Boyd:

Seems to me that the answer to the problem you have is to let the autogain run with limits set at the menu. With autogain on, you can still adjust F-stop and shutter if desired, only the gain will be auto. Have I got that right ?

Not really.

It probably would help to understand that Sony chose the word EXPOSURE because it correctly describes what you are adjusting. In other words, stop thinking in terms of the parts of the camera that are doing the work.

Once you choose your frame-rate -- the shutter-speed is determined: 24p, it will be either 180 or 216 degrees. 60i, it will be 1/60th or 1/30th second. Sure for some crazy FX you might use something else, but its not going to change very often.

Now you have the ND filter which the camera uses to keep the iris from going too small or too large. Ideally, you need to keep the iris larger than f/5.6 to keep detail high. So you've got to use the ND -- no creative choice here. It's optics.

That means you have iris and gain to adjust. Most folks will not apply gain until the iris is fully open. This is theory of E1. Once the iris is open, if you want to increase exposure you must increase gain. No choice about it -- unless you add light. So E1 simply lets you monitor "exposure" and control as needed. You can clearly see what the gain level is and how noisy it is. Nothing is out of your control.

If possible, I prefer to use AES not E1. To use this mode correctly, you set the AGC Limit (I use +12dB or +6dB) and set AT IRIS LIMIT (I use either f/5.6 or f/11.) You must also set the AE Response speed to SLOW.

Now what happens is the camera uses its AE system to yield an optimal exposure. If the light level changes briefly it will be ignored. If the light changes fast -- the camera will slowly and accurately alter the exposure -- just as you would need to do. The AE system will respect the gain and iris limits.

Now what happens when YOU want the exposure to be lighter or darker. Simply tweak the iris dial to get the look you want. Because of the V1's wide lattitude, you will find you do not often NEED to make any correction. But, you may WANT to for creative reasons or because the camera AE system has been fooled. For example, in a Backlite situation the AE will, of course, under-expose. All you do is dial in the correction you want.

Why would you want to directly adjust the F-stop? For maximum picture detail, with a 1/4-inch chip, you want to shoot at f/4. Worst case, f/2.8 to f/5.6. To do so you need to control iris AND gain AND shutter-speed PLUS add/subtract light. If you don't shoot this way,and I very much doubt many of us do, you have no reason to not use E1 or AES. You are just needlessly twiddling dials cause that's what you've always done.

You may think you need to set the F-stop to increase or decrease DOF. Sorry, the DOF is so great that you really have almost no control of it.

Personally I'm not certain about an image that gets progressively noisier in front of my eyes.

The noise is related to gain level. How you adjust gain has nothing to with the amount of noise. So your comment is a bit silly isn't it? Isn't it better to see the gradual increase?

I'm beginning to wonder if the V1 is flying over the heads of many of posters. Folks are so locked into the way they do things, they can't seem to see a new way as offering a better way.

Just my $0,02 on some ergonomics aspects of the two wonderful machines: while the A1 is loaded with more (perhaps even too much) image tweaking possibilities than the V1, it lacks some useful operational aids that the V1 has:

- B&W possible, but only on both the LCD and EVF; with Sony you can set the LCD for color control and the VF for B&W focus control with peaking

- peaking is only white and only has one level on the A1; stupid because when the LCD/EVF are in B&W, red or yellow peaking would be much, much more distinct!

- peaking switches zebra off on A1; pity because due to smaller latitude and the lack of histogram, the zebra should always be on - on the V1 you can have all three aids on all the time (with the great latitude, perhaps an overkill - but nice)

- not many enough of important functions assignable to not large enough number of custom keys; one of them is Magnify: why on earth, it has its own button on the A1!

EDIT on the last one: actually, the Magn function assignable to cutom butons is only changing the way tha dedicated button works - sorry.

I'm beginning to wonder if the V1 is flying over the heads of many of posters. Folks are so locked into the way they do things, they can't seem to see a new way as offering a better way.

Another way of putting it is that the V1 offers many different ways of operating the camera some that don't have equivalents on other cameras in its class. Those that favour a semi automatic shoot to those that favour full manual control are well served. There is nothing missing just a different approach is needed to achieving the same goal.

I am sure we could all sit down a find a situation where a compact camera is lacking in one particular control but I am sure 99% of people will be happy with this camera 99% of the time.

