Hey, any one know if you could hook the HV 20 up to the red rock micro? That would be an awesome and cheap alternative. For say about $3000.00, cheaper than even buying just the A1, you could have a great lens option on a nifty 24p HDV cam.

Will this combo work?

just had some time to read through the press&previews. in short, this is incredibly awesome!!! 1080p24 under $1,000

i mean talk about innovation/technological advances! we definitely live in interesting times. 1920x1080p24 at an affordable price!!! people can gobble it up and shoot multi-cams easily heh heh heh >).

think of the impact it'll have on MANY, MANY industries fiction and nonfiction video shooting requirements!!! this is awesome! hurray!!!!

next step: HD DVD/BluRay universal burners @20USD =).

Plus it isn't 1080 just for the sake of 1080, it's good 1080 + 24p, if the HV10 is any indication. Can't wait.

Why is it that no one is complaining that this camcorder doesn’t have a focusing ring around the lens? Unless you’re transferring your footage to film, that feature is infinite times more important than 24p for small independent productions. Even the Optura have a focusing ring around the lens. Both Sony and Canon should stop replacing it with a tiny focusing dial that is very awkward to use.

I have never talked good about a JVC camcorder before but the only camcorder with excellent manual controls this year is the GZ-HD7. Besides, a replacement for the GL2 is way overdue.

You just did. :-) Yeah, a focus ring would be great. LANC would be great, too. Otherwise, I really like the features of this camera. But I think I can live without those two. This is a fantastic camera for guerrilla shooting - hand-held run and gun.
I'm in preproduction on an indie horror short, and this camera will be great for that. I've been wondering how I could afford an A1 by June... I think I can afford this. Whoo Boy. I may finally have a replacement for my Optura Pi.

(My workhorse is still a GL2... someday to be replaced by an A1 or A2...)

i think the targetted market is consumer point+shoot and not prosumers/amateur filmmakers.

Right, this is a very consumer oriented camera that just happens to do 24p for some reason, only Canon knows. I think the reason no one is complaining about a focus ring is that Canon seems to have put so much in already at such a low price.

Plus the multi-function dial that you would use for manual focus is very close to the position of a focus ring, it's not in an awkward position. So it remains to be seen, it could be an okay way to focus.

I'd say this is a 'transition' camera: part consumer and part prosumer. I bet some people will make very good 'films' with this camera.

FYI: Check out David Lynch's recent interviews regarding his use of run-gun HW. Just goes to show that all pros don't need/want big-complicated cameras. This HV20 would fall into a nice niche category for run-gun applications.

Regards
JohnG

Right, this is a very consumer oriented camera that just happens to do 24p for some reason, only Canon knows.

You could be right, but I'll bet that many, if not most, will be sold to Canon owners with other HD cameras to use as decks and b-roll cameras. Mine will be used for that. Another plus, an HD camera to keep with you in the car at all times for that one time shot. Mine will be in my car and no, I will not give you my address! :)


Mike

Unfortunately I don't think you'll ever see a LANC jack on any consumer Canon camcorder anymore (pretty sure they just got tired of paying that licensing fee to Sony). Canon seem to have relegated LANC to the realm of three-chip "professional" camcorders only.
The lack of a LANC jack is what will keep this camera from ever being fit inside a serious pro housing. Two of the top three housing companies, Light & Motion and Amphibico, utilize the SONY LANC for their electronic controls on their u/w housings - looks like this camera will be relegated to plex housings and I doubt Gates will consider this camera as well.

How many of your normal video camera consumers, shopping at Wal-mart Best Buy or someplace like that even know what 24p is? Probably not many. So why would Canon put 24P on a camera they are going to target the consumer?

If the footage looks like or better than the HV10 there is no reason this camera couldn't be used in some pro work.

Why is it that no one is complaining that this camcorder doesn’t have a focusing ring around the lens? Unless you’re transferring your footage to film, that feature is infinite times more important than 24p for small independent productions. Even the Optura have a focusing ring around the lens. Both Sony and Canon should stop replacing it with a tiny focusing dial that is very awkward to use.

I have never talked good about a JVC camcorder before but the only camcorder with excellent manual controls this year is the GZ-HD7. Besides, a replacement for the GL2 is way overdue.

While we are at it why don't we complain about it not having a 2/3" chip.

