I hear so many good things about Cineform on these forums. But for me, it has been one big dissapointment. I am not talking about the quality of the footage which is superb... but about the performance.

I am using Aspecd HD (latest build) with Premier Pro 2.0. When I am capturing footage using batch capture I get many errors. This is a batch capture log generated by Premier Pro 2.0:

Batch Capture started: 14-1-2007 17:57:18
-----------------------------------------
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_18.avi - Capture Failed: Bad timecode range
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_19.avi - Capture Failed: File error
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_20.avi - Capture Failed: File error
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_21.avi - Capture Success
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_22.avi - Capture Success
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_23.avi - Capture Success
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_24.avi - Capture Failed: File error
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_25.avi - Capture Success
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_26.avi - Capture Success
\Mistero Buffo.prproj\05-01-2006 Deel 2\05012006_27.avi - Capture Success

Batch Capture ended: 14-1-2007 18:57:59

The first one is logical because it is the beginning of the tape. This first few seconds should be captured manually. But, the Capture Failed: File error messages only occur when using the Cineform codec. I cannot find an explanation why they occur. But this is not the biggest problem. When capturing is done, Premiere Pro 2.0. crashes in 99% of the cases. I first thought this was Premier Pro 2.0 behaviour. But to make sure, I have created two projects with exactly the same in and out points for each file. The only difference being the codec used. With the normal codec, everything is fine and the MPEG files are captured without any problems. Only the first message "bad time code range" is also displayed. But after all files are capture, I can close the capture windows without a freeze. With the Cineform codec, whatever I do, the program hangs on the capture window.

The other thing is the way it works. I pay $500 for software. First of all, I did not know that I needed to deactivate the program first. I know that is my fault, but no other program I ever used works this way. I filled the activation form in again and I got a new code. Perfecet. Then I had a problem with some hardware in my computer which resulted in a crash which forced me to install Windows again. I could not deactivate because I could not get into Windows anymore. I installed everything again but then found out that I could not active Cineform Aspect HD anymore. I contacted customer support and got a warning and I was allowed to resubmit again.

Because of the problems with capturing, I thought it might be Premiere Pro 2.0 so I installed the whole program again. I deactivated the Cineform but somehow it went wrong in the proces. I uninstalled it to find out that only the next day I received an e-mail stating that deactivation failed. So now I uninstalled the program and therefore I could not activate anymore. I have mailed customer support about this but haven't heard back from them.

I really do not think this is customer friendly. Adobe also used activation/de-activation but when I uninstall without deactivation and reinstall, it works fine without any problems. Only when I want to use it on another computer, I need to deactivate. This is the way it should work. Now I feel really bad as I payed $500 for this software which I cannot use anymore. I really agree with activation/deactivation but why can't they do it in a more customer friendly way like many other companies do?

I am sorry that for once, this is not a positive message but for me Cineform just has not been a very enjoyable experience. I hope that there is a solution for my problems as the codec's image quality is fabulously.

Have you tried HDlink?

How about HDVsplit? I used this to get around my capture issue. I then used HDlink convert to CFHD avi.

CFHD is great stuff, and the stuff if by far the best of any company I have worked with. Just need to get them something to work with since unless it is a class issue, ....

Dave

I am not sure if I can follow you arguments. If Premiere Pro capturing works fine with the normal codec and crashes Premiere Pro with Cineform there is obviously something not right. As I paid $500 for the software, this is something I cannot really appreciate. It is not a class issue. If something works, it works. And like I said, the footage looks superb so I hope this can be solved so I can ejoy their software as everyone else here.

All I can offer is I had the same issue. Opened a ticket, and worked with CF.
I then tried another version, and now the problem went away. Was it the version? Was it some type of other patch update? There are SO many things going on with the computer, to say its CF without proof, ..

I found an issue the other day, and a few others had seen it. I found the root cause area, and CF had it fixed in a day.

So, all I am offering, is be careful about saying any piece of single s/w is the issue without lots of data.

Just my experience.

