I'd like to know what others folks in the Mac world are using for a workflow for using the V1U. With NAB more than three months away and Apple unlikely to update FCP before then, surely I'm not the only one who's trying to figure out a workable arranegent for professionally using V1 progressive footage sooner rather than later?

I'll start the ball rolling: I plan to grab a copy of Vegas to enable me to extract progressive (and pulldown in 24P) from the interlaced stream (as far as I can see, Connect HD will do this but doesn't render anything that can be directly used by FCP). I have Windows XP running on Boot Camp for this purpose. Now that Parallels is also able to access the Boot Camp partition, I'll try to see whether this will enable capture within XP within OSX.

Any suggestions about the best format to export progressive footage from Vegas for import into FCP?

I'm trying to work with FCP and the Sony 24p from the V1 too. I found this in a "first look" at the camera by Adam Wilt. It's not a perfect "how to", but he's been successful with it by the sound of it:

"I had no problem capturing the V1's 24p as 60i using Final Cut Pro 5.0.4, converting the clip to DVCPRO HD, and then extracting the original 24 frames per second using Cinema Tools. (Cinema Tools refuses to work on raw HDV clips, hence the conversion to DVCPRO HD. I also used Apple Intermediate Codec and uncompressed formats successfully.) The recovered 24p clip showed perfectly even timing between frames with no temporal syncopation: it's really 24p. The shutter speed defaults to 1/48 second, 1/24, and 1/40 (but not 1/32), and higher and lower speeds can be dialed in."

Doesn't going to DVCPRO HD make the footage 720? Everytime I try to go to it the footage is then 1280x720. I hate the idea of losing resolution.

A step by step "how to" in FCP from someone would be very useful to ALOT of people.

"I had no problem capturing the V1's 24p as 60i using Final Cut Pro 5.0.4, converting the clip to DVCPRO HD, and then extracting the original 24 frames per second using Cinema Tools. (Cinema Tools refuses to work on raw HDV clips, hence the conversion to DVCPRO HD. I also used Apple Intermediate Codec and uncompressed formats successfully.) The recovered 24p clip showed perfectly even timing between frames with no temporal syncopation: it's really 24p. The shutter speed defaults to 1/48 second, 1/24, and 1/40 (but not 1/32), and higher and lower speeds can be dialed in."

Doesn't going to DVCPRO HD make the footage 720? Everytime I try to go to it the footage is then 1280x720. I hate the idea of losing resolution.

A step by step "how to" in FCP from someone would be very useful to ALOT of people.

Thanks for the Cinema Tools tip, Paul; does it really remove the 3:2 pulldown and extract 24P from the 60i stream?

I get the strong impression from various posts is that most everyone with an interest with progressive on the V1 on this board are PC-based, for which there are current solutions for progressive capture/editing - it's turning out to be, in the short term at least, *not* the ideal cam for the many Mac-based folks interested in progressive film production.

Greg, it was much if not more, the same with the DVX when it came out. This is why both cams have offered streams in 60i mode as well. I'm quite sure we'll see FCP supporting this very soon, if not, third party tools are, and will moreso become available in the near future.

Greg, it was much if not more, the same with the DVX when it came out. This is why both cams have offered streams in 60i mode as well. I'm quite sure we'll see FCP supporting this very soon, if not, third party tools are, and will moreso become available in the near future.

Douglas, points taken about the DVX, but unless you know something about FCP that the rest of us don't (quite possible given your connections) I think it's reasonable to assume that we won't see support for V1 progressive video until FCP6 is announced in April. In the meantime, I'm still looking for a simplified Mac/FCP-based workflow for 24P projects on the V1U before then.

I just shot and cut a little two minute piece so that I could shakedown the camera and the workflow with Final Cut Pro.

Worked pretty nicely.

Shoot 24p Scan A mode. Capture in Final Cut as Apple Intermediate Codec 1080i60. Open your capture scratch folder and, one clip at a time, right click the clip and open with cinema tools. Do not move the playhead!! choose reverse telecine, be sure conform to says 23.98 and near the bottom of the screen choose _CD_. After the footage has been pulled down you should see no interlaced frames of any kind. Create a new AIC 1080i60 sequence in FCP, but change its frame rate to 23.98 in sequence settings (you'll see the field dominance switch to none).

Note it only works this easily if you shoot 24p scan A mode so that the cadence resets every time you pause the camera. if you shoot in regular 24p, you'll have to find the A frame for each clip you pull down, and that is a pain with AIC.

You can't use HDV native because cinema tools needs all I frames. AIC looks exactly like the HDV, it just takes up several times the disc space and you'll lose the timecode. I did this with the current versions of FCP & CT. I'm not sure that it would work in older versions.

here is the test short I did at 1/2 resolution...

