Do you have a clause in your contract stating that if for whatever reason you aren't able to make it the day of the wedding, the client is entitled to a full refund?

I had never done this because I have back up videographers, but a client asked me if I would edit their contract and add this in. There is travel involved here, and I think that may be her concern, but I am not sure how to word this sort of thing. Any suggestions/advice is greatly appreciated!

Do you mean because they refuse to accept a substitute?

If for some reason, you didn't show up, wouldn't you refund their money anyway? So I don't see a problem with the clause.

But there is no way you would send a substitute, and ALSO refund their money. They would have to understand that as well.

Do you mean because they refuse to accept a substitute?

If for some reason, you didn't show up, wouldn't you refund their money anyway? So I don't see a problem with the clause.

But there is no way you would send a substitute, and ALSO refund their money. They would have to understand that as well.

Yes, if I didn't show up, I would refund the money, but I don't have that in my contract and I'm not sure how to word it. She is okay if I sent a substitute. I guess what I'm saying is I always just assumed that was understood, and she wants it in writing.

Mine says basically:

*** Productions takes utmost care with respect to the production, editing, duplication and delivery of its video products and services. However, in the unlikely event *** Productions fails to comply with the terms of this agreement due to any event or act outside of the control of *** Productions, liability is limited to refund of any deposits.

You could put some kind of version of that in....

hmm.. the issue here is that if she invests in u, and u break ur leg, and a replacement is not sent, what good will the money do her if her day is not archived because she chose YOU...?
either replace the shooter or offer a refund AND compensation (if its ur fault that u didnt show up... )

"In the event that (your name here) is unable to perform during the entire agreed upon time period, either due to travel, equipment failure or other unforeseen difficulty, (your name here) liability is limited to a) providing The Client with compensation for time lacking at the rate of XXX(pick a fair number here based on the price of the package ) Dollars per hour based on a Ten Hour (10) shooting day or b) a refund in full of all deposit monies paid by The Client dependant on the point of failure during the event."

Meaning, if something were to happen PRIOR to the event starting and no coverage is provided then all money paid would be refunded however say you were going from the ceremony site to the reception site and were involved in an auto accident. Then you would only be liable for the time you weren't there-the reception. You've already shot the ceremony and I assume it would be edited so you're not responsilbe for refunding for that portion.

So assume the package was (for the sake of the math) $1000 and it would normally be a ten hour day. The hourly rate would be $100 per hour BUT some of that has to be billed off to editing. Again for the math say you billed editing at $50 per hour-so you would be responsible for $100 per hour of the missed time because you're not going to edit it since you don't have it. Or you could say you're hourly rate is $25 for shooting and $75 for editing. Again you have to determine whats fair. It can get a bit dicey sometimes so it's really up to you to find the right number.
HTHs
Don

Meaning, if something were to happen PRIOR to the event starting and no coverage is provided then all money paid would be refunded however say you were going from the ceremony site to the reception site and were involved in an auto accident. Then you would only be liable for the time you weren't there-the reception. You've already shot the ceremony and I assume it would be edited so you're not responsilbe for refunding for that portion.



In fairness to the client, should you do something that prevents you from continuing coverage for the rest of the contract, I think I would want to edit what I could and offer a full refund- if it was obviously your fault. In Don's example of an auto accident, I agree with what he was saying. I wouldn't agree with that point however, if you forgot all of your equipment at the photo-session and you were therefore not able to fulfill your end of the contract due to operator error and yet you still wanted to bill them.

To get back to Dawn's original question, I think having something in your contract covering cancellation will provide much more protection for you rather than the client. It could be argued that having a photographer or videographer not show up is much more valuable than the number on the contract as there is no option for a reshoot.

either replace the shooter or offer a refund AND compensation (if its ur fault that u didnt show up... )A "penalty clause"? Now, why the heck would you impose that on yourself when it isn't necessary?

Contracts are a one sided agreement to protect the person or business that's providing the contract. If your contract is not on your side, perhaps you should thing about re-writing it. My contract limits my liability to the contract price and all parties agree all disputes except for non-payment of monies due shall be arbitrated in the county that my business is based in. There is nothing wrong with editing a contract. Any concerns by both parties chould be included in the contract.

If "you" are not able to make it the day of the wedding and you put in the contract that they are entitled to a full refund if "you" don't make it, no matter who shows up, other than "you", they are entitled to a full refund. I believe that you work for your business and you're business should be responsible for videotaping, not you. Anyone who shows up is working for your business so you can't be held liable for not showing up personally.
If your contract is worded this way, it is protecting you.
Your business is liable only if no one shows up.

As far as offering additional compensation, who's working for who?
The bride is my employer. If I don't complete my work task based on the contractual agreement, I am not entitled to the money but I am not about to pay my boss because of incomplete work. My loss of salary is enough compensation.

