the HV20 will probably not serve well as a deck for footage shot 24f w/ the H1/A1/G1... Many have been using the Hv10 for that purpose.. hopefully that little camera will not go away immediatelyWhat makes you say that, Steve? The HV10 and HV20 share the exact same tape transport. There's no absolutely difference between them as far as playback capabilities are concerned, and there's no logical reason why an HV20 wouldn't serve well as an HV10, as a deck for footage shot in Frame mode from the bigger Canon camcorders.

it seems likely that the much contemplated successor to the H1 will have... even higher resolution than 1080i...Then it wouldn't be HDV. It's still a little early for that yet.

The 24F is dead from the point of view that the HV20 is natively progressive as it uses CMOS chip and thus will record 24P.

The F in 24F/25F/30F only really refers to the way the XL-H1 and XH-A1/G1s produce their progressive footage from interlaced CCDs and has little to do with the legalities of using 24P as a nomenclature it has more to do with being honest with the consumer. Which I applaud.

As we all can see 24F is 24P no matter how it is generated.

TT

I think honest misinformation takes on a life of its own. Not that Tony is wrong, but theories abound:

1.) CMOS pixels are byte addressable
2.) That this or that sensor is natively progressive

I won't accept these distinctions until proved. As to the first point, who really has any earthly idea how a chip is scanned, i.e. shift register versus byte addressable? It's one thing when you have a product data sheet on it, which in the case of proprietary chips made by Canon themselves for their consumer products, you don't! Until proved otherwise, (and I'd love to be) this information just comes down the same old marketing pipeline.

As to the second point, it flies in the face of logic that so called natively progressive sensors find first applications in interlaced cams, witness FX7 and HV10.

I think at most what could be said is that a chip is inherently neither progressive or interlaced. It's just what is done with it.

Tom

There are progressive CCDs and interlaced CCDs used in HVX 200 and XL-H1 respectively. How they create non-native streams is down to the intellectual wherewithal of the manufacturer.

You were right to pick me up on saying that CMOS are natively progressive. I should have qualified what I meant to avoid ambiguity. Clearly Canon differentiate between 24F and 24P themselves. I suspect the HV20 will scan its CMOS chips progressively when recording 24P thus Canon use the P. 24F being derived from interlaced CCDs they feel unable to label it 24P progressive even though it is.

In 60i/50i I would expect the HV20 CMOS chips to be scanned interlaced. But there are several ways to skin a cat in that regard. It could scan 60P/50P and leave the interlacing to the encoder. Who knows?

TT

Sorry to bring this up again, buy last year a Canon Rep told me at a Canon showing off of the H1 that you could record to tape and yet capturing through the HD-SDI port to another codec would allow for more robust info to come in than normal HDV.
Now, some people have claimed this, but this has generally been shot down by everyone who knows anything.
I have a feeling this workflow was what the person was referring to

...record to tape and yet capturing through the HD-SDI port to another codec would allow for more robust info to come in than normal HDV.Scott Billups told me face-to-face about this method and swears by it.

Sorry to bring this up again, buy last year a Canon Rep told me at a Canon showing off of the H1 that you could record to tape and yet capturing through the HD-SDI port to another codec would allow for more robust info to come in than normal HDV.
Now, some people have claimed this, but this has generally been shot down by everyone who knows anything.
I have a feeling this workflow was what the person was referring to

What happens in this scenario John, is that in order to comply with the specs of HDSDI, the camera will take the recorded material which is 4:2:0 long gop, and upsample the chroma back to 4:2:2 uncompressed and spit it out that way. The quality of chroma upsampling is questionable by many, but others say it makes a difference, especially for pulling cleaner keys.

-gb-

Yes Chris,
I will wait until WWDC to see about a MacPro purchase and get the Footage in this way Myself,
Thanks,
J

What happens in this scenario John, is that in order to comply with the specs of HDSDI, the camera will take the recorded material which is 4:2:0 long gop, and upsample the chroma back to 4:2:2 uncompressed and spit it out that way. The quality of chroma upsampling is questionable by many, but others say it makes a difference, especially for pulling cleaner keys.

-gb-

For best quality, the HD SDI should be taken straight out of the camera, not recorded first onto HDV.

http://videoediting.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=43573

For using an intermediate codec in post, here's Cineform's arguement:

http://www.cineform.com/technology/HDVQualityAnalysis/HDVQualityAnalysis.htm

For best quality, the HD SDI should be taken straight out of the camera, not recorded first onto HDV.Most everyone here already knows that. The point is that it's not always possible to do record straight from SDI though, especially when shooting in the field. The methodology that John brought up (record to HDV, but play back via SDI output) is not being positioned here as anything other than just a better way to ingest material that was originally recorded to HDV.

Most everyone here already knows that. The point is that it's not always possible to do record straight from SDI though, especially when shooting in the field. The methodology that John brought up (record to HDV, but play back via SDI output) is not being positioned here as anything other than just a better way to ingest material that was originally recorded to HDV.

Yes, recording from the HD SDI in the field is a problem, for example the Wafian HR-1 operates from the mains and doesn't seem to have a means for battery power.

Hello,
We are considering purchasing 2 or 3 XL-H1s as the PBS station we deal with has suggested "true HD".
Can we capture "true HD" using a disk recorder such as the one listed here.

http://www.videoguys.com/FireStore.html#Anchor-CAPTURIN-28938

Thanks so much,
Randy
We are also considering one of the Sony XDCAMs but they really aren't in our budget.