TT

You can add to that most HD documentaries & theme shows (virtually everything on HDNet), nature shows (Discovery HD, National Geographic HD etc.), talk shows such as Leno, Leterman....I could go on. I myself much prefer the look of reality that 60i brings to the screen. To my eyes there's nothing like looking at an HDTV and feeling as if you're looking through a window. Progressive just doesn't do that for me. Each to his own. :)

Actually I'm pretty sure National Geographic does 30P. They shoot on Varicam and deliver 30P for US. I know someone who works there. My guess is the Discovery is the same. Just because it is delivered in 1080i doesn't mean it was shot in 1080i. You can show a progressive scan image on an interlaced format (just not the other way around) To me 60i looks too live. But that's an aesthetic opinion of which there are many.

I think it's not necessarily progressive that you don't like, but less temporal detail of a 30P image. 60P will replace 60i at some point. Which will give the same window effect, but not have the problems that interlaced introduces.

I too have the PD150 and the FX1. I would also describe my take of the V1 after having used it for a few hours as ok but not great.

By the way B&H has a special price on the V1U from the Mac World Conference in San Francisco last week. If you mention Promotion Code #MW07251 you get the V1U for $3999.95. The price is good through January 23, 2007


I have a PD 150 and an FX1 and a PDX 10 and now a V1.. Yes, the V1, is not as good in Low light as the 150, but what camera is? That was the best low light camera ever made. Period! The image from the V1 is simply stunning. To me that means more than learning a new way to work with the camera (which really isn't all that different then the other Sony Cams). The new ways and options are a huge benefit and if you don't like them, you can go back to the old ways, most everything is selectable.

The image quality of this camera is the best of any that I own. I'll still use the FX1 in low light situations and where I need a wider angle of view (Until I can get the wide angle attachment). My PDX 10 is now used as a feeder deck for SD DV. The 150 is used for SD low light situations.

I'm still waiting for one of these companies to custom build "My perfect camera" but they all have comprimises. The best thing to do is try the models out you are interested in and see what suits you best. None will be the perfect match....trust me! Make a checklist with plusses and minuses and the one with the most checks wins.

The V1 is fully three stops less sensitive than the PD150 and the V1 audio section is considerably lower quality than the PD150, which had a marginal audio section to begin with. Otherwise, the V1 is an amazing piece of work and produces a great picture (if you give it enough light.)John

Yes we will remember this era as "light challenged HD". All small chip HD cameras (even larger chip) have light sensitivity problems. Which is why I opted to go with the cheaper V1U over the more expensive but still light challenged XDCAM HD. In a few years we'll have more sensitive cameras.

As far as audio, I'd like to know what specifically you are talking about that is bad. I haven't found any major issues with the audio section. Are you saying the preamps are noisy? Lack of adequate gain? The other thing to remember is that it is recording MP3 audio as opposed to the PD150 uncompressed. MP3 compression will take the edge off a bit.

My complaints about the audio are that Auto-gain sucks, but I'd never use it on any camera. Using the menu to change things can be a little time consuming. And I wish they had put a limiter in. But none of these things are major issues that can't be dealt with.

"i" has a *lot* of life left. A lot of life. It's not going anywhere soon. Psf will be more likely to take its place, as the two can work well together.
But either way, with all the broadcast support in place for a while to come, "I" broadcasts will be with us. Web is but a *very* small destination for watching content, and until televisions and computers converge more conveniently, they'll be separate.
I wish that wasn't so, but it is...
Acquiring in 'i' might not have such a future left, however...

I couldn't agree with you more Douglas. Broadcasting isn't going anywhere for quite some time and the bandwidth required for 1080p broadcasts is such that you won't see that any time soon either.

Guys, once again this particular thread has required heavy pruning. All posts debating the merits of 720p vs 1080i vs 1080p, using framerates of 24p, 30p, 25p, 50i, and 60i may be found in the General HD category.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84281

The noise is related to gain level. How you adjust gain has nothing to with the amount of noise. So your comment is a bit silly isn't it? Isn't it better to see the gradual increase?

Oh yes! How daft of me ;-D ...

Seriously, I don't think my comment was silly. I've never used variable gain 'cause I usually don't work in a situation that requires me to shoot without first being able to plan. It wasn't that I was doubting the V1... I was simply questioning what sort of an image you'd get as you went into some progressively darker location, and whether it would just look disconcerting to the viewer that the image got progressively noiser as the camera pushed up the gain to mitigate the disappearing light.

I'm beginning to wonder if the V1 is flying over the heads of many of posters. Folks are so locked into the way they do things, they can't seem to see a new way as offering a better way.