Before you crucify me for not being more symphetic toward the bride, how many brides do you turn down resulting in no wedding video because they can't afford your rates?
Allen W

I agree with Allen.. one thng i do though, is that i have 4 backup shooters.. so even if i have a clause that says i will give them a refund plus 10% compo (if nothing is filmed they get 10% on top as compo) have needed to do this as for one, ive never not attended a job, and 2, ive got 4 people to fall back on.

"Before you crucify me for not being more symphetic toward the bride, how many brides do you turn down resulting in no wedding video because they can't afford your rates?"

Sympathetic? Dude, we're in business here.. we are here to make money.. make a living, pay our bills and have a life.. theres no room for sympathy here.. when a bride spends 4grand on a dress which she will wear ONCE.. then box never to be seen again.. then to scoff at $2500 asking price to see said dress in full view and in motion forever.. it makes me wonder where their priorities really are....
When they spend a grand on a cake which wil lbe shat out the next day.. then shudder when we offer an SDE projection for $500... which do u think would be more memorable on the day?
But no..

Many peopl think my prices are too high, however i advertise where most people are on a tight budget, so ive had to reshuffle adew things to fit that advertising tasrget market. However im chaing my advertising route, and hopefully by asking higher prices, i dont have to work as hard, being that one job can counter 2 jobs..

Sympathetic? Dude, we're in business here.. we are here to make money.. make a living, pay our bills and have a life.. theres no room for sympathy here..Then why commit your liability to a refund plus an additional 10%? I don't understand. Do you need that carrot dangling on a stick for motivation? "Something" must have made you adopt this parctice... be it sympathy or not. Do you use this policy for marketing purpsoses or is it just a blurb in your agreement?

Heaven forbid I can't make a wedding, heck, I've only missed one rehearsal, (and boy did I pay for that one.) I guess if I couldn't make it to a wedding, I'd send the great 'PJ' from Down UNDA!. And boy would that plane ticket be expensive.

Back to the issue at hand, my contract more or less says if I don't either show, catastrophee to my gear etc, that they get a refund. It's probably one of the stickyer points where I live because apparently there are vendors around here that cancel on people to a noticable degree. So when I go over that point of my contract, I just tell my clients that I have never missed a wedding.

If I made any alucid remarks, I'm recovering from the flu and boy is this a lot of fun. :}

Thanks guys for all your help. I did add a clause, similar to one above, simply stating that if I don't show... they get their money back, and if something happens in between the time I am supposed to be filming, like a car accident, they get a prorated amount back, depending on how much time is missed.

The clients were very satisfied with that and I intend to leave it in my contract now.

Contracts are a one sided agreement to protect the person or business that's providing the contract. If your contract is not on your side, perhaps you should thing about re-writing it. My contract limits my liability to the contract price and all parties agree all disputes except for non-payment of monies due shall be arbitrated in the county that my business is based in. There is nothing wrong with editing a contract. Any concerns by both parties chould be included in the contract.

...

Sorry Allen but I have to disagree. Contracts are not one-sided but rather are for the mutual protection of all parties. Your clients shouldn't have to come see you with their lawyer at their side cross-checking your contract in order to be accorded fair and equitable treatment in their dealings with you. I'm tired of living in a business climate where it's every man for himself and to hell with any one else and anything you can get away with that benefits the business is okay. IMHO, the contract you offer in the normal course of business should protect both you AND your client and they should not have to negotiate in order to be treated fairly and with respect. We need to get back to the Golden Rule where you would not do to your client what you would not have them fo to you, not because the law or the courts or a contract requires it but rather just because that's the way decent human beings live together.

""Then why commit your liability to a refund plus an additional 10%? I don't understand.""

Because put it this way, if i say ""ïf PJ doesnt attend, a full refund is given"", as mentioned, if i need to use a backup, i am still legally screwed coz the backup is NOT me.. .. BUT.. if i say that ""yup, weve got 4 backups, PLUS myself (of course.. )"" and in worst case scenario NOONE can come to film the day, then as compensation, they get their refund (obviously) but for the fact that nothing was filmed due to it being our fault, theyre given 10% to cover for the ""stress" and or "anxiety" or whatever else might be used within a court to leach any compo claim.
Id rather have a 200-300 insurance backup and/or loss as opposed to the potential of being taken to court to be sued for thousands over frivolous and ""personal Losses"" and moreso, potential loss ""of memories" for the client.