Can you get a more detailed description of what is PBS is calling "True HD?" My understanding is that 1920x1080 is what "True HD" is supposed to be. (I believe this is mostly a marketing gimmick to sandbag competition that records 1280x720 on lower res chips anyway). But the only camera I know of that has a "True HD" chip is the HV10 and HV20 but they record to 1440x1080 1.33 PAR compressed HDV. So they are not stored at "true HD" resolution.

The H1 actually has a 1440x1080 Chip that stores at 1440x1080 compressed HDV. Which is better? I think the H1. The H1 will allow for you to use the SDI out and bypass all of the HDV compression. But you still aren't getting 1920x1080 out the SDI spigot. I mean...it might be that resolution but the original chip wasn't so it kinda upsampled.

The HV20 supposedly outputs true 1920x1080 through its HDMI connector. That might technically be a "true HD" feed but this camera is not a real option for professional videography because of the form factor and consumerish layout. Still, if you are just looking at numbers it does output "true HD" but numbers aren't everything. The image from an H1 at 1440x1080 is going to look light years better than the HV20 at 1920x1080 simply by virtue of better design. Numbers are just that. Numbers.

Either way, the Firestore you are linking to will only record the HDV stream of either of these cameras and that is a 1440x1080 stream. So again....no true HD from either of them using this device.

Hello,
We are considering purchasing 2 or 3 XL-H1s as the PBS station we deal with has suggested "true HD".
Can we capture "true HD" using a disk recorder such as the one listed here.

http://www.videoguys.com/FireStore.html#Anchor-CAPTURIN-28938

Thanks so much,
Randy
We are also considering one of the Sony XDCAMs but they really aren't in our budget.

<i>Can you get a more detailed description of what is PBS is calling "True HD?" My understanding is that 1920x1080 is what "True HD" is supposed to be. (I believe this is mostly a marketing gimmick to sandbag competition that records 1280x720 on lower res chips anyway)</i>

Thanks Marty,
I agree and I don't know what they're calling "true HD" other than it meeting the criteria to be broadcast as HD. We've been using a couple of XL1S' and a Sony Z1. They (PBS) used the Z1 as an example of not being "true HD". This was a prog director though and may not know what he's talking about.
We have the option of buying more Z1s, XL-H1, or the $18K Sony XDCAM. I feel the XDCAM is more than we need at this point.

Thanks again Marty,
Randy

Depending on what their specifics are, the Z1 may not meet them. Heck, the H1 might not meet them. The problem here is there needs to be a clear precise description of what "True HD" is. Then we can determine what they will accept. Many have bought into the hype that HDV is not really HD when in fact it is. Many have bought into the hype that the HDV format is so compressed that is is unwatchable. This is not true.

Good Luck and let us know if you get any real answers to this!

Marty

<i> They (PBS) used the Z1 as an example of not being "true HD". This was a prog director though and may not know what he's talking about.

Years ago... or ages ago... I remember an engineer at the local PBS station in HB, CA say... about broadcasting the tape (which was airable) at the time.

"What can be broadcasted. Well, it depends on which engineer is working at the time of airing."

I'm thinking that what the prog director is basing his statement on is some of the footage has poor composition by some of the interns we have in the past handed a camera to and said "here go shoot". Poor lighting etc. may subconciously trigger a prog director to think it is the quality of the cam when in fact, as you know, an inexperienced camera operator can make a $100K camera look bad. If the show is shot well (from now on) and the content is satisfactory to them (which is) I don't think they'll reject it but maybe I should make sure prior to the purchase.
Anyway, this purchase is on my shoulders and I guess I just want you guys to agree that the H1 is the best choice for this price point.

Thanks again,
Randy

Find out what tape formats they take and give it to them on that...

I am going through this as we speak - I have a 30 minute documentary that was shot on the H1, edited native HDV on FCP and looks drop-dead gorgeous - But I've got to get it past PBS engineer-types who have their heads buried so deep in their scopes they haven't seen a real-life image in years - sorry for the rant, but, I've commented on this over the past year several times...

These arbitrary assertions are obviously intended to give PMs easy ways to say "no" (or if they've been brought up correctly "no thank you").

But, in their defence, the proliferation of consumer and prosumer cameras has resulted in a lot of garbage being produced.. A LOT!!! Like thousands and thousands of shows passing across desks that were built to accomodate a max of 100 tapes... So they've made up little rules to eliminate a large segment of submissions...

In most cases they aren't even airing in HD anyway.. In my case I'm providing a DigiBeta or, where appropriate, an HDCam dub - and not telling them what I shot it on.. and so far no one has asked...

Randy,

Have you seen this clip. If not, it's really useful.

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/video/7871.html

Several pro's discussing the use of HDV. Bear in mind that the H1 has an HD-SDI output bypassing HDV compression.

I think they mention that really well shot HDV can hold up to the bigger cams. Poorly shot HDV is hard to save in post.

Thanks very much guys...lots of good advice and info!
Randy

Tree Canada releases First Canadian documentary on trees entitled Places of Green on June 9th @7 pm on Global TV right across the country. Shot on stunning HD, a Sony HDCAM for the most part and the wildlife in this program was shot with my Canon XLH1. As you'll see the XLH1 holds its own very well.

Enjoy,

Leon Lorenz
www.wildlifevideos.ca

Did you use the HDV recorder in camera (and if so... what settings... ie 24F, etc.) or did you use the SDI out and record to some other format... disk, etc.? Thanks in advance...

Frank, I capture to tape and only on 60i. I find the playback smooth and natural, unlike the other frame rates. I usually use 1/120 second shutter or higher for fast action.

Got some terrific footage the other day of a grizzly circling me at about 100 feet. Exciting stuff.

Best regards,

Leon Lorenz
www.wildlifevideos.ca