $15k lens for SD-widescreen just didn't add up, not on my limited budget.

So I trained my sights on HDV and as the cameras came out I tested them all. What became quickly apparent to me was that having to do most all the shooting and editing myself a tapeless workflow was going to be tantamount for quick turnaround edits and an easier archiving methodology. At that time the HD-versioned Firestore was buggier than a poodle in a Florida swamp (it's still not 100%) and with the Z1 wasn't a truly tapeless system (then) since it was only designed to record along with the tape run, so that eliminated it as an option. So that meant that if I really wanted a truly tapeless workflow I only had 2 options: XDCAM or the (then) upcoming HVX and P2.

Initially on paper both P2 and XDCAM seemed near-identical in potential and then realized how limiting - and expensive - XDCAM was going to be. For example: XDCAM is like tape in that you only have 2 options for ingest; either dub out from the camera body or, use a deck - an expensive one. However with P2 I could do those plus use a laptop, a P2 drive or the (then) upcoming P2 Store. And, I could hot-swap during recording and keep things rolling non-stop if recording to a laptop directly wasn't an option.

Then there was the issue of XDCAM being a rotational, spinning media and not solid state; Sony's own published whitepapers address the fact that in non-studio environments (location work) the robustness of the XDCAM media was compromised to a certain degree where it's reusable lifespan was significantly reduced and, head alignment would be required on a regular basis to prevent read/write errors. That from a body starting price of (then) about $20k. So XDCAM started to not make sense.

All of a sudden P2 started to make a lot of sense; tapeless, solid-state, the ability to repair clips, instant access, multiple ingest options, no reduction in reusability etc. etc... Add that to the DVCPRO codec all the cameras shoot and I realized I had a diamond-in-the-rough with the HVX and P2.

Although currently limited to the 8gb cards P2 presents the greatest flexibility and stability of any media type available today whether it's tape, XDCAM or SD/CF-flash based. Yes, long-form projects do present a special challenge for HVX shooters and in many instances the HVX is not best suited to that kind of work - as you pointed out in your story. But not every camera is a good fit for every type of job. I often help out a friend shoot weddings on his duo of Z1's; there's no way we could pull that off as easily with just 2 8gb cards per camera - unless we shot in DV mode which would be pointless.

As mentioned earlier - and in other posts - the 16gb cards were *supposed* to be out now but Panny delayed their release to address some stabiilty issues that arose.

Lastly, don't be put off or defensive about any commentary I may make to rebut anything you - or anyone else - shares on this forum. If we didn't have people challenging us for accurate information this forum would be useless.

The Firestore has been updated so that you can record in Native modes.
Plus it can record direct to DVCPRO HD if you want.
This box now looks like a good deal. I think most HVX owners will get the Firestore as opposed to 16 gig cards.....
P2 cards are still necessary for some work.
Plus the RED is said to be developing a 320 gig Raid drive for $1000
isn't that cheaper than an 8 gig card?

The Firestore isn't a replacement for P2; it's still spinning media which means it can't handle shock and it doesn't offer "repair clip" and a few other P2-specific functions because it's recording through the Firestore software conversion. I have not tested the latest version of the FS4 ProHD but on paper it looks to be a stop-gap between the larger cards. Even the upcoming Cineporter won't be a P2 replacement since it is also spinning media although it looks to be much more robust than the Firestore and because it is designed as a true P2 device it *should* allow for the added P2 functions - time will tell.

The RED concept and it's accessories are a whole new ballgame unto itself and can't be compared to P2, XDCAM - or any other system for that matter. I don't doubt that RED can provide their drive as planned but any "drive" means spinning media with it's issues.

Here's how to put P2 in perspective from both a usability and cost perspective:

Imagine if your PC or Mac replaced all it's internal HDD space with RAM, how costly would that be based on current RAM pricing? Now imagine just how much more stable and robust your computer would be: No spinning platters or heads to worry about, no issues about how fast the platters spin, a greater tempurature variable environment, near-zero latency access times, I/O speeds that would be astronomical by todays standards, and no worries about accidentally bumping the desktop or laptop. Now what if all that RAM were in a RAID array? And what if it had the ability to self-heal as in the "repair clip" function?

P2 currently has a maximum I/O of 640M/bs which surpasses any single drive or even RAID HDD array by far. I have a 12-disk Fibre array for my edit suite; the best I/O speed I can push is about half that of P2.

Here's another perspective: Take a Firestore, RED Drive/Array, XDCAM disk and a P2 card and hold them at shoulder height - then "accidentally" drop them onto the floor - as if you were handing them off to someone else and they missed their grip. Which one do you think is still going to work when you pick it up?

That said, the frustration (and one I share) is that the current 8gb limit hurts only the HVX in it's 2-card acquisition capabilities; the shoulder-mount bodies have 4-5 P2 slots so they don't suffer from this limitation, and until the 16 cards do finally arrive anyone doing long-form on the HVX will be scrambling for alternatives - of which there are, it's up to the individual production needs to decide which one is best suited.

Quite simply, P2 is the most forward-thinking and future-proof media type available today; as RAM pricing falls and the manufacturing process becomes refined P2 will mature into greater capacities for lower costs.

"Just my opinion, but I don't think that the P2 card system is going to last. I don't think it is catching on and that will limit the development of more and bigger cards. It is because of the cost of course. If they can't sell tons of them, they can't afford to put money into development"

well.. umm.. sorry to say, but here in Aus, the ABC just invested $2.5m in a P2 HD system, from cards to cameras to NLE's

P2 currently has a maximum I/O of 640M/bs which surpasses any single drive or even RAID HDD array by far. I have a 12-disk Fibre array for my edit suite; the best I/O speed I can push is about half that of P2.

