I have been videotaping a lot of my daughter's cheer competitions, and usually I tap off the line outputs of the audio board for the music (I use Senn wireless 100 unit to xmit to my videocam), and mix with my on-cameral mic in post. However, this only gives me mono music, and I would much prefer stereo. I have a second Senn 100, and could xmit the other stereo channel to my camera using that, but then I lose the ambient for mixing. Any suggestions (and, at the very least, any suggestions for taking my mono music track and making it "sound" like stereo). Thanks much.

There's a few "stereoizer" VST plugins floating around. Look on Voxengo or MDA.
Ozone will also do the trick...which is to put a small bit of phase error on one channel...does wonders for opening up mono to simulate stereo.

There's a few "stereoizer" VST plugins floating around. Look on Voxengo or MDA.
Ozone will also do the trick...which is to put a small bit of phase error on one channel...does wonders for opening up mono to simulate stereo.


Bill, thanks very much. I tried the Voxengo plug in in Premiere Pro, and it worked beautifully. What is MDA? I tried googling it, but came up with nothing. Thanks again!

The way I do this is to get a copy of the original music and lay that in.
Easy enough to sync it up by matching waveforms, unless the camera has AGC turned on, then it can a bit more tricky having to do it by ear.

Hi Ken

No need for a plug-in with Prem Pro. Have background audio on Track 1. Capture Senn Mic as separate track ( Eg. Scenalyser ). Note if this is a left or right channel ( depending on CH3 or CH 4 i/p to your camera ). Import to Audio track 2 on timeline. Use the fill left / fill right commands from effects, to fill the 'other' channel with the same mono track. Not stereo, but does fill left and right channels equally and in sync with the background. Mix tracks 1 and 2 as appropriate to your production.

Hope this helps, as an easier alternative.

Steve

Most video cameras record in stereo.

Why not record the performance with the on camera mic, which gives you a lot of ambient room sounds as well as audience reaction?

Get a line feed to a stand alone audio recorder and record the program .

Get a copy of any music (in stereo) on CD.

Sync them all in you NLE, and choose which audio tracks are the most appropriate at the appropriate times.

I do this all the time with similar live performances, and it works quite well.

Hi Ken

No need for a plug-in with Prem Pro. Have background audio on Track 1. Capture Senn Mic as separate track ( Eg. Scenalyser ). Note if this is a left or right channel ( depending on CH3 or CH 4 i/p to your camera ). Import to Audio track 2 on timeline. Use the fill left / fill right commands from effects, to fill the 'other' channel with the same mono track. Not stereo, but does fill left and right channels equally and in sync with the background. Mix tracks 1 and 2 as appropriate to your production.

Hope this helps, as an easier alternative.

Steve
Steve I think what you describe is pretty much what I do. I tap the audio board with my wireless Senn (and send to ch 1 on my cam), and record ambient with an on camera shotgun (and send to ch 2 on cam). In post, I then copy the audio track, left fill on one, and right fill on the other, then mix. Is this what you describe? Anyway, I just didn't like the "flat" sound I was getting from the mono (both channel outputs are identical with the method I describe above), so I wanted to introduce a stereo sound to give a bit more spatial aspect to the audio.

Most video cameras record in stereo.

Why not record the performance with the on camera mic, which gives you a lot of ambient room sounds as well as audience reaction?

Get a line feed to a stand alone audio recorder and record the program .

Get a copy of any music (in stereo) on CD.

Sync them all in you NLE, and choose which audio tracks are the most appropriate at the appropriate times.

I do this all the time with similar live performances, and it works quite well.

I was thinking of doing as you describe, but I don't have a separate audio recorder. I am pondering purchasing a Tascam HD-P2 for the audio recording. Any thoughts on it?

Last week, I used my new Tascam P2 to record a series of comedy shows for an upcoming television special. It worked flawlessly. I mixed an audience stereo pair with the comics Shure Beta 58 and the results were fantastic. This was a three camera shoot, so I locked the Tascam to the time code box and all worked very well. That Tascam is one sweet recorder.

Get a copy of any music (in stereo) on CD.

There's no way you'll be able to get everyone's music, especially for cheer performances, although if you're only filming just your daughter, you may be able to talk to her coach.

Does the P2 do drop frame recording?

Does the P2 do drop frame recording?

Yes, it has multiple frame rate settings including 29.97 DF and 29.97 ND.

I'm gonna have to get one now...I'm all about that..

Steve I think what you describe is pretty much what I do. I tap the audio board with my wireless Senn (and send to ch 1 on my cam), and record ambient with an on camera shotgun (and send to ch 2 on cam). In post, I then copy the audio track, left fill on one, and right fill on the other, then mix. Is this what you describe? Anyway, I just didn't like the "flat" sound I was getting from the mono (both channel outputs are identical with the method I describe above), so I wanted to introduce a stereo sound to give a bit more spatial aspect to the audio.