Dave

Capturing in a native Adobe HDV project is just capturing a M2T right off of the tape. Relatively easy for the PC.

Capturing to a Cineform Aspect HD project involves converting the file on the fly as it captures. Much harder.

That is why we suggested steps for you. If you don't want it to work, and just want to complain, then do not ask for assistance.

I will try those things but there still is this activation/deactivation issue. As long as I do not here from Cineform... I will have to wait.

Pretty clear about activation/deactivation. So, whats the issue?

Dave

The issue is that I currently have cannot activate or deactivate Aspect HD as I deactivated a few days ago. I then uninstalled both Premier and Aspect HD to do a reinstall to find out that I got an e-mail the next day that deactivation failed. I have contacted Cineform about this but I haven't heard back from them. I they will contact me about this.

Our email server (third party provider) went down for a day, losing some email. However support tells me that have already sent a follow up this morning.

Thanks david. I am in contact with one of your customer service employees right now about the activation/deactivation issue and am also submitting a technical support ticket for the capturing issue.

So what is the recommend scenario for capturing a full tape? I understand that capturing in Premiere is not the best solution. So I can use HDLink. I have tried this today but during capture it stops two times. I can then continue so I will end up with 3 files. However, no error messages are displayed during the stop in the HDLink log. Is it possible to capture 63 minutes in one .avi file? I have tried to time but no success.

The activation/deactivation issue is solved. I checked the log in the CineForm directory to find out that all submitted information is stored there and I discovered that I switched a 1 and a F in the deactivation code. I resubmitted it again with the correct deactiation code and not it worked. So that shouldn't be a problem anymore. I still hope your company will make this process more customer friendly in the future (i.e. like Adobe).

Use HDVsplit to get the Mt2. Then use HDlink to convert to CFHD.

Dave

I had real problems with HDLink, stopping during capture - it took me a few goes to capture some scenes... a real pain. BUT, that was with an older release, so I've no idea if they've fixed that problem.

I wish I had captured the M2T first, and then converted - at least I'd have the M2T still around if I was ever worried about the 'Medium' CFHD avi being of lesser quality - but Cineform say to use Medium, as there is no discernable differnence between Medium and High - so I did what they said :)

I hate to say it, but I do sometimes wonder whether I should have just stuck to editing the native M2T files in Premiere Pro 2... but it's too late now, with around 35hrs of footage captured!

But hey, when it DOES work, it's great - smooooth as you like... BUT I don't know whether it's Premiere or Aspect or AMD or XP, but I'm forced to save constantly in case I get one of those random crashes...

Douglas, et al.,

There are no known crashing issues due to CineForm products, we worked for months with Adobe certification on Prospect HD to make sure of this (Aspect HD is built from the Prospect HD code base.) However large project in Premiere Pro in general can cause problems without careful memory management (which CineForm helps solve better than native HDV.) Still for feature work we strongly recommend breaking the large project into 20 minute (or shorter) reels to prevent PPro running low on memory (Premiere can only address around 1.5GB, so you 4GB system will not help.)

As for these capture issues discussed within this thread, these are more camera related, for most customers this doesn't come up as their camera/system doesn't do it. We understand that the high computer load for real-time encoding causes some camera/systems to disconnect, cause the capture to stop (this is why swapping put Firewire cards can help.) With our many thousands of customers there will always be combinations we haven't tested. If there is a particular camera system combination that does this only your report through the trouble ticket system will allow to collect the data a solve the issue. Accurate system details, camera models, and video formats are the data we need -- via the ticket system please.

P.S. I will be offline at Sundance for a long weekend, so I may not find the time for much follow-up until mid-next week.

Well, I have the latest version with Premiere Pro 2, and all I can say is that capturing within Premiere is at best hit and miss. The last two 30 minute tapes I captured took around 4 hours each by the time I went back and captured pieces that didn't make it, or looked like a mosiac after transcoding. Opened up a ticket, but frankly don't have the time to go backwards and forwards with a support organization that provides support via email. It's a process that takes days to get things resolved.
Back to m2t for me.