That's 640 Mbps = 80 MBps, or less than the speed of a decent two-drive HDD RAID. It's impressive but increasingly irrelevant now that good off-the-shelf flash memory cards have consistent write speeds of 20 MBps (160 Mbps), the speed Panasonic engineers say they need to record DVCProHD reliably. So P2 may continue to have a place for the most demanding applications, but that's it.

"Just my opinion, but I don't think that the P2 card system is going to last. I don't think it is catching on and that will limit the development of more and bigger cards. It is because of the cost of course. If they can't sell tons of them, they can't afford to put money into development"

Fortunately that is just your opinion and not the reality. Stay tuned for larger cards and actually ABC Australia is not the only customer. ;-) Take a look at Fox Network in the US. P2 is doing very well. This year is the year of P2.

And Robert since you were mentioning the robustness of no moving parts, I was at a show last week where I threw (hard) the card on the floor, I then stomped on it and then put it back in the camera and it played. ;) I would say, cool. Customers were in disbelief.

All the best,

Jan

Hello Jan,
Good to see you here again.
Robert - of course the Hard drive systems cannot replace P2 100%.
The updated firestore is interesting for interviews etc...
Where the camera is not moving around multiple set-ups.
I do not like recording with a computer...More bad than good can happen there. I know many shooters who would get on with P2 if bigger capacity cards were available. 16 gigs is what 40 min of 720 24pN? That would be great and make the HVX200 really attractive to tape shooters who are not convinced? I still make it fine with only 2 4 gig cards....but I really could have used larger cards last week. The client was getting confused because they have only shot with tape.....I would dump the cards to the hard drive, check and then re-format the card, shoot some new material and then the client would want to see the previous material. I would walk back to the computer and show them the clips. Their heads were spinning because he did not realize that the clips were in essence digitized. And at lunch I edited the good takes together and compressed an H.264 clip that we uploaded to the remote client. That would have been much harder and taken more time if we were tape based.

Just so everyone is clear, the quote in Jan's post actually came from Mike T, not Peter.

...That would have been much harder and taken more time if we were tape based.

My point exactly.

Seriously, anyone who isn't 100% sure of what P2 is, how it works or why it's better than the options should attend the Abel Cine presentation. For those who can't attend I can offer a modified (self-playing) version of the Keynote presentation I created for this session (requires the latest version of iWork '06 - Mac only, sorry).

So ABC Aus is in and FOX here in the US too! Great, they sure have the money for it. Now, please give me the price for a new 16 or 32gig card if I decide to switch cameras. I was surely not talking about networks and the like. I'm talking about the regular consumer/prosumer.

Solid state memory is indeed the way to go and is and will be the future, but will it be P2 cards? That is what I'm concerned with. Someone packages the memory in a different card style and introduces it in a different camera system, and then who decides what we will use, not Panasonic!

Look at the recent history of memory cards and such. Sony memory sticks and Pro memory sticks, MMC/SD cards, Compact Flash cards, Smart Media, and on and on!

Memory is memory and thank God it is getting cheaper to manufacture and buy. But, what if Sony or Canon or someone else jumps into the same market, and you know they will! What if one of the other manufacturers of memory decides to jump in on its own and has a great memory system to sell to camera manufacturers? They could dominate the market. A simple card, a universal socket, and straight forward marketing to camera manufacturers. A winner for a while, just like MiniDV was! MiniDV has lasted a good while now and will hang on a few more years, but it will go by the wayside before long. The difference that I see is that the MiniDV cassette tape and codec was adopted by a consortium of camera manufactures, thereby giving it some weight and a more solid future. Who, besides Panasonic, is building cameras using the P2 card system? There may be some I have not heard of, but none that I know of. Is it proprietary, are they licensing it to other camera makers?

Someone will come along and market to the normal consummer/prosummer/professional and still be there for the network types. When I was at NAB last year, I saw dozens of cameras and systems that are never mentioned here on this forum. And, for good reason, as we will never use them or buy them. They are for the huge networks with seemingly unlimited supplies of money.

I just think that for us, on this forum, the simple truth is that if the cards don’t get real big real soon and cost a lot less, that the P2 system will not be the one we on this forum are using to shoot our independent films, weddings and commercial presentations on a year or two from now.

Solid state memory based systems will be the future, just maybe not P2 at the cost it is now. A quick check finds the price of an 8gig P2 card at B&H at $1,129.95 each. I don’t know what Panasonic’s profit margin is on these cards, Jan?, but if I were Panasonic I would be selling them at cost or below. Otherwise I think that they will be replaced by another.

I have seen a few things come and go in my days.

This is just the humble opinion of a seasoned idiot, stirring up a little controversy. :)

Mike

I just love the spin put on P2 cards as "no moving parts". Well what happens everytime you take a P2 card out of the camera, you're moving the card. That mean a large number of electrical connections are being broken and then remade as the card is plugged into another device to dump the contents. Work out how many times this is done over an 8 hour shoot and the "no moving parts" concept flies out the window.
From my decades of experience no connection system will survive this for very long, a very large part of all computer problems are connection related. Keeping the connectors on the P2 card as clean as possible is going to help, any abrasive grit or corrosive gases will accelerate contact failure.
The design of any connection system that's going to be cycled regularly requires very strict control of the hardness of the contact plating. Get either mating contact different and very quickly the plating is worn off exposing the base metal and that's when oxidisation starts, leading to high contact resistance. Panny might be able to control the contacts in the P2 cards and the cameras but users are plugging the cards into all manner of PCMCIA slots.
Pelican make a range of small cases that house PCMCIA cards very nicely, I'd suggest anyone that's using P2 cards invest in those cases to keep their cards in. Do not put the card into pockets without a cover over the connector, getting any grit or lint inside the socket is not doing the contacts any favours.

