I have just been called by SilverSupport and the firmware upgrade performed at Xmas was the final fix.

Sony recognise that 25P is unacceptably poor and are offering full refunds. It is obviously a fundamental design problem that cannot be resolved in firmware as they had previously said it would.

The V1E will no longer be sold as a progressive camera in 1080i50 regions but as a 50i only HDV camera.

I have spoken to my dealer and they have just been told and have just sent emails to their affected customers. They recommend the XH-A1 which is what I'll exchange my V1E for.

TT

P.S. The V1Us do not have a problem.

Wow. That's a remarkable stance. Does 'full refund' mean, return your camera for full money back?

Wow. That's a remarkable stance. Does 'full refund' mean, return your camera for full money back?

No not really, they are stuffed under the misrepresentation of goods under the sale of goods act here in the UK. They have to offer full refund.

Yep, FULL refund. It is no longer a 25P camera only interlaced!! They are positioning it as a low cost Z1E!!! Now that's a remarkable stance if there ever was one!!

I am hacked off though! This must rank along side exploding batteries recall and Playstation delays in league of cock-ups...

TT

I was initially excited then a bit disappointed with the V1E and FX7 when they were announced, 1/4in chip size, smaller form, lcd back down usual position...the 25p was what seemed to be the saving grace...shame
Lets hope they stop messing about and give us out and out proper successors to the FX1E and Z1E

Whoops. Well I guess that one is off my shopping list, as it's progressive scan or nothing for me...

Poor show!

whow thanks for that info i was just about to buy this camera this week as
my dealer said they were getting "FIXED new batch in that was definetely
ok with the 25p fixed" dont know if they have been told about this what a
disaster for sony shame as i really wanted this camera but if only 50i then
i will think again thanks for important info tony

just checked sony broadcast website in uk about v1 and anything about
25p progressive has been deleted to the last time i checked which they
showed quite a lot concerning 25p maybe sony will drop the price to be
compatible with the canons but sadly no progressive maybe go for a cheap
FX1 or the canon time will tell ?

Tony, I don't know what to say, but you and many other who have been so helpful and professional in handling VIE "i" and "p" stuffs, you are all heros to me bcs you have just saved my hard earning money as I was really really going to order V1 at Malaysia.

It's great to know you all !! Thank you !!

* * * * *

Now the question is, what makes V1E diffrent from FX7 ? perviously my predict is V1E is an overpriced FX7 with XLR + slightly more menu option + 90% good progressive. Now the progressive is dropped out from the camera, just wondering how lower the price would be... V1E in this case still very attractive to people who don't do "p"... if the price could be just 200GBP more then FX7 (for extra menu option & XLR..).. V1E in this case will still make a good sales over europe.

But if V1E still something trying to compete XH-A1 in term of price.. then personally I would recommend A1 over V1E just for it wider len, larger CCD.

While on the other hand, why V1E can't perform like V1U remain the myth to everyone especially please don't forget, this is a native progressive camera.

Do you mean http://www.sonybiz.net/?

All the information about progressive nature of the camera have indeed been removed, except from the flash presentation, which still is showing it off.

Interestingly, I have just received an e-mail from PrimeSupport stating that the first fix to 25p is the final one, the softness having being removed and the "line flicker" or "marching ants" can be eliminated by reducing the Sharpness setting.

Interestingly, I have just received an e-mail from PrimeSupport stating that the first fix to 25p is the final one, the softness having being removed and the "line flicker" or "marching ants" can be eliminated by reducing the Sharpness setting.

I was told the same on the phone but that does not solve all the other issues that stop the P footage being up to acceptable quality. The oil paint effect and block noise issues remain. :( The line flicker does not go away and the image turns to mush before the edge over enhancement disappears.

That's why they are giving refunds because it simply is not good enough.

It's a great shame.

TT

That's why they are giving refunds because it simply is not good enough.

It's a great shame.