Ron,

That is a shame, as you problem sounds very fixable (anytime you "mosiac" artifact it mean your firewire interface is dropping packets -- time to get a new firewire card.) We do electronic support to increase the number of customers we can help, and we do call customers when needed. Unfortunately we have to limit incoming calls to support as we find we spend a lot of time explaining Premeire and the fundumentals of video editing and not helping customers with real CineForm questions. The online stuff also allowa the support stuff to help when they are not in the office, so it is the best solution for a small company.

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but I have to say ..... in the past 12 months or so I've used PPro2 and Aspect HD in combination with several HD cameras, on 4 different computer systems running everything from a P4 2.8GHz to a X2 4400+ to an overclocked Core2 6300, with multiple upgrades and de/reactivations and motherboard swops along the way. And I have NEVER had any problem capturing HDV with any of them.

From my perspective, it has been the most stable NLE setup I've used to date.

\unsolicited rant off.

I am happy that Premiere Pro 2.0 is working for you. I am sure it does work for a lot of people. But I have the impression (because of my searches on multiple forums) that Premiere Pro 2.0 is very unstable. I have been working with Final Cut Pro for years and it rarely crashes. I have spoken with different people, with people in different stores... and many (not all) have problems with PP. I have paid like $1800 for the suite and then you get "Sorry, Premiere Pro has encountered a serious error""). When you look this up in their support documents they let you do everything from trying other firewire cards to installing windows again. My point is that I do not want to spend another 100 hours on troubleshooting. A good program works on almost all computers without any problems. Why does iTunes never crash on me? Why do all Google applications never crash on my three different systems? The only applications that have weird crashes are the Adobe applications. And if they would provide error codes.... so you can search in a specific direction it would have been much easier. So that's the reason why I will most likely switch to Vegas.

And I think many of the Cineform problems also come from Adobe's buggy coding. I am not an expert, but this is just not good. Too many people are experiencing random crashes and freezes.

Why does iTunes never crash on me? Why do all Google applications never crash on my three different systems? The only applications that have weird crashes are the Adobe applications. And if they would provide error codes.... so you can search in a specific direction it would have been much easier. So that's the reason why I will most likely switch to Vegas.

And I think many of the Cineform problems also come from Adobe's buggy coding. I am not an expert, but this is just not good. Too many people are experiencing random crashes and freezes.


Trying to compare iTunes and Google to PPro 2, is like trying to compare a model car with a real Ferrari! Just not the same.

I used PPro 2 and CineForm and I am doing fine. I can understand you urge to switch programs, and it may be the best thing for you to do, as you will always feel leary about it even when it is fixed. Peace of mind is a nice thing.

You must remember that with many many thousands, maybe millions, of satisfied owners using PPro 2 and or CineForm, there will always be some who have problems. Some may have ligitimate problems, some have home made computers, thrown together with the "best parts" according to their friends, and some will just refuse to check out the most simple parts when asked, like Firewire cables.

I hope that you get your problem fixed or switch to the program you like. Keep us updated on what you discover. Maybe someday I'll need the information.

Best of luck----Mike

I think you are absolute right about that. And of course, Premiere Pro is used by more people around the world so more people will encounter problems. But for me, I just tested my whole configuration with multiple programs and Premiere Pro is the one that keeps crashing on me. I know that iTunes is not the same as Premiere Pro... but at the end, when I am rewriting tags to MP3 files both my harddisks and both of my CPUs are taking the full load. With 200GB of music, I think I can say that video editing is not very different (capturing is with the firewire cable and camera involved... but all the "encountered a serious error" messages are when clicking in the timeline, in the menu etcetera. The capture panel is where the program freezes. I really would like to test everything but time does not allow me to. I have been troubleshooting for like 100 hours the last month (Panda Antivirus was causing havoc) and I just want to start working instead of figuring out which card in my pc could interfere with Premiere. I heard that Soundblaster cards are not very good with Premiere. But I do not plan to replace that card only for the benefit of Premiere. So for now, I am going to use Vegas as that application allows me to do exactly what I should at this moment: work.

