Just been to see a TV company who makes programs for BBC Wales and they expressed concern over using HDV for wildlife shooting. I was thinking of using the Canon XL H1 or the JVC GY-HD101E as you can use still lenses on both. I would be using the supplied lens as well as Nikon prime 35mm lenses.


I would appreciate any comments on this, particularly from someone who has come across this problem before.

Many thanks

PS Just discovered the GY-HD250U for about the same price as the Canon Xl H1

My guess would be that the BBC is (in)famous for maintaining maximum technical quality of the material it produces. Shooting in HDV means shooting to MPEG2 which is a poor choice for master material that may need editing.

I'm interested in this point as well, I have a project coming up in the summer that is to be sold to the BBC and I had intended to shoot HDV with an HD100 and an HD251 so I had an HD master and then downconvert to SD and print to digibeta for delivery.

If anyone sees a problem with this it would be good to know.

Andy.

This thread may be of interest:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84068

If you saw the recent BBC2 show "Johnny Kingdom, a year on Exmoor" you will have seen the presenter going out and shooting wildlife footage on (what I think was) an XL-H1, and the footage being broadcast as part of the show. As the camera itself was often seen on screen - in footage shot by a second camera crew - it would be hard for anyone to say that BBC doesn't accept footage shot on this camera!

edit: take a look at his website, http://www.johnnykingdom.tv/ theres an image of him holding a white camera, that looks like an XL1, although I'm sure during the series he was seen with a black coloured camera like an XLH1

Paul - Johnny uses an old XL2 camera (SD). All his DVDs are shot with this camera (and some on the older XL1s SD camera).

The camera that you see him using in the Johnny Kingdom BBC series (such as 'Johnny goes to Lapland') is also the old SD XL2 and NOT the latest XL-H1. Most of the main footage and sections showing Johnny is I think mainly shot by BBC cameramen using different cameras to Johhny, and footage of some of the wildlife shot by Jonny is slotted in during post.

I think he was using an XL1 or 2. I watched this series in despair as it was not even worth half an hour on some little known digital channel let alone a whole series on BBC2. The wildlife footage was appallingly shot. I guess the BEEB allowed this as it was part of Johny's quirky character that irritated me intensely.

Amazes me how they can produce programs like Planet Earth and rubbish like Johny Kingdom on the same channel!

I agree with you in some respects, especially as all of Johnny’s footage is handheld using the telephoto end of the 20X and rarely if ever on a stable tripod. But it just goes to show that big-budget channels will air material if they think that the content is interesting enough or different enough to draw viewers.
Johnny has gathered quite a following over the past decades filming on Exmoor, so obviously the Beeb thought it would be interesting enough for a series. Johnny's programs and footage have been shown in earlier BBC series, so they obviously must have had high enough viewing figures to plough money into the present series.

This thread may be of interest:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84068

Tony,

I also picked up on this afew months ago but have heard nothing since, nor seen any evidence of the completed training DVD. Have you heard or spoken too anybody who has seen footage or used with this camera combination.

Regards

Mick

This thread may be of interest:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84068

Tony,
I too picked up on this a few months ago, but have heard nothing since. Have you spoken to anybody about it or seen any of the footage from useing this combination. Also has the training DVD be produced!

Regards

Mick

Sorry about the double post thought I had lost the first one

Regards

Mick

Tony,
I too picked up on this a few months ago, but have heard nothing since. Have you spoken to anybody about it or seen any of the footage from useing this combination. Also has the training DVD be produced!

Regards

Mick

The training DVD is still in production. I've asked Nigel to contact me as soon as it is available, so he should Email or ring me when it is completed.

Tony,

I also picked up on this afew months ago but have heard nothing since, nor seen any evidence of the completed training DVD. Have you heard or spoken too anybody who has seen footage or used with this camera combination.

Regards

Mick

Hey Mick,

The website indicates a release date in February.

http://www.wildlifefilmmaking.co.uk/

Hey Mick,

The website indicates a release date in February.

http://www.wildlifefilmmaking.co.uk/

Thanks for the above, I missed the new web site.

It would be interesting to hear Mike Linley's views on the comparison between the XL H1 and the JVC's as he also lectures on the XL wildlife training courses organised by http://www.wildeye.co.uk/.