I'm not some gnarled camera op "locked" into any way of doing things and incapable of accepting that technology has moved on. (Tube cameras were good enough for my grandfather and they're good enough for me...). I love things to be convenient and to make things easier. I'm a fairly frequent user of AE on my FX1.

Seriously But the V1 is not some magic genie. There's nothing new about this camera. ATW, AGC, AE, AF are not suddenly flawless. The V1's CMOS sensors provides a slightly wider dynamic range than CCD cameras IN THIS PRICE RANGE, and it's got a reasonably "inteligent" set of automatic and semi-automatic controls.

But then almost any camcorder can do a reasonable job of getting "nice" shots if you're shooting fairly bland cinematography. But if you want to do something artistic you want to use the manual controls as your tools. And if you want to be consistent then you want to use manual controls to ensure the timbre of your image remains the same.

When it comes down to it the V1 is a fairly nice prosumer camcorder. It's got a nice image, but it's missing physical controls. And no amount of AUTO is going to make up for that.

Auto controls: I've tried them and they offer no better than any other auto control on other cameras. If you are framing the talent and the background is changing in light intensity then the camera drifts to compensate. How quickly it does it depends on your settings.

These controls cannot be relied upon to provide consistent exposure. They are quick and dirty and of very limited use just like other controls on other cameras. So what if the V1 allows the user to adjust the AE setting it still doesn't prevent the AE changing with the background over time. Consider an interview in a moving car and you soon see the exposure drift all over the place when what is required is a consistent exposure of the interviewee's face.

Take the auto controls with a large pinch of salt. Other controls like Exposure 1 are worth their weight in gold.

TT

Everyone: what is it about this camera that seems to spark so much emotional response? Please resist the urge to turn a technical discussion into something personal which reflects on the abilities of the individuals involved.

It would be a shame to have to close yet another V1 thread, but that's where this is headed...

Henry Ford had notoriety for saying "You can have it in any color you want, as long as it's black."

I'm glad they put manual and auto controls on these cams. If JVC put auto focus on the HD100, maybe I would have considered that one.

If you only shoot in manual, do you return your settings to a starting point after each shoot? If you don't, you'll have to do it before your next. Will you have time? Not if the tornado is bearing down on you!

I use manual controls, but they are not a panacea. Sure, auto focus might not be accurate, but manual focus gets out of focus too.

I don't expect that having the dial set to the little green box is going to get my tornado shots on the 10:00 o'clock news, but I would like a date with Helen Hunt.

I've tried them and they offer no better than any other auto control on other cameras. If you are framing the talent and the background is changing in light intensity then the camera drifts to compensate. How quickly it does it depends on your settings.

These controls cannot be relied upon to provide consistent exposure. They are quick and dirty and of very limited use just like other controls on other cameras. So what if the V1 allows the user to adjust the AE setting it still doesn't prevent the AE changing with the background over time. Consider an interview in a moving car and you soon see the exposure drift all over the place when what is required is a consistent exposure of the interviewee's face.

Okay, so no miracle next generation of super-inteligent auto controls.

In your opinion, Tony, does it provide a challenge not having tactile controls for all the manual settings that one might want to adjust, or is it perfectly workable with E1 controling gain, MF and push auto, and White Balance (if you need to change it) on the wheel at the back?

If you only shoot in manual, do you return your settings to a starting point after each shoot? If you don't, you'll have to do it before your next. Will you have time? Not if the tornado is bearing down on you!

I take your point, and I would say that perhaps storm chasing and ENG are two areas where you may not have time to really properly think about your camera settings...

However! How long does it take to set the ND, spin the exposure wheel and push focus? I can see how AE could help in storm chasing, but personally I wouldn't want AE to make stupid decisions that meant I lost some of the drama in the image. And I certainly wouldn't want AF pulsing all over the shop.

The point to my questions is whether users who are used to a full array of tactile physical manual controls, feel a bit like they're driving with one hand when they start using the V1.

Okay, so no miracle next generation of super-inteligent auto controls.

In your opinion, Tony, does it provide a challenge not having tactile controls for all the manual settings that one might want to adjust, or is it perfectly workable with E1 controling gain, MF and push auto, and White Balance (if you need to change it) on the wheel at the back?

In my opinion Alex there is no challenge to operating the V1. I have not found its operation wanting in any respect.

If there are people out there that really feel they have to have gain and WB switches then I'm sure the Xh-A1 will be for them. I just don't subscribe to the fact that they are as necessary as some people would like others to believe.

TT

The V1 is perectly capable of doing better than you can do because it is both faster and more accurate -- if you know how to use it. And, when not to use auto!

