Soon, I will be purchasing two of the new canon A1s, and the HV10 to use as a deck, and possible 3rd cam when needed.

I know its not possible to preview HD through firewire like we currently do with an SD camera. NOTE - I'm using FCP 5.1.2.

-- My question is, can I capture and edit my entire project in 24F HD using Final Cut Pro, and then preview my HD project using the firewire camera connected to an SD monitor (the HV10)?

I know its a long-shot, but I figured someone might have tried.

Thanks for the input.

No. And this is because of the format you are shooting, HDV. HDV does not allow previewing of ANY kind via firewire.

HOWEVER, if you get a Matrox MXO (www.matrox.com), you can. not only can you downconvert your HD footage to an SD monitor, you can turn your Apple 23" display into a fully functional HD COLOR CORRECTION monitor.

Sweet box for only $999.

I agree, the MXO looks like a really interesting product and a clever design (it uses the DVI port on your graphics card, and some special drivers to insure that you're getting a color accurate image).

Have you actually used one Shane? If so, does it live up to the promises? I read a very positive review in DV magazine last month.

HOWEVER, if you get a Matrox MXO (www.matrox.com), you can. not only can you downconvert your HD footage to an SD monitor, you can turn your Apple 23" display into a fully functional HD COLOR CORRECTION monitor.

Sweet box for only $999.

We just got a demo of this box at this month's FCPUG meeting. And as Shane says, it converts RGB color space to YUV, allowing you to get a fairly good color corrected signal to your Apple display.

-gb-

(it uses the DVI port on your graphics card, and some special drivers to insure that you're getting a color accurate image).

It has another DVI port trick... embedded audio. Using the RCA jacks on the unit will allow you to feed monitors that will be in sync with the video. If you try to monitor directly out of the Mac, your audio would lead due to latency of processing video out of the MXO.

-gb-

Have you actually used one Shane? If so, does it live up to the promises? I read a very positive review in DV magazine last month.

I wsa skeptical. Just like you I thought there is NO WAY this box can turn a computer display into a color correction HD monitor. Nice claim, but Nuh uh.

Then I saw it. Now I'm a believer.

I worked in a booth at MacWorld for CalDigit, and Wayne Andrews (product manager) from Matrox was in the booth with me, demoing the unit. There, on display, was a $5000 LCD HD color correction from Panasonic, and an Apple 23" display...both being fed by the MXO. And the image on both was identical.

I am getting a unit to review and test on my own. To compare the Apple 23" display and my HD CRT monitor. But I can say that I am convinced that this is the perfect solution for inexpensive monitoring of HD footage.

After seeing the Matrox demo at Macworld and talking with Wayne (I guess you weren't there when I dropped by Shane) I placed my order and received it today.

Seeing an identical image on both a 20" ACD and a Panny 1700 sold me! That's not something you can fake.

Darn it Rich...probably one of my few excursions across the room, or a lunch break.

But yes, Wayne's demo sold me too. If I didn't already own a Kona LH, that is.

Hi, great news for economical color correction. Do you need a special monitor to make the color reproduction accurate or is there a special procedure to calibrate? Different LCD use to look very differently so how is this done?

I calibrate my ACD 23" with an Eye-one. Evidently the MXO will load the LUT from that calibration and use it during the process which leads to more accurate color. Even though hadware calibration isn't mandtory, according to Wayne it makes the MXO's color reproduction better.

Thank goodness I found this thread! Sounds like the answer to all my budget problems! Thank you DVinfo!!

. . .I am getting a unit to review and test on my own. To compare the Apple 23" display and my HD CRT monitor. But I can say that I am convinced that this is the perfect solution for inexpensive monitoring of HD footage.

Besides the color accuracy, how about other factors like motion artifacts, etc. I don't yet own the ACD or MXO to test, but the refresh rate on the ACD is slow according to the specs and I "think" this causes softening or other distortions on camera moves, doesn't it? Does the MXO solve that problem?