The good thing is that I can still use the Cineform codec.

I believe that I have heard of the Sound Blaster problem! Sure might be worth a try, just borrow one and swap it out for a test.

Good Luck---Mike

I have two soundcards in my system so I can take the Soundblaster out when I want. But I am not going to rip apart my system for the benefit of Premiere. If this is a known problem, let them solve it. Premiere is the only application that has not received an update since its launch. Do you really believe there have been no bugs since it was released 6 months ago? Adobe is probarbly hard at work on Premiere Pro 3.0 for which I will have to pay $700 again. No, I have made my mind-up and am switching to another program.

Try Vegas. Spot swears by it, and not at it, I assume.

Although I don't see the point of two sound cards.

And there has never been an upgrade that cost that much for Premiere or Premiere Pro. Perhaps for the entire Production Studio, but no one app.

I might keep the Production Studio running on my computer as well. There is a lot of demand for it so I already have a few interested people. It's not that I do not want to give it a chance. But for now, I really need to get going so that's the reason why I decided to switch to Vegas. The two soundcards... one is on-board (ADI HD sound on Asus Commando motherboard). I sometimes mix music using Traktor and then you need two soundcards to have real-time monitoring on two channels through your headphone.

But both Adobe and Creative are big brands. They should make sure their products work with each other to keep customers satisfied.

But both Adobe and Creative are big brands. They should make sure their products work with each other to keep customers satisfied.


Yup and Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes Benz, Mack truck and Caterpillar ought to get together to make us just one good car we can all use with interchangeable parts!

Well, maybe not Ford! Just kidding! :) :)

Mike

I agree with you. But a computer is a computer. On the Adobe Production Studio box, Adobe does not mention that it does not work with Creative Soundblaster hardware. It also does not say that any other hardware parts in my computer are incompatible. My system meets the system requirements. So I think it should just work. The car manufactures do not state that their cars can use parts of other cars.... which they might well can. But that is one of the main reasons why man people use mac hardware. I think the best thing to do is to buy certified hardware... at this moment I do not have the money for that. But once my company starts making profits... I will do that. Then both my PC manufacturer as Adobe or any other company guarantee me that it works.

My soundblaster audigy 2 card has worked fine with Ppro for years.

Dave

I agree with you. But a computer is a computer. On the Adobe Production Studio box, Adobe does not mention that it does not work with Creative Soundblaster hardware. It also does not say that any other hardware parts in my computer are incompatible. My system meets the system requirements. So I think it should just work. The car manufactures do not state that their cars can use parts of other cars.... which they might well can. But that is one of the main reasons why man people use mac hardware. I think the best thing to do is to buy certified hardware... at this moment I do not have the money for that. But once my company starts making profits... I will do that. Then both my PC manufacturer as Adobe or any other company guarantee me that it works.

Every manufacturer makes their equipment to their own design and specifications, because they want market share. They want the priority software and short lived patents that go with it. If they don't compete against each other, they die. If they cooperate and just get along and join, someone will innovate them out of business. And, it takes only a very short time.

At Apple, if you are a big fan of theirs, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak (or however it is spelled,) "GAVE" the PC industry to Bill Gates by not allowing others to manufacture their computer equipment and license their software. There might be no PC's at all now and Gates may not be the wealthiest man in the world, if they had not done that! Ditto with Sony and Beta.

The rapid development of all kinds of hardware and software, without regard to others is what has gotten us this far so very fast. If not for that, we may have not gotten much past my old Commodore! Without competition there is just no progress!

Business is not "Can't we all just get along!," and thank God it is not, or we wouldn't have so many of the great things we have now.

I share your frustration, but understand that it is the price of progress. If we don't want progress, then let's just shoot on SD MiniDV, or go back to VCR tapes, and no NLE's. Remember those "Flying head erasers?"

I'll stick with what we have, even with the problems. Well, until something new that is! :)

I'm out of here------Mike

But a computer is a computer. On the Adobe Production Studio box, Adobe does not mention that it does not work with Creative Soundblaster hardware. It also does not say that any other hardware parts in my computer are incompatible. My system meets the system requirements. So I think it should just work.