Bob,

As Panasonics' white-papers show, the P2 connector, which is a redesigned PCMCIA Type II, has been failure-mode tested to over 30,000 insertion cycles. That comes out to approximately 10 cycles a day for more than 8 years. So it's safe to say that you'll be upgrading the card way before it physically wears out.

This connector has already proven itself in the rugged ENG environment with the first shoulder-mount P2 cam, it's even been in ultra harsh scenarios such as Antarctica, the Mohave Desert and the deep tropics. Granted, no connector could well survive having dirt or liquid heaped on it, but Panny addressed the issue of connection robustness quite well. I can attest to that myself from my in-field, dirty environment usage.

And with respect to the "no moving parts" argument, you can't compare any solid-state device to something with a spinning disk that requires heads, either electromagnetic or optical, to stay in alignment and even to a lesser degree, tape. And taken to it's logical end, your perspective of "movement" would apply to the entire camera itself, not just it's media being physically moved around.

Lets not forget that DSLR's and other digi-still cameras have been using solid state media - SD/CF/XD - for many years well before the inception of P2. I've had the first pro Canon DSLR, the 1D since it's release and I can guarantee it's had more than 10,000 insertion cycles using the same CF cards with nary an issue. In fact I've had the shutter mechanism replaced twice because I wore it out, but the CF receiver and the cards have held up.

The RED concept and it's accessories are a whole new ballgame unto itself and can't be compared to P2, XDCAM - or any other system for that matter. I don't doubt that RED can provide their drive as planned but any "drive" means spinning media with it's issues.

And RED is also supplying a FLASH module as well. They need to supply a more robust means for recording in harsh environments. IMO, I wouldn't trust hard drive recording in lots of situations where we casually accept video tape.

P2 currently has a maximum I/O of 640M/bs which surpasses any single drive or even RAID HDD array by far. I have a 12-disk Fibre array for my edit suite; the best I/O speed I can push is about half that of P2.

Kevin already addressed this, but I just wanted to add to what he said. 640Mbps (80MBytes/sec) is the current maximum advertised for P2 media. But theoretically it could be as fast as 1032Mbps, which is the maximum bandwidth of the 32bit PCMCIA CardBus interface. Even the 1032Mbps (129MBytes/sec) isn't that fast by today's standards. It does surpass what individual hard drives and some small RAID configurations can do, but even as far back as 5 years ago, I had RAID systems pushing over 200MBytes/sec to run multi-stream uncompressed SD through the VideoToaster on Pentium III systems. IMO, P2's biggest shortcoming and eventual downfall will come from the PCMCIA interface... It's obsolete.

Here's another perspective: Take a Firestore, RED Drive/Array, XDCAM disk and a P2 card and hold them at shoulder height - then "accidentally" drop them onto the floor - as if you were handing them off to someone else and they missed their grip. Which one do you think is still going to work when you pick it up?

Bad example. I was standing in the bed of a pickup truck and went to hand someone a P2 card. Thought they had it, it fell and hit pavement from a height of about 6.5ft. ...Dead P2 card. It hit with enough force just being dropped that it physically damaged the corner of the card (opposite the connector end). P2 is robust in its own way because it doesn't have moving parts and extreme temperatures aren't going to bother it in the same way as they would effect hard drive mechanisms. Beyond that, it's just another sensitive electronic device that must be handled with a certain degree of care.

Quite simply, P2 is the most forward-thinking and future-proof media type available today; as RAM pricing falls and the manufacturing process becomes refined P2 will mature into greater capacities for lower costs.

I would agree with that, but I can't for two reasons. One is that P2 pricing has failed to adjust with the rapidly falling prices of the technology on which it is based. Second, it's based on the PCMCIA standard -- a format that is now obsolete in the computer world. It is going to be increasingly difficult to find standard equipment in which to plug in P2 cards -- thus necessitating the use of devices like Panasonic's PCD20 P2 Drive, a P2 "deck" or reading cards via the camera. This isn't a critical issue, but it does begin to drive P2 further into the realm of proprietary interfaces and hardware as time goes on. Of course, we're all expecting products such as a PCMCIA interface that can plug into an ExpressCard slot, but they have been a long time coming and while supposedly in beta testing, are still not available for direct purchase. I'm wondering just how long such a product will stay on the market or a company will be willing to support such a thing. Outside of P2 media, there is very little reason for such a device as most PC peripherals have been updated with ExpressCard equivalents or will soon be. And the ExpressCard versions are usually superior to their PCMCIA predecessors and cost less than the PCMCIA to ExpressCard adapter will. I don't see a significant market force driving such a product.

I just think that for us, on this forum, the simple truth is that if the cards don’t get real big real soon and cost a lot less, that the P2 system will not be the one we on this forum are using to shoot our independent films, weddings and commercial presentations on a year or two from now.

As I've said several times now in various ways, it's a foregone conclusion that P2 memory cards will *not* become a widely used method of recording video for general purposes. It's a dead-end media format for all but a few high-end users, especially now that even Panasonic is talking about shipping an HD camera using standard flash memory cards. Add to that the transition from PCMCIA to ExpressCard technology in laptops (as mentioned by others), and P2 is in a bad position moving forward.

P2 pointed the way to a tapeless future but has been surpassed (for general purposes) by more affordable and more widely available stock memory cards. Standardization and low cost will easily win out over any technological advantages of P2.

IMO, no one has lived up to the promise of either the HVX or P2 technology. The camera's been on the market for more than a year, and the only viable alternative for long-form recording, (short of taking out a second mortgage for a bunch of 8GB cards - and then learning how to juggle), is the FireStore, which was still generating complaints from some buyers up to the latest firmware release. I'm tired of being so restricted.

I find projects are falling behind because no one has filled the void with anything large and reliable- not Panasonic, not Focus Enhancements, and certainly not Shining. SpecComm seems to be the best shot at getting something large and reliable any time soon.

