Hello all,

This is my first post here so please go easy on me!

I will soon be the proud owner of a Canon XH A1 and one thing that I have found no clear answer for is this...

If I shoot in HDV, edit in HDV, how do I then downsample to SD successfully?


I use Premiere Pro 2 and ProCoder 2, and would be editing .m2t at 50i. I have downloaded some .m2t from these forums and edited them successfully on my machine.
However, when I try to output SD, the image is terrible!
This is something I really want/need to do, so can anyone shed some light on the subject for me?

I realize that HDV and DV use different colour space, and I think I’m right in assuming that HDV is upper field fist and DV lower field first, so these could cause some problems.
But surely, there’s some method to downsample with minimal fuss?

Thanks in advance,

Stefan.

You might find that if you import your HDV footage into a SD project, it exports to DVD or DV AVI a lot cleaner.

First of all, be sure you are not being influenced by the quality and clarity of the initial HDV footage. It is a bit of a shock after editing in HDV, to look at the project in DV output. You need to compare it to other DV projects to compare the finished DV project.

Second. I have found that if I am sure I only want DV project, I will downcovert at capture. It seems to work out better that way.

Third, if you are editing in HDV, and will render a final HDV master, from which to render the DV file, make sure you have quality slider all the way up to 5. Premiere seem to default to 2.5 or something like that.

I did just do a 1 hour project, editing all in HDV, then down converting to DV in a render, then from there, constructing a DVD in Sony's DVD Architect. It came out just fine. It obviously no high definition, and can't be.

Thanks Steve, but I want to edit in HDV so that I’m able to output both HD and SD.
Unless you meant output the final edit in HD, then import it into a SD project and output again?

It’s very true that when you view HD, suddenly SD DV looks like it was filmed through cling film.
Whilst I’m aware of this, I did notice strange distortional effects from the conversion. It almost looked like a median filter had been passed over it.

I tried again…
Here’s a step by step of how I exported:

File>Export>Adobe Media Encoder
Format: MPEG2-DVD
NTSC, 720x480, 29.97, Lower Field First
CBR 7mbps
Codec: MainConcept MPEG Video
M Frames: 3
N Frames: 15
Quality: 5

This time I noticed the same effect when viewed on the computer. But, just to make sure I burned it to a DVD to view on a 28” CRT, and guess what… not bad!

I wouldn’t say it quite hits the mark of footage originally shot in DV but it’s acceptable by a long shot.
As you say Chris, it’s never going to be HD, but it’s a comfort to know that the down conversion is viewable.

One limiting factor though: I can only export straight off the timeline in MPEG2 through ‘Adobe Media Encoder’ which utilizes the MainConcept codec.
Now, I have Canopus ProCoder 2.04.02 installed on my system and would like to use that as it renders exceptional MPEG2 video, and at lower bit rates.

However if I go to:
File>Export>ProCoder 2 Exporter

I get this message:

Adobe Premiere Pro has encountered an error.
[\dev\stingray\Libraries\Hsl\Src\RenderProgressPane.cpp-300]

(perhaps this is the subject for another thread?)

Any ideas? Is ProCoder 2 not compatible with Premiere Pro 2?

P.S. Any more tips regarding HD>SD would be much appreciated.

I don't have Procoder, so I can't answer that.

I edit in HDV, and then I import the project into a SD project and scale it down.

Premiere Pro seems to have a problem scaling down while encoding.

Stefan:

I actually take an in between step that you don't. I will render a finished HDV film, then from HDV to DV SD first. I seem to get a better render thereafter to mpg. Might be that encoding from HDV direct to .mpg is not that great. I actually did that once, when I first had HDV, and wasn't satisfied with that direct encoding.

I will actually encode and burn my mpg in the DVD burning program of my choice, whether it be DVD Architect, or Encore, or Pinnacle's DVD maker inside Studio 10.

I can't talk to any of these solutions as I am totally Mac based. However I have found that my HDV H.264 encodes from QT/FCP are great for deployment via web or Standard definition DVD. Might be something to look into.

Thanks for the advice,
I will try each method and compare the results.

I'll post what I find here, in case it's of interest.

Stefan, there are tons of threads about this on the DV Info forums, just do a little search. One of the highest rated methods from what others say (I am still in the experimenting phase, no real projects at this time) is to export HDV, resize in VirtualDub, then encode with TMPGENC - check out http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=70792.

Thanks for the thread link, just what I was looking for! Don't know how I missed that one.

Stefan,

I noticed your settings in the Adobe Media Encoder were set for NTSC. As you're listed as living in U.K. did you purposely want an NTSC version instead of PAL?

the best method to really take advantage of HDV is to get a capture card like kona/xena/blackmagic and let it do a 10 bit hardware downconversion. It is absolutely stunning!

What method is used to resize makes a big difference. Resizing in Virtual Dub, using either a Bicubic filter or Lanczos filter can work well.

Done several tests. Found Mpeg streamclip (windows) freeware to give
satisfying results. Import file and export as avi / use dvcpro apple codec /
nice interlaced scaling , add on better downscaling , deinterlace , field order
and all the frame size presets / to suit your output /

Nifty Software @ good output quality.

Peace

Stefan,

I noticed your settings in the Adobe Media Encoder were set for NTSC. As you're listed as living in U.K. did you purposely want an NTSC version instead of PAL?

Your right Mark, I am in PAL land but the clips i was playing with were NTSC (downloaded from this forum) so I kept them in that format to experiment.

Stefan, I've had the same problems with editing in HDV in PP2 then trying to down convert, the main concept encoder does a terrible job at down converting, and I've posted my problem on the premiere thread, this is what i got back-"render out to 1440x1080 avi, then downconvert using the Lanzos resize filter in Virtualdub, which is excellent quality and will cost you precisely $0."

I haven't had time to try this, but hopefully you will.

You could capture, import, edit, and put it back onto tape all in HD

Then import the HD footage again as SD... just render the already edited footage... walla... :)

It's fun watching edited HD footage back on an HDTV w/ component cables :)