When you evaluate the ACD 23" and MXO next to your HD CRT, could you give some feedback about that?

The MXO get's rid of the interlace artifacts when played back to an Apple 23". Motion artifacts, since they are inherent in the video itself are only minimized somewhat (again probably due to the frame blending the MXO does.)

The overall look of the video out of the MXO is still cleaner to me on my 17" video LCD then the ACD when I compare the 2 monitors but I believe that's due to the fact that the video LCD is lower resolution and benefits from the picture being scaled down.

It's noteworthy that the MXO demo at Macworld featured an Apple 20" next to a Panasonic LH1700W and given their similar size screens and fairly similar resolutions it was very hard to see any apparent differences in either color or overall video quality.

Short of a decklink or Kona there isn't really a better way to see your video in full quality / RT then the MXO IMHO.

[QUOTE=Rich Dykmans]The MXO get's rid of the interlace artifacts when played back to an Apple 23". Motion artifacts, since they are inherent in the video itself are only minimized somewhat (again probably due to the frame blending the MXO does.)

I wouldn't want any motion artifacts "inherent in the video" to be minimized. My purpose is the evaulate accurately the video quality so I don't want to disguise any defects. Importantly, I also don't want the monitor or configuration to "add" any artifacts or distortions which are not actually part of the video footage.

In the way that I can evaluate standard dv footage on my NTSC production monitor, I want to create the same "production monitoring" arrangement for hdv without spending enormous $ and an enormous size HD CRT production monitor. I probably have to compromise, but want to at least be aware of where the shortcomings are. Thanks for you input.

Chris, I beleive the point here is that the 23" ACD is not an interlaced monitor, yet one of the features of the MXO box is that it allows you to use your ACD to view your interlaced footage ... these interlacing artefacts that it is minimzing are inherent only when viewing interlaced footage on a non interlaced display. that means what you see on the ACD is a more accurate representation of the true video quality than you would otherwise be able to see, except by outputing to a true HD monitor. basically its a good thing, not a bad thing.
At this point in time, other than buying a true HD capable monitor and an HD I/O card, the MXO is probably your cheapest route to high quality monitoring of HD.

. . . that means what you see on the ACD is a more accurate representation of the true video quality than you would otherwise be able to see, except by outputing to a true HD monitor. basically its a good thing, not a bad thing.
At this point in time, other than buying a true HD capable monitor and an HD I/O card, the MXO is probably your cheapest route to high quality monitoring of HD.

Thanks Andy. I'm also wondering about the effect of the slow refresh rate on the ACD and what it might do to certain moving images despite going through the MXO.

Although much more costly, would you say the Panasonic BT-LH1700W HD/SD LCD monitor is a "true HD capable" monitor? If using the dvi-out of a G5, what piece of added hardware or adapter is needed to connect via the SDI input of the Panasonic? Just trying to compare how much more it might cost to go for "true HD capable".

would you say the Panasonic BT-LH1700W HD/SD LCD monitor is a "true HD capable" monitor? If using the dvi-out of a G5, what piece of added hardware or adapter is needed to connect via the SDI input of the Panasonic? Just trying to compare how much more it might cost to go for "true HD capable".


Yep, the Panasonic is great monitor for the price.
In addition you need to add an HD capable I/O card like those provided by AJA and Blackmagic. The Kona card's from AJA are very highly regarded as is their customer support.
However if you want to use the DVI out of the G5's gfx card then you're still looking at the MXO. It's the MXO magic that routes the YUV through the DVI and thence out the HD/SD SDI on the box. Without it the signal output from the DVI is RGB.

FYI, I have a review of the Matrox MXO on my blog...finally.

www.lfhd.net

I haven't tried it with interlaced footage yet. I'll have to capture some DV footage and see what it looks like.

FYI, I have a review of the Matrox MXO on my blog...finally. . . .
www.lfhd.net.