This is a consumer camera! It is made for little Johny's birthday party and not film makers. If you are a film maker who wants to use a consumer camera then great. I for one am mostly looking at this for vacations and not pro work. I will try it out as a B roll camera and studio bluescreen work but I would never ever depend on it as my main camera. 99% of the consumer market will never ever have a desire to use a foucs ring. They will slam it into auto focus and never turn it off ever again. Many of these features are a huge huge huge bonus on an already super great camera. About the only thing anybody ever complained about on the HV10 was the lack of mic input. Which again is one of those things a consumer would hardly ever use. We now have it with so many other bonus features.

If you want a focus ring use a 35mm DOF adapter on the front.

This just goes to show that no matter how good a new camera is there will always be somebody within a few days to complain about something.

Ah men Thomas! If you can afford a Gates housing, you wouldn't be buying this camera.

Mike

While we are at it why don't we complain about it not having a 2/3" chip.

This is a consumer camera! It is made for little Johny's birthday party and not film makers. If you are a film maker who wants to use a consumer camera then great. I for one am mostly looking at this for vacations and not pro work. I will try it out as a B roll camera and studio bluescreen work but I would never ever depend on it as my main camera. 99% of the consumer market will never ever have a desire to use a foucs ring. They will slam it into auto focus and never turn it off ever again. Many of these features are a huge huge huge bonus on an already super great camera. About the only thing anybody ever complained about on the HV10 was the lack of mic input. Which again is one of those things a consumer would hardly ever use. We now have it with so many other bonus features.

If you want a focus ring use a 35mm DOF adapter on the front.

This just goes to show that no matter how good a new camera is there will always be somebody within a few days to complain about something.

I think we are looking at new markets, like the web, iTunes, podcast, cell phones. My brother is starting a company that will be using web portals etc.
We have MySpace, YouTube, on and on.

The idea of a filmaker only having a $5,000 or a $100,000 set up might be a thing of the past. I think saying a camera like the HV20 will only be for kids birthday parties is not true. I've seen people post that they took their kids birthday with a DVX100.

You probably won't see these on big movie sets, TV stations, etc, but they will be used. But when you see the footage that is coming out of these little camcorders there is no reason you won't be seeing it used for more than vacations and birthday parties.

I think we are looking at new markets, like the web, iTunes, podcast, cell phones. My brother is starting a company that will be using web portals etc.
We have MySpace, YouTube, on and on.

The idea of a filmaker only having a $5,000 or a $100,000 set up might be a thing of the past. I think saying a camera like the HV20 will only be for kids birthday parties is not true. I've seen people post that they took their kids birthday with a DVX100.

You probably won't see these on big movie sets, TV stations, etc, but they will be used. But when you see the footage that is coming out of these little camcorders there is no reason you won't be seeing it used for more than vacations and birthday parties.

I didn't say everybody would only use it for family video but a much larger percentage of them will. Of course there will be people that don't fit the exact markets but these people are a minority. If the aim is web video then why even go with HD? Those people could get a SD camera with a focus ring and the results would still look great. I'm not saying I wouldn't have liked a focus ring but I am not about to complain about it because I know it is a consumer camera and therefore will have limitations. Many young people wanting to experiment with creating movies would be happy with any camera and will not nit pick over features the way we do. Those same people using a HV20 will still create great video without the focus ring if they put the effort into it.

Besides it isn't as if the HV20 doesn't have manual focus. It just doesn't have a ring to do it. Those who want to create interesting video will not have a problem with this since most of them wouldn't have come from being used to using bigger cameras with focus rings. If they want to manual focus they will do so.

How many of your normal video camera consumers, shopping at Wal-mart Best Buy or someplace like that even know what 24p is? Probably not many. So why would Canon put 24P on a camera they are going to target the consumer?

That’s exactly what I’m saying.


I know it’s a consumer camcorder but it doesn’t make sense to put a 24p feature but not a focusing ring when that’s much more important or even a microphone input that attaches directly to a body.

You can work around not having the focusing ring (focusing dial), but you can't work around not having 24p if you want it.

Why isnt progressive scan important? Almost every display we watch video on nowadays is progressive. Deinterlacing is a PITA. Why do it if you dont have to.

The average consumer at Walmart is going to buy a DVD based camcorder because you dont have mess with those silly tapes. Someone that's intered in HD and willing to spend $1000 on a camcorder and uses an NLE certainly understands what 24P is - and likes it ;-)

I still would have loved to see 30p over 24p.