TT

Sony has been able to outsell every other DV and HDV camcorder for a decade -- even without 24p/25p -- because the vast majority of commercial work is done in 50i/60i and 50p/60p. Sony will lose very few Region 50 sales.

The internet is not representative of the vast number of camcorder buyers around the world. For example, if you regularly read the Japanese magazines -- Sony's home market -- you simply see nothing about 24p.

But, I am very suprprised Sony can't get 50% of 50i working the same way it can get 50% of 60i. Very, very strange. Although, JVC never offered a 720p25 version of its HD1/HD10 which we all wondered about.

And, I am sorry you guys have had to waste so much time. Good luck with whatever you buy!

Steve

Hi,

I have not received any mail from Sony today - however I have spoken with them over the phone on Friday when I heard nothing about this news above. Since they told it takes more time to find the fix, I requested my cam back from them with no fix, until they find the way - the cam just arrived today by UPS.

My dealer is sunk in deep silence ever since I wrote an email asking a replace Canon A1 unit (I have kind of expected this outcome with the 25p fix...).

Now I have no idea what to do, I have purchased quite an amount of other accessories that are Sony specific - must return all those, what a hassle!

I would rather go for a V1U - is there any chance to get that as a replacement unit?
Anyone to tell me whats the big deal about using 24p instead of 25p? Plus it has 30p also. If there is a requirement of 25p from the client side, any NLE can make 25p of 24p or 30p?

Sony has been able to outsell every other DV and HDV camcorder for a decade -- even without 24p/25p -- because the vast majority of commercial work is done in 50i/60i and 50p/60p.

In my opinion "was" done in 50i/60i. Most commercial stuff is destined for the web these days. Progressive makes it just a little bit easier.

I'm stunned. I expected Sony to struggle with this a bit and get some replacement cams out as a worst case fix. What in the world makes a 50i/25P camera hose the progressive image when the 60i/30P/24P camera with the exact same sensors and guts works?

They've just handed the indie film maker audience to Canon and Panasonic in PAL countries. Sure its a smaller market, but still...

I bet within a year they'll release an incremental update to the V1 line with proper 25P.

This time last year YouTube had about 2,500 visitors a month. This year they get over 20 million visitors a month.

TV broadcasters are losing their audience share to the internet. Many large corporations are already looking at how they can spend their advertising dollar on internet video - looking at ways of "engaging" viewers.

Internet bandwidth becomes less of an issue for many as ADSL2 and ADSL Max are rolled out, potentially offering plenty of bandwidth for H.264 or WMV HD. And not only that but some crossover of internet and TV content is expected.

Large companies will want to differentiate themselves from their competition, and one way to do that is by working with better production values (ie. not a webcam).

A friend of mine worked on a vodcast recently for a major international corporation. They were using XDCAM HD. A little more than $5000. They did a really bad job on the chromakey, but that's besides the point.

Like you said yourself - sometimes there are new ways of doing things. The landscape is changing. And needing progressive scan is part of that landscape.

Well, this one year would be a little too long to wait....In the meantime people (like me) would replace the cam and buy another one - but then that cam will remain for a couple of years - so I think Sony will miss the train.

And who knows what is cooking in the kitchen of the competitors? Maybe a true progressive Canon? A 1080p HVX?

They should be a little creative now, e.g. think of the option of replacing V1Es with V1Us for customers who like that. I for one would get a V1U right away if there was such an option. One 24p instead of 25p? Big deal.
And 30p as a plus...
btw Canon offers 50 and 60 in the same cam as an upgrade...

What in the world makes a 50i/25P camera hose the progressive image....