Read your blog and have a question. That calibrator is for print, isn't it? How do you calibrate for yuv? Or did you just eyeball it using the Sony monitor as a guide?

The Spyder? That calibrates the monitor for photos basically. It does this by balancing the grey scale mainly. Once that is set, then the image from the MXO was spot on. Now, the new version of the software is reputed to have controls to adjust the colors on the monitor. Which is good, because that is something that the current version lacks. It just happened to be right on. At least to my eye.

The Spyder? That calibrates the monitor for photos basically. It does this by balancing the grey scale mainly. Once that is set, then the image from the MXO was spot on. Now, the new version of the software is reputed to have controls to adjust the colors on the monitor. Which is good, because that is something that the current version lacks. It just happened to be right on. At least to my eye.

I guess you mean that you used the adjacent sony monitor as a guide, and adjusted it to match that, right? In other words, you can't really calibrate for video unless you have a true hd crt video calibrated monitor sitting next to the ACD or whatever lcd. If that's the case, it seems the MXO is not really going to solve the problem for anyone who doesn't also own a calibrated hrt.

I guess you mean that you used the adjacent sony monitor as a guide, and adjusted it to match that, right? In other words, you can't really calibrate for video unless you have a true hd crt video calibrated monitor sitting next to the ACD or whatever lcd. If that's the case, it seems the MXO is not really going to solve the problem for anyone who doesn't also own a calibrated hrt.

No...I did NOT use the Sony monitor as a guide, but rather as a COMPARISON. I just let the Spyder do it's thing...it calibrated the monitor. Then, I launched FCP, loaded bars on both monitors...loaded the same image on both monitors...and compared. I made NO adjustments after I had the images up. I couldn't...there were none to adjust. That feature is lacking in the current version. The NEXT version, however, is touted to have these features, allowing you to adjust the colors...and even get you a BLUE ONLY option. In that case, I would then calibrate to bars....just like I do with the Sony CRT. This is all by eyeball...so it takes a trained eye.

The Spyder? That calibrates the monitor for photos basically. It does this by balancing the grey scale mainly. . . .


If you set the greyscale for print, you are looking at a gamma different from video gamma. So I don't get it. Seems this might be fine for photographers and those producing for print, not video.

I'm hindered by not having an ACD to play with or look at settings. So maybe you select a setting so the ACD switches between RGB and YUV preview?

If you set the greyscale for print, you are looking at a gamma different from video gamma. So I don't get it. Seems this might be fine for photographers and those producing for print, not video.

I'm hindered by not having an ACD to play with or look at settings. So maybe you select a setting so the ACD switches between RGB and YUV preview?

First...yes, the monitor calibration sets up the monitor for COMPUTER gamma. What the Matrox MXO does is converts that gamma, rather well, INTO A VIDEO GAMMA. That is what it is designed to do. So if you have it properly calibrated, the MXO can properly convert it. That is the whole reason behind the MXO.

Second...AFAIK, you cannot switch between an RGB and YUV preview.

Will the Kona or BM cards give you the same capability to monitor footage RT and CC.

just curious.. but you can use any lcd that supports hd and has dvi right?? i have a HP2335

Matt, depends if the monitor is 24" and can get 1920x1080 resolution. My Dell and the Apple monitors go to 1920x1200, so there is plenty of space. Anything less and you aren't getting a pixel-for-pixel representation.

I have no experience with that monitor, so I cannot say for sure. But I know the MXO works best with the Apple because the refresh rate is exactly 59.94. The Dell has 60Hz straight up, so there is a little wiggle at the top with a couple scan lines.

worth noting is that FCP6 now natively supports previewing HDV footage over firewire as a downconverted DV stream

(please don't anyone confuse this with what the MXO is doing as is being discussed here ...needless to say, the MXO is a far superior color critical solution for previewing broadcast quality in HD)

worth noting is that FCP6 now natively supports previewing HDV footage over firewire as a downconverted DV stream



Huh? Where is this info? So do you mean edit hdv but feed an SD monitor and do my color correction?