If you bump your shutter to 1/30th, you will have a fake 30p with a resolution hit of course. But if it is a progressive chip you actually should retain the full rez, so there shouldn't be worries about no 30p.

Ah men Thomas! If you can afford a Gates housing, you wouldn't be buying this camera.

Mike
Not so sure on that one Mike - The Gates HC1/A1U housing is considered by many serious u/w shooters to be one of the best housings Gates ever produced. For many, it is considered functional artwork. And the HC-1 came in close to the price of the HV20...

Now the cameras are on a 9 month production cycle - I would hate to be in the u/w housing business these days...

Why isnt progressive scan important? Almost every display we watch video on nowadays is progressive. Deinterlacing is a PITA. Why do it if you dont have to.

Far from true, most HD displays in homes right now are 720p and or 1080i. 1080p is newer and far less prevelant. On top of that, most TV's in use are not even HD!

The average consumer at Walmart is going to buy a DVD based camcorder because you dont have mess with those silly tapes. Someone that's intered in HD and willing to spend $1000 on a camcorder and uses an NLE certainly understands what 24P is - and likes it ;-)

I think this is wrong too. Most consumers at Walmart or anywhere else, don't know what 24p is. And, furthermore, 24p is not great for you little consumer home movies because of the problems with motion artifacts etc..

JMHO-----Mike

Not so sure on that one Mike - The Gates HC1/A1U housing is considered by many serious u/w shooters to be one of the best housings Gates ever produced. For many, it is considered functional artwork.

You are stating my case for me. I never ever said the Gates housings were not good, just the opposite.

Mike

This debate on the target market of the HV20 is quite interesting! IMHO this camera is set to serve a triple purpose:

1) It is targeted to the serious hoppyist who knows a couple of things more than the average consumer and cares about good plans and sound.
2) It is targeted as a deck and/or a 2nd/ behind the scenes camera on the cheap.
3) It is also targeted to the no-budget indie who has a lot of creativity but no money to materialise it into a "film!" He now has his tool at his price range to make his dream come true!

I think that the reason people do not see this 3rd market is because this is the first time a company actually caters COMPLETELY for this market! (previous attempts from other companies included GS400 and HC1). Until now, everybody *assumed* that if someone wishes to "make a film", well, he can certainly afford to buy a DVX/XL2/A1/V1 ! Or at least rent one! No?

Well... no!

There is plenty of people out there with NO BUDGET (no means no) and A BIG DREAM! Well, this is their time! Canon just gave them the tool. They even included this "cinema look" preset! Good luck to everybody! No more excuses...

Thanasis

P.S. Also, another parameter to the equation: Canon has started the last 6 months to introduce it's own DSLR CMOS sensors in it's camcorders. This is a big move! From what I understand (I am not a technical guy), it is significantly different to built a sensor for a camera than a camcorder. If I were Canon, I would definitely want this move to succeed (so that I stop buying my sensors from others) but also be very careful to built experience in this, before I throw my new technology into "pro" equipment. A failure in pro equipment will hurt Canon's name much more than a failure in a consumer camera! Remember that Canon has only one division which builts camcorders. No separation between "consumer" and "pro" divisions. IMHO, HV10 and HV20 are Canon's "test tubes". HV10 test their first camcorder CMOS sensor and its ability to capture interlaced. HV20 will test their HD progressive capturing technology from this sensor to the tape. No 24 full frames on tape, like 24f. Instead, 24 full frames in a 50/60i stream. A much better format for studios with decks ready to read this stream. It is a conservative, step-by-step approach, but it definitely makes sense! If HV20 comes through succesfully, I would expect a 3 CMOS implementation in an interlaced/progressive "pro" camera from Canon pretty soon!

P.S.2 This is what Sony did not do (testing on a consumer product their CMOS progressive capturing technology before going pro) with the results of V1E's progressive performance...

while many consumers may not know what 24p is they do know when using it that it kind of looks like film. SONY did the same thing on the HC1. They added the cinema effect mode that created a fake 24p look. Canon decided to do it the correct way and make it a real 24p. perhaps it was a nod to us artists knowning well that some very creative people were going to be using it. Perhaps they also did it because many people with XH1 cameras were buying these for B roll cameras/decks and figured it would be nice for those shooting 24F to have footage that could also B roll from the HV20. I mean this makes sense from that point of view. With the HV10 you only choice for B roll was to shoot 60i which didn't work very well for those shooting 24F. Now many 24F users will have an option for a locked down camera or camera used in a funky position that could be used to match footage from the higher end gear. I could actually see some high budget productions using these cameras for crashing since they are so cheap (assuming of course the tape wouldn't get too damaged).