I admit I'm only a tiny, one-man show, and my budget is limited. That's what forces me to wait until something has proven widely reliable. But why is it taking so long? I bought my HVX nearly a year ago. At that time, the web sites involved read like it was already available, even though I couldn't find anyone who had it. Then, when it was, there were stories of problems. Based on posts around forums like this one, even today it seems like there's a 50/50 chance someone would have problems with it. The idea of upgrading any kind of electronic device through firmware is nice, even clever; but the practice seems to require improvement.

What is this "Group Buy List" I've seen mentioned for the Cineporter? And, how does one get on it? Right now, it's got to be that, or wait for the latest FS-100 firmware release to be proven through comments in the forums.

This wasn't meant to be a rant, but my patience is wearing thin after nearly a year for me, and somewhat longer than that for Panasonic to get these things right. I feel like I'm driving an SUV that's limited to a gas tank no larger than the one on my lawn mower: lots of promise for freedom, but almost uselessly-short on utility until the manufacturer perfects a larger tank and I can afford to pay the dealer to obtain - and install - one.

I think it's arguable that some folks just aren't getting the message: it seems clear to me that HVX users want something that will reliably record for greater lengths of time...whether it "spins" or it's solid state. I think they'll live with the former while waiting for the latter, but please, somebody, get us one that is reliable and larger. I'd be happy even if it were only for DV thru DVCPRO50.

Before I continue, let me just say I really, really love the debate. I have never been a part of any other forum that is so absolutely filled to the gills with so many technical and creatively knowledgeable people - ever. This forum rocks.

Now, to Jeff's points:

- Nobody is saying P2 is impervious to damage of any kind, just that it is far more robust than anything else, save another solid-state media. I've had CF cards that were dropped or hit and went bad - nothing is indestructible.

- PCMCIA is obsolete only in the laptop computing world, not the video realm, it's brand new. And as far as compatibility options, do you think XDCAM has more compatibility than P2? You have even less options with that. Will P2 last as long as tape has? Doubtful since the evolution of tech is much faster than 20 years ago, but who knows exactly what the future holds. I certainly don't think P2 is any less viable than Olympus' decision to create XD-type RAM.

To a certain degree P2 can still be considered in it's infancy; it's a brand new media for video acquisition and as such is still finding it's "sea legs" if you will. Is it as widely accepted or as easily compatible as tape today? No, but as Jan has pointed out in short order you'll find the P2 footprint becoming much larger and with greater acceptance in all genres of production.

As I mentioned earlier, I spent literally hundreds of hours researching the differing media types not only for today but for planned future expansion. P2 simply offers the most options - now and later - than any other system.

For example: Can you put an HDV tape into an F900? Or put an XDCAM disk into a Z1? Or how about putting a Varicam tape into an HVX? No, none of that. But you can put the same P2 card in an HVX, shoot whatever codec/frame rate/format you want AND take that same P2 card and put it into any ENG P2 body you want and keep shooting. No other system offers that type of crossover usage or flexibility. Period.

Is P2 perfect? Is it for everyone? Will it compete with RED? No. Not yet. (^_*)

- Nobody is saying P2 is impervious to damage of any kind, - nothing is indestructible.

Maybe not in those exact words, but close! Send me a few to drop and stomp on and we will see how many will survive. Better yet, I'll leave them where my cute little dog can get her teeth on it. You should see what she can do with thumb drives! Always keep back-ups!


For example: Can you put an HDV tape into an F900? Or put an XDCAM disk into a Z1? Or how about putting a Varicam tape into an HVX? No, none of that. But you can put the same P2 card in an HVX, shoot whatever codec/frame rate/format you want AND take that same P2 card and put it into any ENG P2 body you want and keep shooting. No other system offers that type of crossover usage or flexibility. Period.

So I understand that if I buy my new F900 from B&H for $80,000 (without lens or anything else) I can't stick my MiniDV tapes in it! Damn, that does suck! How many P2 card slots does it have?

Are we really talking apples and oranges here? Be forwarned that I know far more about fruit than I do cameras.

:)

Before I continue, let me just say I really, really love the debate. I have never been a part of any other forum that is so absolutely filled to the gills with so many technical and creatively knowledgeable people - ever. This forum rocks.

Can't argue with that... Probably the biggest reason I keep coming back here.

- Nobody is saying P2 is impervious to damage of any kind, just that it is far more robust than anything else, save another solid-state media. I've had CF cards that were dropped or hit and went bad - nothing is indestructible.

Sure... I was just saying that your example of dropping the various media from shoulder height wasn't real good (sorry). Anything can be damaged from being dropped and as you say, nothing is indestructable. You won't get any arguments from me about P2 media being more robust than hard drive storage... In many ways it is. I do a lot of shooting in cold weather and in situations where there's lots of vibrations or potential impact to camera/operator. I refuse to trust/use hard drive recording in these situations. -15F temps are not hard drive friendly, but so far P2 hasn't given me one single problem with the cold. I screwed up a Canon XL1S at -24F - the tape mechanism froze up. My HVX with P2 has handled that sort of cold on multiple occasions.

- PCMCIA is obsolete only in the laptop computing world, not the video realm, it's brand new. And as far as compatibility options, do you think XDCAM has more compatibility than P2?