Moreover, this debate was settled years ago in the SLR debates on AF. It's silly that video prosumers need to feel they are pros by not using ALL the tools availble to them. Obviously they care more about FEELING they have control than they do about actually bringing home perfect video.

I have to disagree with this point. I have found that the auto-focus on the V1 does not work well. Rather than focusing on the closest object, it seems to focus on the most distant object, or the object with the most contrasty detail in it (which tends not to be human faces). I tried to focus on my 7-month old with her face filling up 3/4 of the screen and the camera insisted on focusing on the carpet behind her. The focus systems on SLR cameras are much more refined and capable. Someday autofocus might work well on video cameras, but not today.

As far as exposure is concerned. I find that exposing properly is always a judgement call. While the V1 might have decent latitude, it's not great latitude. So you always have to decide, how much of the image do I want to blow out at the top end to get definition in the dark parts. It is always dependent on lighting conditions. I'd rather make that call than have the camera do it for me.

While I'd prefer better manual controls on the V1. I have not found it impossible to work with. In fact, over time I'm sure I'll be as quick with it as I have been with other cameras, it's just a matter of getting used to it. The bottom line is that the V1 can get the job done with a kick ass picture.

Hey Steve,
I'm with you on this. I got my first video cameras (2 PD170s) in early 2004 and tried the full manual thing off and on for a while. I found that when shooting events in changing environments, in many cases, The PD70 made corrections to exposure, and white balance faster and better than I could. I did find the auto focus a little weak in certain situations. I use auto if possible but in many cases I have to go manual to aviod hunting, especially with the wide angle adapter and/or in low light. WB in auto always seems to work good. I learned to set combinations of manual and auto settings for exposure so that gain would dial in automatically when needed but I had control over the iris. The only real problem using this method is when shooting events on stage, especially with dark backgrounds, it always seems to overexpose. I have this problem with my Nikon D200 in matrix mode as well and guess they just over compensates for all the dark area.

Regardless, it sounds as if the V1U is better than the PD170 in the auto department which suits me because I stay busy enough trying to compose and frame the action. I'll use auto over manual if they work well but give me the ability to take control quickly when needed.

The noise is related to gain level. How you adjust gain has nothing to with the amount of noise. So your comment is a bit silly isn't it? Isn't it better to see the gradual increase?

I'm beginning to wonder if the V1 is flying over the heads of many of posters. Folks are so locked into the way they do things, they can't seem to see a new way as offering a better way.

Auto controls: I've tried them and they offer no better than any other auto control on other cameras. If you are framing the talent and the background is changing in light intensity then the camera drifts to compensate. How quickly it does it depends on your settings.

Consider an interview in a moving car and you soon see the exposure drift all over the place when what is required is a consistent exposure of the interviewee's face.

TT

I think you have missed several points:

1) Of course, if the lighting changes the exposure shifts slowly chnges -- it doesn't drift -- to the new correct exposure. That's exactly what it should do. It's exactly what YOU would do. Otherwise the exposure will be wrong. Why do you think pro lenses have a nice iris control? So you can making run-and-gun exposure changes. You are way too far into the "film look" fad to understand that most V1's will be sold for ENG and documentary work. We are judged on getting the shot -- not on maintaining a stable but wrong exposure.

2) You'll note that I have ALWAYS said you must know when you should not use AE. In this case you simply switch to E1.

The point is that the interview in a moving car is a rare ENG shot. Most of the time one is shooting nothing so unusual.

I have to disagree with this point. I have found that the auto-focus on the V1 does not work well. Rather than focusing on the closest object, it seems to focus on the most distant object, or the object with the most contrasty detail in it (which tends not to be human faces). I tried to focus on my 7-month old with her face filling up 3/4 of the screen and the camera insisted on focusing on the carpet behind her. The focus systems on SLR cameras are much more refined and capable. Someday autofocus might work well on video cameras, but not today.

As far as exposure is concerned. I find that exposing properly is always a judgement call. While the V1 might have decent latitude, it's not great latitude. So you always have to decide, how much of the image do I want to blow out at the top end to get definition in the dark parts. It is always dependent on lighting conditions. I'd rather make that call than have the camera do it for me.

1) I'm not sure how you got this idea from what I posted. In E1 you do make the adjustment. In AES, the camera gets you within a stop of the correct exposure -- then YOU adjust it from there.

2) You simply didn't use AF correctly so no wonder it didn't work for you. With an SLR one frames the subject in the center and presses the shutter-button half-way to lock exposure and focus -- then you reframe. But, I see many people who have no idea that an SLR must be used this way!