Thanks,
Scott

"Huh? Where is this info? So do you mean edit hdv but feed an SD monitor and do my color correction?"

From the Matrox website:

http://www.matrox.com/video/products/mxo/

Also my blog:

http://lfhd.blogspot.com/2007/03/matrox-mxo-part-2.html

You can feed your SD monitor and color correct in a STANDARD DEF space, because the MXO does downconvert. Or, you can feed an Apple 23" display and color correct in an HD space.

Shane,

My response was to this line...

"worth noting is that FCP6 now natively supports previewing HDV footage over firewire as a downconverted DV stream"

...Not the MXO use. This line sounds to me like you can hook up a firewire camera to your production monitor and FCP6 will output downconverted SD to it so you can color correct your hdv timline based on how it looks in an sd color space. I have not heard this is possible so I wanted to know where that person read this information.

Thanks,
Scott

Shane,

...sounds to me like you can hook up a firewire camera to your production monitor and FCP6 will output downconverted SD to it so you can color correct your hdv timline based on how it looks in an sd color space. I have not heard this is possible so I wanted to know where that person read this information.
Scott

That is the claim by Apple...that you can output HDV as downconverted DV via firewire...so you can MONITOR. And you can color correct for an SD space...right. But if you then output to HDV, or other form of HD, the color won't be right. Even if you make an HD DVD.

FYI.

That is the claim by Apple...that you can output HDV as downconverted DV via firewire...so you can MONITOR. And you can color correct for an SD space...right. But if you then output to HDV, or other form of HD, the color won't be right. Even if you make an HD DVD.

FYI.

Where did you read that claim? The only reference I've found to preview HD downconverted to SD thru firewire requires using the new AJA lo...not really cost effective at $2200.


If you could color correct in SD space....
It'll be close enough...all these older dvds that are being watched on upscaling dvd players were all color corrected for an SD color space and they look fine to pretty much everyone. The HD installed customer base isn't going to be prevalent for years....I don't even personally know anyone, who isn't a videographer, who has bought a high def player yet....hd-dvd or blu-ray...

So color correcting in SD is fine for now...

Cheers,
Scott

Would the MXO work with Apple's color program? I read that Color is picky about what it can output to. Any ideas?

Where did you read that claim?


It's no secret Scott. It's in the "Final Cut Pro 6 New Features" documentation, on page 8:

External Video Monitoring
You can now output to external video interfaces whose settings don’t match those of your sequence. Here are some examples of some of the possibilities:

• DV or HDV sequence output to an SDI signal on a third-party interface
• An uncompressed NTSC or PAL sequence output to a DV FireWire output
• An HDV sequence output to a DV FireWire output

Sequence and output formats must have compatible frame rates. For example, sequences with a frame rate of 60, 30, or 24 fps can be output to a 30 fps device, but not to a 25 or 50 fps device. Also, when an output device does not match your sequence settings, additional real-time processing is required. This means that segments that already require a lot of real-time processing power may need to be rendered to play back.

I'll have to get FCP 6 and COLOR and test that out. But, that won't happen for a bit yet.

Would the MXO work with Apple's color program? I read that Color is picky about what it can output to. Any ideas?

I would "assume" (dangerous word I know) it will as the MXO is coming directly off the video card. I've read that Color won't work on an external monitor using something like an AJA or BM card because those are not GPU accelerated, but the MXO is.

Again, just pure speculation on my part.


-A

Why wouldn't Color work with AJA or BDM cards? How would people view their image on an external monitor? You can't color correct without that ability, so it MUST work with color.

MXO...again, I won't be getting FCP ST2 for a while...so...sorry.

Yup, my bad. Color won't work if your card's default destination is set to your Mac desktop.

I believe this is the thread I misremembered.

http://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_read_thread.cgi?forumid=223&postid=1348&univpostid=1348


-A