Ive never had to fall back on this, but when u consider that theyre investing in you vs a dozen or so others .. and then you cant deliver, what will you do when a refund is not good enough? What will you do if they take you to court, and they use the ""i didnt even have time to look for a replacement videographer"" or the ""i dont even have any friend who could have taped it for us, so we have NOTHING"" ""I cant even remember our vows it went so fast... thats why we hired him""

U might be on your deathbed, but they WONT care (Last year in fact i WAS on my deathbed and some of my clients didnt give a toss... and this was when i thought of adding this, as some people just didnt believe i was in hospital when asking why i had someone else shoot their day and why some edits took longer than usual..
youd be surprised what lengths people go to to score a discount or refund.

Ive never needed to fall back on this, but im glad its there as once its signed, if anything does happen, at least i know i wont be losing too much... if anything... considering ive got another 4 shooters..

Sorry Allen but I have to disagree. Contracts are not one-sided but rather are for the mutual protection of all parties. Your clients shouldn't have to come see you with their lawyer at their side cross-checking your contract in order to be accorded fair and equitable treatment in their dealings with you. I'm tired of living in a business climate where it's every man for himself and to hell with any one else and anything you can get away that benfits the business with is okay. IMHO, the contract you offer in the normal course of business should protect both you AND your client and they should not have to negotiate in order to be treated fairly and with respect. We need to get back to the Golden Rule where you would not do to your client what you would not have them fo to you, not because the law or the courts or a contract requires it but rather just because that's the way decent human beings live together.

I also agree with this.. to a point where the business must be protected irrespective of the circumstances. From technical to human to environmental, the bases must be covered considering the incredible potential for ongoing problems

My contract is 3 parts.. the first is the package/invoice, the second is the info they provide me and any specific directions etc etc (ie the info they provide me) and the 3rd part is the info i provide them.. from go to O

Its pretty much 50/50 with reasonable latitude to allow movement and tweaks. Being human and weddings are probably the biggest human event we deal with (save for childbirth) giving a client THIS MUCH latitude isnt what is usually seen down here in Aus, but im yet to have an issue. Most people put up with contract becuse they want the work, but they know to get THESE results, we must follow THESE procedures..99.9% are happy to sign without any tweaks

I think you have two classes of cases here. First is the handling of requests for a specific videographer. Second is events that are out of control of vendor for whatever reason. To me, the "you" referred to in the discussion is the business, not an individual videographer.

As for the provision of a specific videographer, perhaps the contract should state that vendor shall make every effort to provide the videographer requested by customer, however if due to circumstances out of vendor's control vendor may provide a substitute who vendor deems equal or better in technical and creative skill to requested videographer.

Also, some type of clause dealing with so called "acts of god" which prevent vendor from rendering service.

Whatever you do, run it by your attorney.

Sorry Allen but I have to disagree. Contracts are not one-sided but rather are for the mutual protection of all parties.... I'm tired of living in a business climate where it's every man for himself and to hell with any one else and anything you can get away with that benefits the business is okay..

Steve,
Have you ever carefully read your insurance agreements (contracts), credit card contracts, contractor, mortgage, auto leasing, etc. contracts?
Can you honestly say they are not skewed in favor of the contractor?
You may be tired of living in a business climate where it's every man for himself but that doesn't change the way business is conducted.

The contract isn't signed by both parties until they are both satisfied but look closely. You get what you want but the contractor takes steps to protect him/her self. If there is disagreement and you have to go to court, as a business owner you're going to lean on your contract to protect you. Otherwise you may have a great deal to loose. Even when there is agreement due to arbitration, someone comes out a looser.

An example, if your bride is not happy with you, what keeps her from suing you for everything that you're worth including your house, car, and business, because of her "pain and suffering" caused by you. That lovely bride could turn into a bridezilla and what's going to protect you from her wrath? We would all like the world to be an ideal place to live, work and have fun in and no one sues each other but that's not reality.

Now, taking in what you said, I would like to see a professional business contract that is really for the mutual protection of both parties and not slanted at all. Do you have an example of one?
Allen W

An example, if your bride is not happy with you, what keeps her from suing you for everything that you're worth including your house, car, and business, because of her "pain and suffering" caused by you. That lovely bride could turn into a bridezilla and what's going to protect you from her wrath? We would all like the world to be an ideal place to live, work and have fun in and no one sues each other but that's not reality.

((Ive SEEN this happen afew times in the past with business's being forced to file bankruptcy and start afresh under new names and new registries etc etc... insured or not, if your taken to tribunal, 99% of the time, if youre not contracted, the ruling will go in favour of the client. the biggest reason is that your providing a service with NO contract..Here in Aus DFT doesnt look too lightly on this..