You have to understand two things about the V1's AF system.

a) It has "hystresis." This means it will hold focus on what it has in focus. This is why you can walk in front of the V1 and the AF will ignore you and stay locked on the subject.

So all you need to do is briefly frame the subject before you start shooting and let the AF get focus. Exactly what you would do with a manual lens. Once locked on the subject, it will keep the subject in focus until the subject leaves the frame.

I can do snap pans between a close and far objects and back. When the pan come to a stop -- the new object is already in perfect focus. That's because when the old subject leaves the frame it starts focsing on the new subject.

b) Let's assume for some reason the subject isn't in focus -- your situation -- or goes out of focus for some reason. Did you know if you have set the correct menu mode enabled, even in AF -- you can touch-up the focus manually. So you have the best of both worlds.

By the way -- the reason the AF system can work so well -- is that DOF is so huge that until you zoom about 50%-75% into Tele, EVERYTHING is inherently in focus. :)

And that's my point. Fly-by-Wire. The computer does 90% of the work very, very fast. Your job is not CONTROL, but MONITOR and TOUCH-UP. You can monitor focus by eye AND by Peaking. You can monitor exposure by eye AND by Histogram/Zebra.

But you have got to use the camera correctly -- like any tool. Remember, you use ABS totally differently than non-ABS brakes. When used correctly, the computer almost always does better than the human.

I think you have missed several points:

You are way too far into the "film look" fad to understand that most V1's will be sold for ENG and documentary work. We are judged on getting the shot -- not on maintaining a stable but wrong exposure.



Agree about the 'film look' nonsense.

But I have to say a good news shooter should not just get the shot, he or she should also get the shot right. And the camera should be there to help him get that. That's difference between a citizen shooter with a modern quality dv camera and a real pro.

Nowadays so many money shots come from citizen shooters armed with good cameras who are in the right place at the right time. Maybe then V1 is perfect for them?

But as a pro give me the full controls so I can get the shot just right.

It's an interesting argument for interesting times Steve.

I'm debating whether to get the XH-A1 or V1 and am leaning towards the XH-A1 simply because it is wider angle, very handy I think.

As far as I can work out, from the baffling confusion of previous posts, any other differences between the two cameras are debatable. Except for the fact that they look different and the XH-A1 is a bit bigger and a bit heavier.

As to comparing footage from the two cameras it's nigh on impossible as different people have used all sorts of different camera settings and made all kinds of post processing changes. Some people have recorded in 25p, some in 50i, some in 24p, some in 60i, some have converted from interlaced to progressive using software etc etc...

Stuart,

I was in the same boat as you: my choice was Sony A1E, Sony V1E or Canon A1.

In the end, I made a spreadsheet, listed everything that was important to me, gave each feature a weighting to show its relative importance to me, and the formula told me to get the V1. I hope I didn't forget to carry a 1 somewhere!

It was very close between the V1 and the Canon A1, with lots of things the Sony was very marginally better at, and lots of things the Canon was very marginally better at (from my point of view). Low light doesn't matter to me, for example. In the end, it came down to compatibility with my existing high capacity batteries and a Silver Service warranty, along with a slightly tighter zoom (at the loss of some wide angle). And the lens cap with integrated doors!

In my opinion (and for my purposes), the V1 isn't better than the A1... it's just different to the A1.

Oh Mike! You've confused me now, I quite fancy the special lens cap! Hee hee!

I think you're right that any differences are minor and it will all come out in the wash anyway.

I've decided I'll get the XH-A1, if I can scrape the dough together, purely for the wider angle lens as my no budget films are often made in tight confines.

I bit the bullet and bought the Canon XH A1. It's a beautifully made camera and very well thought out. It's a huge improvement over my old Panasonic DVX100. A suprisingly quiet zoom motor for one thing. And the focus and zoom presets are going to come in very useful. Thanks for the advice Mike, I'm very happy with my purchase!

So, did you ever make a decision on a Camera Paul. See what you got started! Both Cameras are incredible and are the best prosumer cameras ever available. The rich colors and detail of the footage is tremendous and breathtaking to say the least, look back at all of your old DV footage on a HD TV. sad huh
Both cameras have adjustable profiles so if you don't like the picture tweek it, I can't imagine it getting much better, it just takes time to learn the controls so you can quickly get what you want, they are both vary capable....
I chose a V1U because of its smaller size, I also like the HDMI out and the exposure histogram, but I would have been very happy with a A1.