I did say it was obsolete the in the computer world. ;) But yes, it's now up to Panasonic to continue to push the P2 standard and PCMCIA interface. Computer manufacturers have already written it off and this does create an uphill battle for P2 in some ways. Two years ago, any notebook computer you bought could mate up with a P2 card. Today it requires a crappy second-hand notebook or some junk model that's on the clearance table. Tomorrow we'll have to use oddball adapters or more video-industry proprietary hardware. I wish that weren't the case, but it is. As for XD media, they have a chance to go the other way... XD discs are essentially MPEG2 BluRay media. We'll have to see where that takes it, but being in that plastic shell or caddy restricts it from dropping into conventional BD players. Current XD decks / players are very expensive, so I think XD has it's own set of issues. I also don't feel that XD Professional Discs are any more robust than hard drive media. It's a rotating disc platter, only optical tech rather than magnetic, and is still vulnerable to shock and vibration as well as extreme temperatures.

As I mentioned earlier, I spent literally hundreds of hours researching the differing media types not only for today but for planned future expansion. P2 simply offers the most options - now and later - than any other system.

Hmmm... As far as media itself goes, perhaps. Too bad the price is out of wack right now in relation to capacity. Camera products that use P2 media are still a whole different discussion entirely. My HVX200 still continues to impress me in many ways, but also disappoints in many ways too. How P2 evolves over the next several months will influence my decision on whether or not I keep the HVX200. If I can upgrade to 32GB or larger P2 media this year for a reasonable and competitive price, then great. If not, I will probably dump the HVX200 altogether. Current 8GB cards are overpriced and inconvenient for a lot of what I do these days. 16GB cards would be nice, but aren't going to solve all the issues and I will probably pass on them in favor of 32GB or 64GB P2 media.

I am planning to acquire RED, but that is still a moving target and even once it's here, I will still have need for a camera like the HVX200 or something more oriented to ENG purposes that can also fill a secondary role to the RED One. The HVX200 with a 35mm adapter and a nice set of Nikkor lenses is a powerful tool. I would prefer not parting with it just yet and some of the other offerings coming up like the HPX500 are more broadcast oriented and not quite what I'm looking for. I'd love an updated HVX200 with a higher-res sensor block, an interchangeable lens mount and AVCHD or IntraHD recording to P2. 2 P2 slots are still fine if they can get the capacities up.

Is P2 perfect? Is it for everyone? Will it compete with RED? No. Not yet. (^_*)

No, I'm not expecting P2 to ever be perfect or saying that it should be. It's not for everyone... As for RED, it's probably not even proper to use it for comparison... Although it keeps coming up and that's partially my fault too. RED still has yet to prove itself, although I have full confidence in them due to who's backing it and who's developing it... If RED were associated with just about anyone else, I would probably have an entirely different outlook. But it's a different camera with different purposes and targeted at a different market. It's a cinema camera, designed to compete with the likes of the Genesis or the Arri D20. The body itself is a lot cheaper than its competitors, but in the scheme of things, that's not going to make or break a studio or an individual production. I don't have to wait for RED, I can rent a Genesis or a D20 right now and get incredible digital cinema results... Rentals of those units are still cheaper than purchasing RED... RED affords me the opportunity to OWN the camera outright... Beyond that, it still remains a new product that must prove itself and will undoubtedly have its share of growing pains. As for how RED fits in with P2 tech, it's hard to say... They have a FLASH module, but formats are still in development and we don't know if it will use proprietary media or even off the shelf media. It may even make some small bit of sense for RED to jump on the P2 bandwagon if 64GB cards can enter production this year for a reasonable price.

So I understand that if I buy my new F900 from B&H for $80,000 (without lens or anything else) I can't stick my MiniDV tapes in it! Damn, that does suck! How many P2 card slots does it have?

B&H sells the F900? Hehe... That would be funny if they did.

For example: Can you put an HDV tape into an F900? Or put an XDCAM disk into a Z1? Or how about putting a Varicam tape into an HVX? No, none of that. But you can put the same P2 card in an HVX, shoot whatever codec/frame rate/format you want AND take that same P2 card and put it into any ENG P2 body you want and keep shooting. No other system offers that type of crossover usage or flexibility. Period.

Doesn't the high-end Firestore drive work with the HVX200 and most HDV cameras plus any DV camera, with the potential to be adapted to future formats? That sounds like a much more flexible solution to me, with longer recording times and significantly lower cost per hour of recording. Meanwhile, you've got everything from Grass Valley Infinity to consumer-priced AVCHD cameras starting to use standard flash memory cards for video recording, which shows where we're heading as flash prices continue to plummet while capacity increases. There's no way P2 can hope to compete against either of these options for anything but niche purposes. If Panasonic ships their AVC-intra camera using non-P2 memory, that should about be the end of P2 as a forward-looking format.

P.S. Can you put a P2 card in an HDV camera or a Varicam or an XDCAM HD or Grass Valley Infinity or "Red"? Hardly a crossover media type.

B&H sells the F900? Hehe... That would be funny if they did.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=472412&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

Doesn't the high-end Firestore drive work with the HVX200 and most HDV cameras plus any DV camera, with the potential to be adapted to future formats?...

P.S. Can you put a P2 card in an HDV camera or a Varicam or an XDCAM HD or Grass Valley Infinity or "Red"? Hardly a crossover media type.

The Firestore is a third-party device and again can't be compared to solid-state media. And both the crossover and adaptablility comparison is made within the same-brand config. There is no other media native-to-the-brand system that works with both the handheld and ENG-type bodies.

Mike - the F900 doesn't shoot HDV, it's shoots HDCAM, DVCAM or DV (?). The HVX shoots every codec/format it's bigger P2 brothers do, no other system can match that. The F330/350 shoots HDV, but at a different bitrate than the Z1/FX1 and it's a totally different media - discs, not tape. No crossover.

The Firestore is a third-party device and again can't be compared to solid-state media. And both the crossover and adaptablility comparison is made within the same-brand config. There is no other media native-to-the-brand system that works with both the handheld and ENG-type bodies.