Unfortunately, many configurations don't work well. You mentioned Creative. Check the user forums on their website to find a large number of posts from frustrated users (as just one example, some sound cards are not compatible with some RAID controllers).

Best,
Christopher

At Apple, if you are a big fan of theirs, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak (or however it is spelled,) "GAVE" the PC industry to Bill Gates by not allowing others to manufacture their computer equipment and license their software. There might be no PC's at all now and Gates may not be the wealthiest man in the world.

Well Mike, that's kind of true. The 'PC' industry more or less started when IBM announced the PC in the early 80's. They needed an operating system and guess who had just what they were looking for...Bill Gates. He essentially wrote IBM PC DOS. Now IBM, in a radical departure from their normal business practices, actually allowed Bill to sell the same OS under the MS-DOS moniker. After a few years, the PC 'clones' began to show up and since you couldn't buy IBM-DOS without buying one of their systems, the clone makers turned to Microsoft.

But yes, Apple hurt themselves by not allowing anyone to build Apple clones and run their OS on them. The competitive nature of the PC clone industry led to lower costs and wider market acceptance.

However, had IBM not taken the unusual route of allowing Gates to sell the same OS under his own company name, there would have been PC's but Gates wouldn't have amassed a fortune from MS-DOS. IBM's first showing of the PC had a closed architecture where you couldn't install any add-ons, but that didn't fly with consumers who had already been exposed to the Apple, Atari, & Commodore systems where you could plug in expansion boards. So the big, corporate giant had to change their way of thinking in order to play in the fledgling personal computer arena.

It's amazing to see where we've come in the last 26 years.

Just reminiscing,

-gb-

You are all right. I really agree with what is said by everyone. But that does mean that you have to make decisions. Although I did want to use Premiere, its behaviour on my computer was not acceptable. Then I can put 50 hours in troubleshooting which might solve the problem. But maybe it won't which means I have "wasted" another 50 hours. Vegas is working on my system so that's why I have decided to go that route at this moment. This does mean that I need to learn my way around in another editor. That will also take many, many hours... but at least that does not feel like wasted because I then can work with both Premiere and Vegas which is an advantage.

I am also getting a nice new notebook on which I might try Premiere Pro to see if it really is the configuration or the program. But at the end, programs that become so system heavy that they crash with too many configurations really are bad programs. A good program works on any system. And at least it should have a good diagnostic system. If Windows crashes, you also get error messages which are not always very helpful, but at least they give you a direction where to look.

When Premiere generates a serious error the program should know which processs or call within the program caused it and display that. I hope this will be implemented in the future. Like I said before, I really like the interface of the program as well as the features. They just need to make it more stable. If I compare Windows XP (at launch) with Windows XP Service Pack 2 it has really come a long way. Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 2 might be one of the best Windows OS'es of all time. I like it so much that I am not even thinking about upgrading to Windows Vista. I hope that other professional applications take example of Microsoft.

They just need to make [Premiere] more stable.

Increased stability would be welcomed, but I'm not holding my breath. Premiere is stable enough for a large installed base of users to work productively, but it's far from perfect and the memory leaks and crashes and other software quality issues can be tedious and frustrating at times. I expect the next release will have more features, but I have no expectation the next release will be more stable than the current one.

Best,
Christopher

Right, back on the topic...

Although I got Premiere 6.5 'free' with my old Pinnacle card yonks ago, I did shell out a fair bit of cash for Premiere Pro 2.0 upgrade and Aspect HD.

...and the flipping thing crashes just because I'm cheeky enough to assume that I should be able to edit a feature film on the thing!

So, I'd be happy to go to Adobe to complain about Premiere if Cineform can give me an assurance that Aspect HD isn't to blame, but Adobe is.

My Support Ticket is 611-3775542, I'm assuming Cineform are busy at the moment, as the ticket hasn't been updated for a few days. Your support is still the best though!

Keep up the good work.

Douglas Lesser Spotted Turner.