Guys the focus ring is not that big of a deal to a large group of people that will be using this camera. Even the pros using the higher end Canon cameras may never manual focus the camera because it either acts as B roll or the IR auto focus works so well they wouldn't need to focus. You can still manual focus with the camera if you want to. I'm not sure how well it will work but it isn't as if you can't do it. Before knocking it you should try it or wait a few months so somebody can tell us how well the manual focus works.

Regardless of how some or many of us want to use this camera that does not change the fact that it is a scaled down consumer camera. While it could become the next DVX100 for indies that does not change the fact that it is also aimed at the consumer market. I'm not sure why there is so much concern over the focus ring. To me it sounds like the only people complaining about this are those who have used focus rings in the past and want a $1000.00 camera to match what they have used in the past. Stop living in a fantasy world and just enjoy what you can do with the camera.

While 30p would have been nice, I think it is better to have 24p then 30p. 30p isn't that big of a format while 24p is the highest quality production standard. The very first HDV camera only did 30p and a lot of people complained because they wanted 24p. 30p just isn't as usefull as 24p. If Canon had to make a choice I'm glad they did it this way. Now if we could have had both that would have been great but again I'm not about to complain about a $1000.00 camera that is already way way way too much camera for what we will be paying for.

[/QUOTE]
Canon decided to do it the correct way and make it a real 24p.

I have been reading a lot on the 24p now that the Hv-20 is coming out with it, from a prosumer point of view I can see that you will need to plan your shots very carefully, avoid rapid pans and in general rapid motion undeliberate filming, there is also the benefit of wider color gamut and wider grayscale with less chance to burn the highlights.
Aside from those advantages/disadvantages can you think of other benefits of the 24 frame rate.
Thanks,
Luis

Well well well. I can't believe it. I leave the forum for a number of days and news like this brakes! I can't beleive it. i get pretty much what i wanted the HV10 to be. Well, minus 1080p60 to a solid state format and 20x lens with manual focus and zoom. :P

lol the only thing i need to wait for is for someone to get one and find out if HDMI out is before signal processing and dumbing down to HDV. Something tells me it wont be. :( Oh and the aussie priceing. Something tells me we'll get raped in that department like always.

But well done Canon. At least they have a little bit of RED seeping through for us conned sumers. :)

i can just see it now, consumers complaining to Canon Consumer division saying that HV20 sux and is "broken" because it is soooooooooooooooo blurry when on cinematic look.

lol!!!

From back upthread:
>Here's a side question: which do you think gets better low-light: the GL2 or this new HV-20

One hint is at Camcorderinfo.com with the 15 lux captures from a GL-2 and a HV-10. Assuming that nothing has changed in their test methodology for the past few years, the HV-10 looks better to my eyes.

-Tom-

Sorry, attachments removed -- please don't upload the property of another site to our server, it is a copyright violation. Just post a link to the original location please.

Camcorderinfo has 15 lux test charts.

GL-2 is somewhere in here.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/bhshootoff_1300_group.htm

HV10 is here (BTW they reference H1 comparisons, but all the charts read HV10?)
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV10-Camcorder-Review/Performance.htm

Take most tests done at camcorderinfo with a grain of salt. Most reviews have significant errors, and the testing has changed over the years. The Numerical testing system is very inconsistent, and they often praise a product for a feature and condemn it for that very feature.

Holly,

All I am referencing is the 15 lux test charts. Same test chart, hopefully same 15 lux lighting, two cameras, one small data point that seems to suggest that the HV10 does at least as well if not better than the GL-2 in available darkness.

Maybe it's about time we do our own charts... DV Info Net style. How does that sound.

DSC Labs is already a sponsor here. All of the elements are in place as far as I can tell.

Maybe it's about time we do our own charts... DV Info Net style. How does that sound.

DSC Labs is already a sponsor here. All of the elements are in place as far as I can tell.

It sounds like a great idea!

A number of the digital camera sites have a set chart and still life they use for every camera. That way you get an apples to apples comparison between two cameras.