HDV (DV) tape works with everything from the Sony HC1 to JVC HD250U to Canon XL-H1, and is backwards compatible with every DV camera including ENG models (assuming they can take the small tapes). Firestore is even more flexible and works across brands because it's not a proprietary product like P2. Standard flash memory will replace P2 for most suitable purposes because it offers the same basic functionality at lower cost and without the proprietary limitations. P2 is a non-starter for anyone who hasn't already invested in it, end of story.

HDV (DV) tape works with everything from the Sony HC1 to JVC HD250U to Canon XL-H1, and is backwards compatible with every DV camera including ENG models (assuming they can take the small tapes). Firestore is even more flexible and works across brands because it's not a proprietary product like P2. Standard flash memory will replace P2 for most suitable purposes because it offers the same basic functionality at lower cost and without the proprietary limitations. P2 is a non-starter for anyone who hasn't already invested in it, end of story.

...and you're still talking about tape and spinning disc media, not solid-state tapeless. End of that story. (laughs)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=472412&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

Yes thats about $80,000 more than my HVX set-up.
At the price points of the HVX you have to look at the
system. Does it work? Does it deliver results?
Can I produce better work than what I was using?
The whole argument about what is better is kinda moot.
I paid $36,000 for my first BetaCam in 1985. It was obsolete
when BetaSP came out. Then it was DigiBeta, then DVCAM
then 16:9......P2 is here and now and plenty of people are using
it with obsolete G4 laptops....
In a few years we will probably get HD on a 4 gig affordable
flash card....

...and you're still talking about tape and spinning disc media, not solid-state tapeless. End of that story.

If you read what I wrote again you'll see I said that standard flash memory is what will take over what P2 started, but at more affordable prices. Tape and HDD recording are the current affordable recording options and are much more widely used than P2 for that reason, but will probably give way eventually to flash. P2 is mainly useful for high-end purposes for companies with deep pockets, and will not get beyond that before flash moves in.

In a few years we will probably get HD on a 4 gig affordable flash card....

You mean like Panasonic announced today?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85746

If you read what I wrote again you'll see I said that standard flash memory is what will take over what P2 started, but at more affordable prices. Tape and HDD recording are the current affordable recording options and are much more widely used than P2 for that reason, but will probably give way eventually to flash. P2 is mainly useful for high-end purposes for companies with deep pockets, and will not get beyond that before flash moves in.

Time will tell and I'm anxious to see exactly how things develop. With RED shaking up the entire industry you can bet that people in both Sony and Panny houses are watching closely just whose concepts are getting more traction - and which producers find more cost-effective/useful/etc.

Here's something that will throw a monkey wrench in the entire media/camera/format scenario:

P+S Technik the makers of the Mini-35 makes what they call a "Directors Finder" which is a Mini-35 scaled down to work with Handycam-form factor DV cameras and use the same lenses and give the same shallow DOF capabilities. Now, what would happen if you took that exact setup and adapted it to work with the newly announced AVCHD Panny cameras? Just how good looking would footage be - with good lighting/composition - from that "non-pro" rig? And how easy will the footage be to edit using the new codec/format?

I plan to find out.

You mean like Panasonic announced today?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85746

Yes, I didn't know that was posted.

http://panasonic.biz/sav/news/070117/AG-HSC1U.jpg

The Firestore is a third-party device and again can't be compared to solid-state media. And both the crossover and adaptablility comparison is made within the same-brand config. There is no other media native-to-the-brand system that works with both the handheld and ENG-type bodies.

Thank goodness for third party devices! It is what pushes the limits and the markets! I'm certainly not constrained by "same-brand" restraints. I am not concerned with staying "native-to-the-brand!" "Handheld and ENG-type" does not matter to me. What does is cost, usability and viability in the future. The Panasonic camera is great, small sensor and pixil shift or whatever there is and all! Great image! I am not knocking the camera or the company, period! My only statement is best described as "P2 is too expensive, too small, and not going to survive the future developments in memory storage." I commend Panasonic for their efforts in paving the way to the future, BUT, all on their own it is not going to make it!

Mike - the F900 doesn't shoot HDV, it's shoots HDCAM, DVCAM or DV (?). The HVX shoots every codec/format it's bigger P2 brothers do, no other system can match that. The F330/350 shoots HDV, but at a different bitrate than the Z1/FX1 and it's a totally different media - discs, not tape. No crossover.

You can't knock all other cameras and manufactures just by saying they can't shoot the same format as the Pani. Why is Panasonic the only right or correct camera? It is not! I got into my Canon XLH1 because I had many accessories for it and the XL system. It may not be the best camera in its nitch market, but it was the best for me at this time! I had a 16x manual lens and a 3x lens for it, many batteries and tons of other accessories! I would not make a claim that it is the best camera in its class, but it was the best for me. MiniDV may not be the best, but it is the best for me right now.

You are basically saying that the Panasonic camera is best because of the P2 system. That simply is not true! And, when or if P2 does not pan out and become cheap enough for all to use, it will be a big problem. Can you say orphan! Sorry, but it could be just that bad.

When I see P2 card slots in the new Sony's, JVC's and Canon's I will agree with you and jump on board. But, I think I can keep my legs curled up on my couch.

Sorry, but I am not knocking Panasonic or its camera, but I just don't think P2 is the furture you think it is.

Mike

Here's something that will throw a monkey wrench in the entire media/camera/format scenario:

P+S Technik the makers of the Mini-35 makes what they call a "Directors Finder"Here's a link: http://www.pstechnik.de/en/digitalfilm-vdf35.php

I see that they've had this since 2001: http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Masked-Engineer/f-MO-Mario-Awards.shtml

Any idea of the price? And will it handle Nikon lenses? The site says "Available mounts: Arri PL, Panavision, Bayonet and BNC-R", but I don't know what I would need to do to get from here to there.