Regards

Mick

After 6 months of using the XLH1 on wildlife shooting I can say I am well pleased with the look of the footage. I shoot only in 60i and play the footage only on Sony's 25U deck. I found the other frame rates too strobey and not natural. In very fast action like bighorn rams in battles, I find the footage very stable and sharp when I do my part. Using a 1/125 shutter or faster helps and of course manual focus. I'm working on a film to be entitled The West is still Wild and I have no doubt that broadcasters won't turn me down. My last SD film is now being edited ( Journey Home ), shot over 8 years with the XL1 on the Chinook salmon on the Fraser river system, which is the greatest salmon river in the world. When the footage is viewed on a HD monitor I would say well shot SD footage is more than worthy to be aired.

Happy filming everyone,

P.S. Out for a snowshoe walk the other day and watched a marten trying to catch a fleeing snowshoe hare.

Leon Lorenz
www.wildlifevideos.ca

P.S. Out for a snowshoe walk the other day and watched a marten trying to catch a fleeing snowshoe hare.
Did you get any footage of this? I think that would have been a terrific shot to have.

I haven't been using my XLH1 for so long yet. But before that I have been shooting wildlife with XL2 for a long time. Comparing those two, I must say that the H1 is several "lightyears" ahead in getting the details of the scene.

I can not in my wildest fantasy understand why BBC (or others) would reject footage shot in HDV. This would be very snobbery.

I'm filming alone out in the wild, a long way from any roads etc and I have to carry with me all equipment on my back. The XLH1 or equvalent in size are the the limit (in size and weight) that I am able to carry with me. I also don't have any possibilities to back up my footage to any harddrive or charge any batteries during my stay out in the wild, wich can last for at least a week. The small tapes (Sony HDV digital Masters) and batteries (BP-970G) are very suitable for this. And this equipment also handle the cold and winter conditions very good.

My point is that if you have to send in a film team with huge equipment to film wildlife you will not get the genuine scenes where species behave natural. Beeing alone with small equipment you can hide and be a part of the landscape. In this way you get the scenes that film teams with millions of dollars in budgets maybe not able to get!

A lot of the the time with TV companies its the old saying that applies "He who pays the the piper calls the tune" I other words if they commission you they will dictate the format they rquire it filmed in. On the other hand if you have recorded a project in your own time and expense and then try to sell it, if its good enough and intereting enough and they buy it they will re-edit and convert to the format they require it in. Judgeing by some recent footage I have seen here on TV the Xl h1 is more than able to hold its own. Even BBC south here still gather their news items useing DVcam and mini dv.

Regards

Mick

I'm hoping that as this is only a BBC Wales program, they will accept the footage from the XL H1 as there is not the budget for a full-blown wildlife crew that they would use for Planet Earth.

Per Johan, I never had my camera but it happened too fast too fast unless you were filming something else and the chase came in your viewfinder it would be impossible to film. Sadly these type of rare shots are often staged by big companies.

I agree with you 100% that a lone filmmaker will more often get the rare things that a film team with a big budget won't. Hard work more often pays off than big budgets to capture nature's secrets.

Leon Lorenz
www.wildlifevideos.ca

I've finally had a definitive reply from Canon UK 12 days after I lodged my enquiry. I requested some sample wildlife footage but they do not have any. I asked if I could do a test with the H1 and they could then get some sample footage but this was declined as they have a strict policy that cameras can only be distributed/hired/loaned from their restricted number of outlets in the UK.

I contacted Creative Video Productions who were helpful and sympathetic but they do not have sample footage and cannot let me have a camera to trial. They tried to steer me in the direction of an XDCAM Sony 330K at £10,500 Exc VAT. An adaptor for 35mm lenses is around £200. I doubt if the budget will support this.

Calumet may be able to help and are looking into doing some kind of favourable hire rate.

So, I am still looking for some sample first generation wildlife footage shot with 35mm still lenses in order for the production company I have approached to evaluate its quality. If anyone can help, I would be most grateful.

Andy

It is not so much that networks are not excepting HDV, they are not accepting it as an HD format. You can shoot it, but submit it as SD. To be on what is Classified as HD, it has to be a higher end camera. As companies like Nat Geo and Discovery are moving production into HD, they will not supprt HDV, because to them it is not going to have shelf life after a few years.

With budgets the way they are now, you will start to see networks bending rules.

Having done a lot of research for my own productions, I would not want to use HDV, as it is incredible bad to work with!!! This group of pixels thing is one of the worst inventions! You may want to look at other options such as upconveting, and changing to intraframe compression.