I've never understood how a supposedly native progressive sensor makes its way into an interlaced only cam (the FX7) with such stellar results? Yes it's been confirmed the acquisition is progressive but then why the problems with progressive mode? I confess to being cynical but I would really like to run a V1 progressive versus interlaced test of grab(s) of an ISO 12233 resolution chart or slant edge test through the Imatest MTF50 software to prove conclusively whether or not the resolution takes a small hit in the "P" mode. The oil paint artifact is likely a consequence of mpeg filtering, and it doesn't seem logical to me why it should be worse in "P" mode unless the premise that the capture is taking place progressively is wrong. If the capture was interlaced or in-cam processed there would be a small but expected drop in vertical resolution. The resolution drop in the Canon XH-A1/G1's "F" mode would be virtually unnoticeable eyeballing a chart but the Imatest software can be counted upon to pinpoint a 10-12% drop.

Tom,

Even the 24P and 30P of the US model differ to 60i. There is a small difference but no one have given a believable reason why I should be better than P from a natively progressive chip.

It is somewhat ironic that Canon can produce a high quality Progressive image from an interlaced camera and Sony can't produce 25P from a progressive chip. DOH!!! You couldn't make it up if you tried!

Thankfully this has happened when there are other cameras of equivalent quality to purchase instead. Canon must be delighted.

TT

I wonder how Sony Australia will handle the V1P situation here?! Consumer laws here are not as consumer-protective as their UK counterparts.

I'm very disappointed in this turn of events especially as I just took delivery of my V1P yesterday and have only got as far as familiarising myself with the camera and the manual and shooting a few minutes of test footage (the 1080i footage is nothing short of stunning on my 55" plasma via HDMI connection).

And needing progressive scan is part of that landscape.

Absolutely agree! But not low remporal rate P with horrible motion judder. That's why 50p and 60p are the future from all camcorders. JVC offers it today. And so does Panasonic. There are real alternatives.

Tom,

Even the 24P and 30P of the US model differ to 60i. There is a small difference but no one have (sic) given a believable reason why I should be better than P from a natively progressive chip.


Tony I've explained it several times. You seem unable, or unwilling, to understand HOW the V1 works.

There is nothing strange going on except in the PAL model -- which no longer exists. So the issue is closed.

-------------------

The oil paint artifact is likely a consequence of mpeg filtering, and it doesn't seem logical to me why it should be worse in "P" mode unless the premise that the capture is taking place progressively is wrong.

This repeated "maybe its not really progressive" is nonsense. It is. Moreover, if it was MPEG-2 filtering then it would exist in the USA model -- and it doesn't.

Whatever the reason for the PAL model's problem is now irrelevant since that model is now only 50i. So the issue is closed.

Anything more is pure speculation.

Whatever the reason for the PAL model's problem is now irrelevant since that model is now only 50i. So the issue is closed.

Anything more is pure speculation.

One important matter however, remains beyond speculation - and it is pure mathematics.
Europe customers should pay 40% more for 50% less shooting options today. This will give hard times for Sony to explain away.

Tony I've explained it several times. You seem unable, or unwilling, to understand HOW the V1 works.



With all due respect I simply don't believe your explanation is correct.

Even if your explanation regarding how I is created from twice as much information were correct in a static scene there would be no difference between what is capture in P or I. Same information hitting the encoder in both modes. Why would there be a sharpness difference?

This is precisely why I don't believe your explanation. Anyway you are right, there is no point chewing the cud over this any more since we've become second class customers to Sony.

Will you be able to find out why the EU models couldn't produce 25P from your contacts? I think some of us would like to know out of curiosity.

TT

I'd be keen for an understandable explanation as well. This whole thing is very weird, and not like Sony at all. We in PAL land, most of the world, have been let down badly. I expect they will announce a PAL 25p V1 in 6 months time when the hardware issues have been properly resolved.

Does anyone remember when the Z1 came out, Sony commited itself to a radical and much appreciated 'One world, One Camera' policy of having both NTSC and PAL in all it's pro camera's. It delivered with the XDCAM HD and the Z1. But when the V1 came out, no such thing. So it seems they recognised a problem from the begining. I wonder if it has to do specifically with the CMOS chip's processing?

Absolutely agree! But not low remporal rate P with horrible motion judder. That's why 50p and 60p are the future from all camcorders. JVC offers it today. And so does Panasonic. There are real alternatives.