Mike, it's not about the "which system/camera" is better nonsense, because that's all about personal preference, shooting style, typical production needs etc. My point about P2 is that for what it is and what it can do within just one brand of camera nothing else matches it's performance, robustness or versatility. You've made it plainly clear time and again you're not a P2 "believer" for lack of a better term, which makes no difference one way or the other to me, but even just from a non-predjuidicial viewpoint you have to admire Panny's aggressive launch towards a platform that many - like yourself - just don't get. Sony went through (and is still fighting unbelievers) on XDCAM and I'm sure RED is dealing with the same resistance to it's bold approach.

It is what it is - "that's my story and I'm sticking to it".

Jon,

I don't know the pricing for the finder, but logic dictates it can't be near the $10k starting price for the Mini-35. I just really enjoy the idea of a palm-sized camera having film-like DOF - and shooting HD to solid-state media no less. That just make me giddy.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=472412&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

Holy shneikies!

When did that happen??? Cool though, didn't know they sold it. Not that I'm planning to buy one.

Please stop with this "solid state" thing. as soon as you eject that card out and pop it into your old G4. disks start to whirl around and move your media. after you have moved your footage over to some sort of consumer harddrive you then wipe your footage from the "solid state" device and push it back into the camera slot. I bet I can drop a whole box of XD disks and not worry about a single frame. Can you say that about your ext fire wire drive?
Also any Panasonic P2 deck with the same functions as the XD deck is gonna run about the same price.
And how does Panasonic tell you to archive your project " just lay it back to tape" or "burn it to disk."
Why don't you just "burn it to disk " at the start and skip all of those other steps.

Then again, I don't do a hand held fight scene with a G4, and most people don't edit with XD discs.

IF your camera is in rough conditions, then solid state makes a difference - that is IF you have enough capacity to store your stuff before moving the video to a hard drive.

But that's the deal isn't it? One person's workflow works well with P2 cards, while the next person's doesn't. If P2 isn't right for your workflow, then don't use it! If P2 is right for somebody else's workflow, don't knock it...

So the original question - will 16gb cards be avaialble this year - has been answered many times over and in the process this thread has taken on a life of it's own.

We've all debated methods, tech and pondered the future, let's put this thread to rest and consider the question answered - and then some. End of thread.

Chris?

My point about P2 is that for what it is and what it can do within just one brand of camera nothing else matches it's performance, robustness or versatility.

That's fine, but the point you're missing is that P2 is old news and will soon be upstaged by non-P2 flash memory solutions - even within the Panasonic brand line. As is often the case, expensive technologies tend to lose out to more affordable solutions unless there's a compelling reason for the expensive option to become mainstream, which P2 doesn't have. P2 pointed the way to a flash-based future but won't be the method of implementing that for most of us.

Mike, it's not about the "which system/camera" is better nonsense, because that's all about personal preference, shooting style, typical production needs etc. My point about P2 is that for what it is and what it can do within just one brand of camera nothing else matches it's performance, robustness or versatility.

I never made a comment on which camera or system is better. My comments have been directed toward the P2 system, or more specifically the cards themselves. Your statements are about a specific camera/system.

You've made it plainly clear time and again you're not a P2 "believer" for lack of a better term, which makes no difference one way or the other to me, but even just from a non-predjuidicial viewpoint you have to admire Panny's aggressive launch towards a platform that many - like yourself - just don't get.

Robert, you obviously take this personally, or at least it does "make a difference to you one way or the other." That's why this will be my last post on this topic.

I do admire Panasonic's attempt to introduce a new system! Again and again I have said that I don't dislike the system or the cameras! What I have said is that the lack of real progress in increasing card size and reducing card cost is going to keep it from being adopted as a standard except within Panisonic's own systems. Something or someone will jump in with another system or another storage media. That's my opinion...

Whatever system or systems or media does finally take root and stick, has one other big obstical to overcome and it this is a real toughie! Are you ready for this: The price must eventually come down low enough for us to be able to record on the media and stick on the shelf and keep it!!!!!!! That price can be a lot more than what a MiniDV tape costs now, but no where near what a P2 card costs. Having that footage on your hard drive and loosing it will hurt bigtime. Remember those drives with all of the moving parts and things to go wrong, whirling discs and shock vulnerable and all the other things we have said about them in the thread!?!? Yup, they do fail. I had a drive fail last week and lost some of my footage from DVC#7. That was the one I won! I normally keep my tapes, but since I only used a couple of minutes on the tape, I reused it. My error, my fault, but it points out a problem that any new solid state media will have. That is the loss of the original footage everytime you must reuse the card. We will accept that risk for now, but eventually we will want something to keep. Even at say a hundred bucks a card, you could afford to put them away and keep it if you have something special. But not at $1,200 a card, and only a few minutes. Panasonic should be selling the cards as low as possible, which may indeed be the case. You don't want to use the printer system, where they will basically give you the printer if you just buy their ink cartriges.

My last statement is what I was trying to say, maybe poorly, in the beginning. The problem with the P2 system right now is one of card size and card price. One is way too small and the other is way to large. When that is reversed, then we will have a system to move forward with.

I"m done, and sorry if this got too far out.

Mike

I think, IMHO, that P2 is a great idea , no capture time - can fail tho. Tape has all the capture time issues associated with it - can fail tho. The DTD devices, like P2 get around the capture issuses - can fail tho....

I would love to use P2, but didn't have the budget to stretch for a laptop to offload P2's in the field. Of all the formats, I think this one is the best. IMO. In a way I'm glad I didn't go with P2 a year ago, as I'd be equally frustrated about the P2 size/price ratio as many in this thread are. As for DTD's they are simply over-priced hard drives.

We'll all laugh someday when a 250gb P2 card will be bought for $150. A few years ago who'd a thought we'd be buying 750gb hard drives for around $150 today!!