The Imaging Resource Comparometer is a nice implementation.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

-Tom-

Chris,

Thats a good idea. I'd trust this site. :) I'd like to suggest a time line feature that could possibly be updated with a few trusted ppl. Similar to dpreview's timeline. Showing camera model number and date released. Its an awesome thing to track your next purchase with and to just see when the camera your about to purchase was really released and actually seeing its 10months old already can be a help. :)

Maybe it's about time we do our own charts... DV Info Net style. How does that sound.

DSC Labs is already a sponsor here. All of the elements are in place as far as I can tell.

Having a 2nd reliable source would be a great idea Chris!

Ultimately I don't think the 24p features will be useful to the typical HD consumer. Most people will switch to 24p and see that it looks very jerky. Purists will complain about "jutter" and the like.

Because it's a 1/2.7" chip, the DOF will not be very shallow - which will make pans and steadicam work look very stroboscopic. Only those people who really understand what it takes to make deep DOF 24p video look good will benefit from the feature. For those people, this camera will be a budget conscious boon.

I would most certainly purchase this camera over the FX1 if it was available at the time. Of course, it wasn't, so the FX1 is what I've got.

Camcorders like this bode very well for the consumer of the future... who knows what the next generation will hold!

-Steve

Maybe it would reintroduce in a way the shakey (is that a word?) feel of those old 8mm films :)

btw nice picture overview behind that Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000MUV6BA/ref=dp_images_all/103-0139260-8502261?ie=UTF8&s=electronics.

I'm having a hard time guessing whether my Canon WD-43 0.7 converter will not obstruct the instant focus sensor.
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000MUV6BA.01.PT07._SS400_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Yes -- either converter (wide or tele) will obstruct the I.AF sensor.

Anyone have an opinion on this? As I do not own the Panny, and nobody has the Canon, I know this is next to impossible to probably comment on. But I'm hoping that any folks with experience with an HV10 and the Panny might be bale to make an educated guess.

Thanks,

Maybe it's about time we do our own charts... DV Info Net style. How does that sound.

DSC Labs is already a sponsor here. All of the elements are in place as far as I can tell.

Chris, this is a great idea! Great! Go for it! ;)

Thanasis

i'm assuming this HV20 has lens threads... widescreen? nice.

Anyone have an opinion on this? As I do not own the Panny, and nobody has the Canon, I know this is next to impossible to probably comment on. But I'm hoping that any folks with experience with an HV10 and the Panny might be bale to make an educated guess.

Thanks,

Geoff. check out the link http://red.com/technology.htm and see the difference in resolution for yourself. under controlled lighting the HV20 will kick butt! the HV20=1080p and DVX100=DV.

but resolution is not all the picture. the gamma curve on the DVX will capture a more natural roll off before clipping that equals better dynamic range.

CAn HV10/ HV20 be used for real broadcast? Will broadcast stations approve images from this cam ? Considering this is a Single CMOS ?

Thanks for ur input

CAn HV10/ HV20 be used for real broadcast? Will broadcast stations approve images from this cam ? Considering this is a Single CMOS ?

Thanks for ur input

of course.. with content, they will take anything.. and 3ccd is so yesterday, color bleeding is not an issue anymore.

CAn HV10/ HV20 be used for real broadcast? Will broadcast stations approve images from this cam ? Considering this is a Single CMOS ?

Thanks for ur input
Some TV stations have used the HC1 and the A1u for documentaries. As long as you are able to hook up a decent microphone to it, you won’t have a problem.

I’ve noticed that a lot of HD stock footage companies never allowed video from 1 chip camcorders but the HC1 became an exception.

CAn HV10/ HV20 be used for real broadcast? Will broadcast stations approve images from this cam?How would the station even know which camera it is... unless you told them?

I have heard that Engineers at TV station usually check the footage thru Waveform monitors , Vectorscope and other hardware equipment to analyse the depth and quality of footage . So usually Single CCD camera give way and they will find that out.
However CAnon HV10/20 being an exception I dont think they will find that out, as long as their testing equipments do not scream.
Hence I just wanted some comments, from users who have already broadcasted their work.
Thanks

I have heard that Engineers at TV station usually check the footage thru Waveform monitors , Vectorscope and other hardware equipment to analyse the depth and quality of footage . So usually Single CCD camera give way and they will find that out.
However CAnon HV10/20 being an exception I dont think they will find that out, as long as their testing equipments do not scream.
Hence I just wanted some comments, from users who have already broadcasted their work.
Thanks


it would be like,"what a great show. People are going to love this. But you better run it through the Vectorscope first Bill."