Hi Ken

From your earlier post you described using a separate plugin - the method I described uses the in built func of PPro. From what you describe, you are recording 2 mono channels and trying to get a stero mix..... ??? What I normally do is have the front shotgun record on stereo ( into CH1 & CH2 ), and then I have 2 further separate mono channels on the camera. The senn100 sends a mono feed to CH3 and I use this in post to fill left/right and then mix the 2 tracks together. Of course if you do have that 2nd Senn, you could space them out in the room, and send 1 to CH3, 1 to CH4 and then mix the stereo pair with the stereo shotgun, in post.

PS Adobe Audition gives you the flexibility to play around with the spartial settings, if you have that program.

Steve

...What I normally do is have the front shotgun record on stereo ( into CH1 & CH2 ), and then I have 2 further separate mono channels on the camera. The senn100 sends a mono feed to CH3 and I use this in post to fill left/right and then mix the 2 tracks together. Of course if you do have that 2nd Senn, you could space them out in the room, and send 1 to CH3, 1 to CH4 and then mix the stereo pair with the stereo shotgun, in post...


Don't you have to drop down to 12-bit audio to record 4 tracks on the tape? For dialog it's not such a big deal but for music doesn't this seriously compromise the quality?

I was thinking of doing as you describe, but I don't have a separate audio recorder. I am pondering purchasing a Tascam HD-P2 for the audio recording. Any thoughts on it?

Anything that records audio digitally should work. I don't know the Tascam, though I should probably look into it. I cuurently use an iRiver mp3 recorder.

Don't you have to drop down to 12-bit audio to record 4 tracks on the tape? For dialog it's not such a big deal but for music doesn't this seriously compromise the quality?
Yes, the recording has to be made in 12-bit 32KHz mode, in order to record all 4 tracks separately on the tape. My use of the Senn is to record mainly speech, but I have recorded the odd disco set at 12bit, and to be honest the quality is fine for Wedding DVD production. I guess you would want to record 16bit if the production was a music promotion demo or something similar. ( CD Quality ).

I guess you have to work within the constraints of the equipt you have and the final use of the material. If you wanted to record 16bit via the Senn, still have 16bit ambient from the on board mic, then you would require a separate tape deck and mix this in post. The original poster didnt have this setup, and I guess the application didnt call for purchase of additional equipt. It's all about 'compromise', as you say.

Could a user record part of the day at 12bit when the Senn's are required, and then switch to 16bit for any music parts, eg disco? The proj would have to be 16bit, but would have 12 bit audio inside. Would this render ok? I think the 'popping' occurs when you import 16 bit audio into a 12 bit project??

There was a recent post on these forums ( think it was these ones.... but I could be wrong, as I read several ), discussing 12bit vs 16bit, which is worth the read.

Here is a cheap solution:

1 minidisc recorder and 1/8" stereo miniplug to stereo rca, plus what ever adapters you may need.

You used to be able to get a minidisc recorder at wal mart or similar location for like $130. Add another $15 for adapters and your all set.

Grab the feed from the board to the recorder and a feed to your camera, like you were doing and match wave forms in post.

Also, if you don't like the minidisc workflow, there are a number of flash media recorders at various price points that will do the same thing. I wouldn't record four channel audio if you are worried about sound quality though.

Regards,

Greg

It would definately not be practical for me to obtain all of the original CDs for each cheer routine, so I am biting the bullet and buying Tascam HD-P2

Now, here's question. Is there any reason I couldn't tap the left line-out of the audio board to one of my Senns, and tap the right line-out of the audio board to my second Senn, and send each Senn output to each channel of my video camera? This should give me true stereo, but the downside is that I get no ambient for mixing (that I usually get using my on-camera shotgun). Thanks.

It would definately not be practical for me to obtain all of the original CDs for each cheer routine, so I am biting the bullet and buying Tascam HD-P2

Now, here's question. Is there any reason I couldn't tap the left line-out of the audio board to one of my Senns, and tap the right line-out of the audio board to my second Senn, and send each Senn output to each channel of my video camera? This should give me true stereo, but the downside is that I get no ambient for mixing (that I usually get using my on-camera shotgun). Thanks.

That would work ... maybe. I say that because it depends on where you can get the output from the house board. If you tap off of the main outputs your levels going to the wireless transmitters and thus to the camera will go up and down as the board op rides gain, not conducive to good audio recording. If the board can be set up so you're using outputs from an auxilliary mix bus or has pre-fader inserts in the main bus that you can use as direct outs then you'll be okay.