It seems that there are no correct/perfect solutions. Go with what suits you now that you should go with.

Andrew

Wow, so many points of view here. I really hope P2 lasts for the future. I could really see this formats future going both ways.

The way I see it, an hdv camcorder is basically a minidv camcorder that shoots hd, with maybe a couple added issues depending on equipment/workflow. Comparing the hvx to any other camcorder in this price range in terms of format is a non issue imoa.

Will p2 last? Definitely for right now. I think there are enough people who want to shoot dvcpro hd right now and in the near future to at least sustain this format for a while. I doubt most users will be transfering a p2 card from a hvx and putting it into a larger pro cam, so it isn't the cross compatibility that will prolong this format.

Will we see other solid state media come to the video scene? Yes, but in what time. For now, we need larger capacity and cheaper storage. Panasonic isn't really achieving this at this moment. I think Grass Valley's infinity is a fascinating item. Could we see a smaller prosumer cam use the same removable drives and be capable of shootin to various formats? That would be really cool in my mind. Will AVCHD eventually take over at some kind of a pro level? It certainly looks this way. What about a camera that can write to multiple compact flash or sd mem cards simultaniously?

My point: Who knows what the future holds? Right now, it looks like most companies are overcomming storage capacities with more compression for right now. Panasonic is in the minority, and pushing a format that is ahead of its time. I wouldn't be surprized if dvcpro hd is displaced by a newer codec in the near future. The good news is you'll still be able to use your P2 cards with the new format, at least lets hope so.

Me, I would like to see a company come out with a non-proprietary solid state memory format. For right now I'll wait for the future and will be shooting minidv and hdv for a few more years.

I think, IMHO, that P2 is a great idea , no capture time - can fail tho.

P2 has a significant capture (transfer) time unless you plan to edit directly from the cards, which most people aren't doing because the cards are too expensive to use that way. That's another reason standard flash memory will push P2 aside, because it will more quickly get to throw-away cheap so you can just leave your data on the cards.

As far as fail-safe recording is concerned, the best way to ensure that is to record simultaneously to both a primary and backup solution. Can P2-based cameras do that? How much would it cost per minute to record HD content to two P2 cards in parallel?

We'll all laugh someday when a 250gb P2 card will be bought for $150.

Maybe so, but generic flash memory will be much cheaper per GB at any given point in time. I just checked Amazon.com and found a SanDisk Extreme III CompactFlash card with 12 GB capacity (!) and 20 MB/sec throughput selling for just under $400, while more modest 8 GB CompactFlash cards were under $100. The best price I could find for an 8GB P2 card is $1125. That leaves little left to discuss here; P2's days are numbered for anything but the most demanding applications.

I know we're flogging a dead horse with this whole discussion, but I'm in complete agreement with Kevin. Standard FLASH formats are going to push P2 aside rather quickly... Many manufacturers (Panasonic included!) are already releasing HD camcorders that use off-the-shelf FLASH memory. I just bought a bunch of 150X 8GB Transcend CF cards for $89 each. They claim a 20MB/s write speed and 26MB/s read. I've found they're not quite that fast in reality, more like 16MB/s write sustained and about 22MB/s read sustained. Anyway, I use those with my DSLRs and often hand over the CF card to the client as part of the deal when the shoot or project is completed.

Already demonstrated at CES, we will see CF cards in the 32GB and 64GB capacities this year and write speeds rated in excess of 30MB/s. ExpressCard storage which is standardized, no drivers, in capacities up to 128GB and transfer speeds as high as 100MB/s and all the benefits of P2 and then some. There will also be SATA interface FLASH drives with capacities as high as 256GB by year's and even faster transfer rates in both 1.8" and 2.5" drive sizes.

If Panasonic wants P2 to survive beyond a niche produce in their broadcast and pro camera lines, then they need to adopt an entirely different business model surrounding P2. They can't continue to undercut P2 with their consumer product lines that use off the shelf storage tech... Consumer and Prosumer camera lines will continue to blur. And they can't continue to overcharge for P2 media when the only special or unique thing about it is the fact that it's what their prosumer/pro cameras use. P2 offers no advantages, none, nada, zilch over upcoming ExpressCard and even PCMCIA based FLASH products to be shipping this year at what will undoubtedly be a fraction of the cost.

I used a Pani H200 a couple a days before the new year in New York. It is annoying to have to use those cards. They run out fast. And as far as the Hard Drive hack its too much trouble. Tapes are easier. Thats why Sony's HD cam will do better even if there is no Advanced pulldown. Heck really that Advanced crap is a bit unneccisary. Many filmmakers have stated that the Advanced feature (introduced on the 100A) was causing them some problems. Thats because Pani hyped it up and everyone opened there check book and sold their original 100's on Ebay. There were some changes but none sufficient enough to sell your 100. And another thing videography companies revolve around the hype too. Some wont hire you now if you don't have a 100B. Ridiculous. Pani always comes up with a way to milk you for cash. Thats why I prefer Sony. Heck I still use a VX1000 along with the 100A (Only Pani brought/didn't buy 100 but would have if known the truth) The cards are a ripoff and us the Con/Prosumer are being hoodwinked. Wait for the cards to either go down drastically in price or for the next HD Pani Cam to have the option to shoot HD on tape or FLASH.

Man.......... this is a 'tough' crowd! ;-)

As a very interested "bystander" I can say I've waited (and will continue to wait) on an HVX purchase primarily due to the capture issues. i.e. price and capacity.

IMHO, the pace of price/capacity improvement has not been very impressive so far and not enough to make me jump yet. :-(. If Pani could get 64 GB cards out this year for ~~ $1K then they would have me for a customer. I certainly won't be holding my breath for that one though. :-(

Regards
JohnG