I think you're right.

Roll on 1080p150... then the 50Hz and 60Hz countries can share a common frame rate...

:-D

With all due respect I simply don't believe your explanation is correct.

Even if your explanation regarding how I is created from twice as much information were correct in a static scene there would be no difference between what is capture in P or I. Same information hitting the encoder in both modes. Why would there be a sharpness difference?



Because the aliasing filters may be set for I and for P scanning. I'm assuming in I mode the filter is set higher than for P. Hence the very tiny difference in detail.

The filters act on the image -- moving or not.

Remember, a very slight -- maybe 1 or 2 clicks of Sharpness -- is the ONLY difference between P and I for the V1U.

Your "oil paint" and "ants" issues -- are a current V1E problem. I've got no idea what's going on and have never claimed to understand it.

I've just received an email from the UK that disputes "the will NEVER be fixed" claim. My information is that Sony has not given-up fixing the V1E.

If, Sony has removed 25p from the specs, it may be purely for legal reasons until it is fixed -- or not fixed.

I remember too well the JVC SSE issue from the Euro areas that caused mass confusion. The problem took a month to fix and it was only a setup issue. This may be a tougher one and take more time. Or, it may be as simple as a bad firmware that needs fixing.

My feeling is this thread should fully be replaced by DSE or Chris WITH a comment that dvinfo is awaiting clarification from Sony itself. Right now it's pure speculation by one poster who has been told something by one person at Sony.

Until Sony makes an announcement, by definition everything posted is speculation.

Steve

Sony Prime Support phoned me yesterday and said the fix that we have is the final fix. No more fixes. He was quite clear.

My dealer rang shortly afterward and confirmed that too. Believe me, I made sure that this was the final position regarding the state of 25P.

The V1E is being repositioned as a cheap Z1E. It will not be sold as a 1080P camera anymore just 50i.

TT

Because the aliasing filters may be set for I and for P scanning. I'm assuming in I mode the filter is set higher than for P. Hence the very tiny difference in detail.

Steve, with all due respect I don't think such "tiny" difference could make Sony decided to drop what they originally marketed V1E over FX7 into indie market (while definitely if I've bought V1 and make complaint to my Malaysia Sony, they might say the similar thing that I just need to lower some threshole, then I have to painfully convince myself to accept the fact that I am paying less then USD5000 for a big toy, not a USD 50,000 pro gear so don't expect anymore, it's a mercy from Sony to make me a big toy).

And based on your idea above, since "I" *may* have aliasing filter set higher then "P" then you have just lead to a result that "I" shouldn't have more resolution then P. "aliasing" should make the picture look much *smooth* but less sharpness, but now we have "I" look more sharpness and "P" look like painting (okay, it is the past now since there is not "P" anymore).

And I don't think any of us is speculating here, it is simply make no logical sense where PAL user is buying a CMOS progressive camera but it doesn't have progressive capability. Imagine it is V1U having the same problem, I believe you will ask the same question too.

Steve, with all due respect I don't think such "tiny" difference could make Sony decided to drop what they originally marketed V1E over FX7 into indie market (while definitely if I've bought V1 and make complaint to my Malaysia

You REALLY need to read posts more closely. I'm only commenting on the V1U.

I've got no idea what's going on with the V1E. And, frankly, none of the V1E posters have anything valid to say about our perfectly functioning V1U.

Moreover your comment that "aliasing" should make the picture look much *smooth* but less sharpness," is 100% incorrect.

Sony is well known for keeping the cut-off frequency high which allows a bit of aliasing which makes diagonals LESS smooth, but also allows more detail. You've got your understanding of aliasing backwards.

If this thread needed to be completely removed for whatever reason, I'm sure that would have already happened. Chris runs a pretty tight ship here and if Tony was simply telling untruths about Sony Prime Support, he'd be smacked down in short order.