I think with Panisonics P2 camera you are close to Broadcast HD, but still off. I have been looking at Ikagami's HD camera that uses notebook harddrives, and it is by far the best setup out there for tapeless. If Canon and Panasonic could realize that off the shelf HD's are the way to go, we can jump to an intermediate HD format, and skip HDV. Why spend 1200 for 8gb card when you can get a 120gb hard drive for $200? For someone shoting in the field, you can just take 10 drives with you and get 15hrs of full HD.

I too was looking at the XLhd1 as I shoot my current series on an xl1s, and have all the gear, but with Canon using the same chips as sony, it will be my last Canon camera (they are also really fragile in extreme conditions)

my two cents..

Michael

I recently shot doco material in Borneo and Sumatra on DVCPRO50 and a Sony HC1 HDV camera. When a still subject like a closeup of an orangutan was filmed with the HC1 in good light and contrast, and the ape didn't move much, the result was almost indistinguishable from the big camera.

But when I filmed the orangs swinging through the contrasty jungle in wide shots, it looked dreadful. And I mean DREADFUL. Artifacts, noise, smearing, you name it.

Peter

But when I filmed the orangs swinging through the contrasty jungle in wide shots, it looked dreadful. And I mean DREADFUL. Artifacts, noise, smearing, you name it.
You don't tell anything about your settings in this shot? All the described faults could easily be due to wrong settings on the camcorder (aperture, shutter and gain settings).
What was your settings on the DVCPRO50 system compared to the HC1? As far as I know the HC1 dosn't support 720p, did you shoot 1080i with both?

Camparing the Sony HC1 HDV a $2000 camcorder using a CMOS-chip with a DVCPRO50 3ccd system dosn't make sense at all IMHO.

You don't tell anything about your settings in this shot? All the described faults could easily be due to wrong settings on the camcorder (aperture, shutter and gain settings).
What was your settings on the DVCPRO50 system compared to the HC1? As far as I know the HC1 dosn't support 720p, did you shoot 1080i with both?

Camparing the Sony HC1 HDV a $2000 camcorder using a CMOS-chip with a DVCPRO50 3ccd system dosn't make sense at all IMHO.


Okay, we had to use the HC1 because I fell into a river with the PRO50 and had nothing else to use. The PRO50 was PAL interlace SD. The HC1 was used in 1080i mode. We had to shoot for the last three days in the jungle with the HDV as our A Camera. The HDV was downconverted to SD for editing. We tried various means and found the best way was to digitise native HDV then export to uncompressed 10-bit HD then scale to SD.

Andrew wanted to know if it was suitable for BBC-quality wildlife shooting. If the subject matter warrants it, probably VHS would be acceptable. But what I'm saying is when conditions are difficult and they were difficult every day in Sumatra, then the compression system of HDV just doesn't hold up. We were filming oragutans in heavy contrasty jungle panning slowly (and rapidly) with them through trees. We often had bright overcast sky coming through the clouds. The PRO50 coped well with this, but the HDV just broke up with artifacting in the pans and camera movements.

I'm not comparing a PRO50 3-CCD camera with a single CMOS chip camera. I'm comparing a 4:2:2 low compression format with a more compressed lossy MPEG2 format. If I could have I would have input the HCI CMOS into the PRO50 VTR and recorded as a stream.

As I said in my previous post with the right conditions the HC1 looked very close to the SD PRO50. But when the lighting, subject movement and detail in the frame got excessive, HDV couldn't cope. The resultant video is shown daily on a $15,000 50" HD plasma and the diference is obvious to me and others. With all due respect the evangelism that people have towards HDV bamboozles me. Yes used in the right circumstances, HDV is great but Andrew is talking about flogging videos to the BBC and I doubt a Canon H1 would crack it unless the DOP and subject matter are extraordinary.

All the described faults could easily be due to wrong settings on the camcorder (aperture, shutter and gain settings).

Sorry, meant to add. The shutter for the HC1 was set to auto with an optical 0.3 ND, no gain. We monitored on a Sony PVM-L3 component monitor.

... before that I have been shooting wildlife with XL2 for a long time. Comparing those two, I must say that the H1 is several "lightyears" ahead in getting the details of the scene.
.....
My point is that if you have to send in a film team with huge equipment to film wildlife you will not get the genuine scenes where species behave natural. Being alone with small equipment you can hide and be a part of the landscape. In this way you get the scenes that film teams with millions of dollars in budgets maybe not able to get!