If however your in breach of your own contract, the essence of "pain and suffering" can be argued as being a dash for cash. WIth a contract, the lient knows what to expct, and if something happens for you to not have the ability to fulfil that contractual obligation, then the client must be advised AND AGREE, preferably by signing, or by a response within email, but verbal acceptance is also passable.
Having a 10% compo refund clause covers you irrespective of the Pain and suffering or what have you, as THEY AGREED to accepting this 10% of their package as compo as oppposed to taking u to court and suing u for 10-100 times that ammount.. yes 100 times that amount..
I have one client who i train (i train video pro's here in Syd) and about 4 years ago, he was taken to court for being late to the ceremony (no parking allocated and the bride demanded he stay for thr horse and cart) SO he rocks on in at the ceremony abotu 10 minutes late... As he missed dad giving daughter away, that was seen as a "significant" event and considering she had photographic evidence of ""the emotions which should have been caught but werent" and the incessant tears and waterworks in court.. not to mention ""he ruined our day" remarks being thrown here and there... the judge made a ruling for a little over 20k (which was the cost of her wedding) this ruling was made to "set a precedent" for other professionals to take more care in their work and responsibilites.. and becuase her day ""was ruined" by ""this one enterprise"" it should ""then be taken into consideration that the enterprise in question be responsible for the fees pertaining to the event, as a fair and just means of compensation"
I wasnt there, but when i was shown the transcripts, it completely blew me away..
They put in for an appeal, but its rare to get this kind of thing overturned.. in fact its stil ongoing.. funny thing is, the bride only wanted a full refund (plus her finsihed edit free of course.. which she got 3 weeks later) plus her ""ädditional"" costs which were required to pay her photog to get as many pictures and reprints to cover the ""unfilmed"" element... but after the 20k was thrown at her.. shes been persung it now for 4 years...
Like i said, youd be surprised what people are willing to do.))

""Now, taking in what you said, I would like to see a professional business contract that is really for the mutual protection of both parties and not slanted at all. Do you have an example of one?""

No... i dont. my contract offers allocations to clients to offer direction, but in the end, the contract is realy there to protect the business, irrespective of teh event, package or circumstances surrounding any element

ive seen enough business' fall on their faces and id rather lose a potential client then go down that road

U might be on your deathbed, but they WONT care (Last year in fact i WAS on my deathbed and some of my clients didnt give a toss...

If anything goes wrong for the bride, she'll love you as much as you would love the doctor who removed the wrong external organ by mistake.

Several years ago I was called to fill in for a videographer who suffered a heart attack and collapsed in a chuch at the end of the wedding ceremony and had to be rushed to the hospital.
I arrived in time to tape the reception so there was no loss for the bride and groom. The whole time I was there, I had to put up with the grumbling of the B&G about the incident. They were upset because the videographer had the audacity to have a heart attack at their wedding. No kind words or sympathy were ever expressed by them. Just lots of negative complaints.So much for the Golden Rule.
Allen W

If anything goes wrong for the bride, she'll love you as much as you would love the doctor who removed the wrong external organ by mistake.

Several years ago I was called to fill in for a videographer who suffered a heart attack and collapsed in a chuch at the end of the wedding ceremony and had to be rushed to the hospital.
I arrived in time to tape the reception so there was no loss for the bride and groom. The whole time I was there, I had to put up with the grumbling of the B&G about the incident. They were upset because the videographer had the audacity to have a heart attack at their wedding. No kind words or sympathy were ever expressed by them. Just lots of negative complaints.So much for the Golden Rule.
Allen W
My point exactly... fair enough its their day, but in May last year, i had a seizure.. where i noticed it coming along and the left half of my body gave out.. i literally went white, stopped breathing and was pretty much paralyzed.. this was at the after ceremony portraits, so it really wasnt all that significant. A guest who just happened ot be a nurse sat me down and coaxed me back to reality... the bride and groom didnt take any notice (and then again, i wouldnt expect them to) but the reality of the matter is that irrespective of what may happen, the bride and groom are usualy wearing blinders and are tunnelvisioned by the events of teh day.

The point of all this, is that there is one constant That constant being the fact that we are human and things will happen beyond our control.
Irrespective of business responsibilities, those responsibilities can only be handle by a human. With that comes our constant, So despite offering as good a service as one can provide, we must still keep that human element within those business dealings. If we do not, we will lose site of whats really important.

Theres more to what we do than making a buck...

I agree with Allen.. one thng i do though, is that i have 4 backup shooters.. so even if i have a clause that says i will give them a refund plus 10% compo (if nothing is filmed they get 10% on top as compo)

Why give them an extra 10%? Now you are paying them! I would only refund the deposit amount for something like this.

check the rest of the thread mate...

"Having a 10% compo refund clause covers you irrespective of the Pain and suffering or what have you, as THEY AGREED to accepting this 10% of their package as compo as oppposed to taking u to court and suing u for 10-100 times that ammount.. "


what i do is called forward thinking.. trust me it pays off to cover yourself...