All I have ever tried to do when reporting the initial 25P problems and now is post exactly what I have been told by Sony Prime Support.

I have no axe to grind with anyone and certainly not Sony and I have used Sony cameras professionally for a long time and anticipate doing so in the future.

I have absolutely no reason to lie about the 25P problems and I posted them here in good faith that the information might help someone. I do the same with this update from prime support. Do you really think Prime Support are wrong or they are lying to me?

Heck, I hope it helps ALL other PAL region customers in the future if it gets Sony to take their quality control a little more seriously!

I thought these forums were for this type of information, to directly benefit its membership. I fully accept people's right not to believe everything posted here it is their right. Please contact your dealers or Sony for confirmation.

TT

You REALLY need to read posts more closely. I'm only commenting on the V1U.

It would be helpful if you mention it specifically in each post, especially in the post initialed by Tony for V1E issues only.


I've got no idea what's going on with the V1E. And, frankly, none of the V1E posters have anything valid to say about our perfectly functioning V1U.

I thought our members here (at least for the V1E threads) are quite clear about we talk only V1E or any V1 unit for PAL land. Somehow we would wish V1E just as good as V1U which is "perfectly functioning" as you said.


Moreover your comment that "aliasing" should make the picture look much *smooth* but less sharpness," is 100% incorrect.

Sony is well known for keeping the cut-off frequency high which allows a bit of aliasing which makes diagonals LESS smooth, but also allows more detail. You've got your understanding of aliasing backwards.

Sorry about this, I slept less then 3 hours last night, I treat "aliasing" to "anti-aliasing", it is my mistake and I agree with you that aliasing makes diagonals less smooth with more detail out.

But this is still questionable:
"I" may be higher aliasing, so less smooth & more detail
"P" is then more smooth & less detail

While based on the picture provided by Tony
"P" is NOT smooth as a lot of area have some weired lining (more like de-interlacing effect)
"P" is less detail but unlikely caused by low aliasing but some REAL oil paint filter which is impossible to be used to make better "I" picture, but more like a post-CMOS filtering effect (try it in Photoshop and see who can make a painting reverse to a photo).

Unless "I" has by-passed that filter completely (It's only Sony know what are they doing) and "P" has been made to have to accept the stream from the filtering process, I see no reason a firmware fix can't be made easily.

So probably the new V1E (or let's call it V1.2e) has to re-route the stream and make no different to provide "I" and "P", both come directly from the sensor without any additional filtering process.

Sony may still busy in fixing this and hopefully tomorrow we have some good news. But at least now if you go to sonybiz.net, look for V1E, you see nothing about "P", it is just a 1080i camcorder. This support what Tony has shared with all of us.

If they are going to position this as a cheaper Z1 then I like to think the price will drop even further. Shouldn't the thing now be priced closer to the FX7?

What a pain in the neck.

I've just received an email from the UK that disputes "the will NEVER be fixed" claim. My information is that Sony has not given-up fixing the V1E.

My feeling is this thread should fully be replaced by DSE or Chris WITH a comment that dvinfo is awaiting clarification from Sony itself. Right now it's pure speculation by one poster who has been told something by one person at Sony.

Until Sony makes an announcement, by definition everything posted is speculation.

I hve received another sort of email from the UK, that disputes the "fix has not solved the problem" claim. My information is that Sony has tried to convince me that my camera is just fine.

See for yourself, it is not speculation, the original email is available as for proof:

"Hello Zsolt,

The firmware upgrade resolved the resolution issue with your camera in
25P. The resultant image can display "Line Flicker" if the sharpness is
turned up in the Picture Profile menu. Reducing this to a value around 3
will eliminate the Line Flicker. This is subjective and you will need to
determine what setting suits your needs best.

The HVR-V1e remains the only HDV camera whose chip scans in real
progressive mode in full 1080 resolution.

If you are unhappy with the camera after adjusting the sharpness, please
contact your dealer.