Two more clever observations from the voice of informed experience ... the sort of thing that might be included under "UWOL #2 How to get it better" (where they are looking for you Per);

But whenever you've time I'd be most interested in your views about shooting vulture flight with XLH1. I accept it is much too heavy to be hand-held but I am particularly interested in how you find that it improves "details of the scene". Do you mean it can pick up details that are "far away"; or details that are "in background and foreground or midway" or some combination of these; or details of the target "in manual focus" to the exclusion of background. Your footage of the gulls in the gale was shot against a fairly bright background and plumage details rarely showed apart from the remarkable moment when one gull looked straight at you. So that footage does not tell me what XLH1 could achieve shooting bigger birds in flight. Any observations or suggestions would be as welcome as ever.

Hi just been told that my name was mentioned recently so i thought I'd raise my head above the parapet for the first time. must just say that I have been watching this forum for years and found it absolutely INVALUABLE for finding out about my cameras so thank you Chris.
Yes i do run courses for the xl series of cameras and i do have a 3 hour training video coming out on the use of hdv cameras for wildlife film making using the jvc as an example....and its a great camera.....but i own an xl1, xl2, xlh1 and an xm2.
I'd be happy to contribute further now that i have dipped my to in the water.but i am not that great at typing !!!

Hi Mike,

Thanks for coming on board, Im sure your input will be greatly valued especially as you have first hand knowlege of both Canon and JVC HDV cameras.

Regards

Mick

Does anyone know what cameras BBC used to shoot the series Planet Earth? I noticed some low light and night footage that looked really good. The night footage of some of the wildlife however looked lite-up and may have been staged. I hope they haven't gotten into staging the rare and difficult shots as I would lose my interest in their series pretty quick.

Thanks,

Leon Lorenz
www.wildlifevideos.ca

The BBC used Panasonic Varicams

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/news_info/ibc/022.html

For the price of only one Panasonic AJ-HDC27FE you got near 9 Canon XLH1, comparing recommended price for those two products!
The thread subject was: Camera for broadcast wildlife for BBC (HDV). I think we are a bit off topic in the discussing right now?

I haven't been using my XLH1 for so long yet. But before that I have been shooting wildlife with XL2 for a long time. Comparing those two, I must say that the H1 is several "lightyears" ahead in getting the details of the scene.



I wonder Per if you could post a good clip taken with your XL2 and a good clip taken with your H1, to show us the difference in quality. (I imagine that the clips would have to be comparable as to telephoto distances, weather conditions, lighting etc.) It's difficult to visualise what you mean about "getting details of the scene", but I'd like very much to know.

It would be very difficult to see the difference in quality from clips shot on the XL2 & XL-H1 by simply viewing greatly compressed footage streamed via the web and viewed on a PC screen, so I can't see how Per can show a real-world comparison.

Both shown on a normal SD widescreen TV would be fairly close, but the H1 would begin to show its strengths only if both were shown on a high quality HD screen...and even in 2007, very few people actualy own one (compared to the population in each country owning a TV).

I can't see the BBC rejecting well-shot and interesting work produced from the XL-H1 and it is probably the very best HDV camera in that price range (BBC and Discovery networks etc still accept a lot of stuff shot on the Z1 for example). If your budget can stretch, then go for full HD camera - such as the Red etc, rather than HDV.

For the record Johnny Kingdom " A Year on Exmoor " was shot by myself on a Sony WSP450 2/3" DVCAM with a Canon J9 Broadcast lens and occasionally an XL2. Virtually all the wildlife footage was from a Canon XL2 shot by JK himself (some using 35mm still lenses) and also infrared footage recorded on a 1/4" chip sony minidv handicam. All mastered on to Digibeta for delivery. Yes the wildlife footage was wobbly on the end of the 20x zoom and the focusing dodgy at times but 3 million viewers tuned every single week for 10 weeks to see it!
Delivered on digi you'll have a reasonably hard job to spot the difference between the xl2 and the 450 most of the time.
In this case content was king and the shooting format almost irrelevent.

...but 3 million viewers tuned every single week for 10 weeks to see it!

In this case content was king and the shooting format almost irrelevent.

Just what I was trying to say.

Thank you Rupert, for providing full information on the cameras and equipment used. I look forward to seeing more of your work.

[QUOTE=Rupert Smith]

In this case content was king and the shooting format almost irrelevent.

[QUOTE=Tony Davies-Patrick]

Just what I was trying to say.




Ditto above

Mick