Best regards

PrimeSupport
B2B Service and Support"

Woah. Sharpness to 3? What do you think Steve? Last time I did it, you chellenged whether I really wanted to shoot HD if I didnt want the sharpness.
I may well put some grease on the lens to make it intransparable, then no flicker would be visible at all.
And I must be proud of having the only HDV camera whose chip scans in real progressive mode in full 1080 resolution.

They employ marketers in the Support center. Smart. But it makes understandable why the fix is not yet there. They are working on sales pitch instead.

Zsolt

Well done for posting that.

If your turn down the sharpnes to 3 in progressive mode all you get is mush. Zsolt I wonder if you could post some grabs to show people. They won't believe it when they see it!! :)

I've boxed my camera up now ready to go back so can't shoot any more footage.

TT

Zsolt I wonder if you could post some grabs to show people. They won't believe it when they see it!! :)

I would say even those grabs have been made available by many of you for long time, there are still *people* find all sort of strange theory to DISBELIEVE or simply doesn't want to accept it even they probably see it many many times.

** again, V1E only :) **

Zsolt

Well done for posting that.

If your turn down the sharpnes to 3 in progressive mode all you get is mush. Zsolt I wonder if you could post some grabs to show people. They won't believe it when they see it!! :)

I've boxed my camera up now ready to go back so can't shoot any more footage.

TT

I will try my best Tony. However my cam is still a "virgin" in terms of fixing, as last time I asked the guy at Sony to fix once the final version is around, rather than sending it back and forth by courier with the incomplete fix.
That time my understanding was that the final fix was a couple of days away - Sony Support gave me that info.
Then last Friday I had enough of waiting and asked them to send back the unit, so at least until the fix arrives I could shoot in 50i.
Then on Monday the bad news came along with my cam....

The weather here is now reminding me the worst of Britain, not easy to get out for shooting - I dont think indoors would give sufficient results for assessment.
Once weather will be less rainy, I will go out and shoot something.

Woah. Sharpness to 3? What do you think Steve? Last time I did it, you chellenged whether I really wanted to shoot HD if I didnt want the sharpness.
I may well put some grease on the lens to make it intransparable, then no flicker would be visible at all.


I've got the FX7 which produces essentially the same picture, but of course without the progressive mode. I've tried different sharpness settings and would never choose '3' since it's just too soft. I want to know that I've shot in HD, not 'psuedo HD'. ;)

I thought these forums were for this type of information, to directly benefit its membership.

Yes. It's for INFORMATION. Key word: INFORMATION.

It is NOT a place to flame fellow members and rant and rail. Ranting and railing is not informative. If you want to get emotional and vent your anger / frustration / dissatisfaction / whatever, then this is definitely the wrong place. Instead I wholeheartedly urge you to exercise your freedom of speech and start your own web site, message board, blog, whatever, and run it they want you want. Meanwhile I'll continue to exercise my freedom of speech, and run this place the way I want, which is to keep things TECHNICAL and INFORMATIVE and above all, courteous and professional, and free of F.U.D.

F.U.D. -- Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt -- is manifested in such posts as "if they can't get it together, then we'll never get our money back" and similar nonsense. If you feel compelled to champion this "sky is falling" mentality, then please go elsewhere. If you're not happy with the gear or the company that makes it, then by all means GET RID OF IT. If you want to deal with real crisis, just watch the evening news. This isn't life-threatening stuff here; it's just talk about tools, and for crying out loud, if you're not happy with the gear then get your money back and move on.

This site is for INFORMATION ONLY. I'm not interested in emotional opinions; they're not productive. If you really need to express an opinion and spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, then start your own web site.

Meanwhile since *this* site is for INFORMATION, and since there's some seriously conflicting information in this particular thread -- along with a lot of FUD that I've had to remove -- it is now closed, pending further INFORMATION directly from SONY.

If anybody has some INFORMATION to share, please contact me directly -- offline -- at chris at dvinfo dot net, and I'll post it. Thanks in advance for understanding,