RIGHT CLICK AND DOWNLOAD THE LINKED FILE:

http://www.sharing.ramjetfilms.com/Rocky_Peak_540p.mov

(no FX or color correction of any kind...)

Of course, when FCP offically supports the V1U it will be easier, but this workflow will work for me until then.

Brian,

This is just what I've been looking for! A step by step how to! I can't wait to try it out. It'll be fine to use AIC for smaller projects, such as 30 second commercials. It takes up more HD space, but if this works as well as you (and Adam Wilt) say, then I'm cool with the extra steps.

Just need to remember to shoot in the Scan A mode...

Brian,

I ran some quick tests last night and this does indeed work like a charm! Thanks for the workflow tip.

Brian, did you capture from a deck, or directly from the camera? I'm having trouble with my capture settings, as it's not letting me edit the HDV-Apple Intermediate Codec preset, unless this is unnecessary. I also can't create a Generic Capture Template, since it looks like it wants to work with a deck.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Alphonse

I get the strong impression from various posts is that most everyone with an interest with progressive on the V1 on this board are PC-based, for which there are current solutions for progressive capture/editing - it's turning out to be, in the short term at least, *not* the ideal cam for the many Mac-based folks interested in progressive film production.

I'm with you on this. In fact FCP still doesn't fully support JVC's range of HDV. They seem unable to get a general MPEG-2 editing solution out the door and so resort to HDV patches as time permits.

Sony claimed 24p support would come from Apple when the V1 shipped. JVC made the same claim last year at NAB. Apple has screwed them both.

So glad to hear Premiere is coming back. With the CineForm codec it will be a killer NLE. Then I can dump all Apple software from my Mac, except OS X.

Alphonse, I captured both from the cam & from an M10U.

Just choose AIC 1080i60. Ignore it if it says it doesn't see your camera. Make sure your tape is at the beginning and open log and capture. You have very little control with AIC (can't log or anything).

Steve,

Are you implying Premiere is coming back to MAC? I have not heard this news. That indeed would be nice to have another option! I switched from Premiere and PC editing to a MAC with FCP a few years ago, I miss Premiere in some ways. Sounds like dealing with 24p is going to be one of them. Is this going to happen soon?

Apple and Adobe have both quietly suggested in public spaces, that Premiere will be on the Mac at some reasonably coming date. However, no official announcement has been made (that I'm aware of), so until such an announcement comes, it is a rumor, and not a fact.

However, no official announcement has been made (that I'm aware of), so until such an announcement comes, it is a rumor, and not a fact.

"Our customers wanted all the components in Adobe Production Studio to be available on both the Macintosh and Windows platforms," said John Loiacono, senior vice president of Creative Solutions Business Unit at Adobe.

"We listened and believe that an innovative new cross-platform video suite, anchored by powerhouse releases of Adobe Photoshop, Adobe *Premiere Pro* and Adobe After Effects, will really shake up the industry."

`Adobe Production Studio for Macintosh will be available for purchase in mid-2007 as a Universal Binary for Intel-based Macs, the company said.'

Adobe understands that we need cross-platform products and we need the integration of all our creative tools. Despite the understandable loyalty of Apple owners to FCP, IMHO Adobe is the only company in the industry to truly be focused on media creation and to have the funds and in-house expertise to build best of breed media products.

As much as I love Apple hardware and OS X -- once you travel outside the USA you realize that MOST people use PC's and Windows. Now if Adobe were to release Adobe Production Studio for Linux -- that would be major cool.

Great, nice to see there was a press release. I wasn't aware of it.

I think I got it Brian. It wasn't letting me choose an aspect ratio or frame rate, but the default seemed to capture fine, and cinema tools was able to reverse telecine properly.

Thanks for the work around!

Alphonse

Still looking for a Mac-based workflow that I can use for editing progressive from the V1U, which doesn't involve down-rezing... any ideas?

Greg,

Read Brians workflow in post #6 of this thread.. It doesn't involve down-rezing in any way. It works but you can't batch capture.

Greg,

Read Brians workflow in post #6 of this thread.. It doesn't involve down-rezing in any way. It works but you can't batch capture.

Thanks Paul, I didn't read it through - sounds like a real fix, but potentially a lot of work on a long piece with lots of clips. I'll try it out on a music shoot I'm doing this weekend. thanks again.

[QUOTE=Brian Williams]I just shot and cut a little two minute piece so that I could shakedown the camera and the workflow with Final Cut Pro.

Worked pretty nicely.

Shoot 24p Scan A mode. Capture in Final Cut as Apple Intermediate Codec 1080i60. Open your capture scratch folder and, one clip at a time, right click the clip and open with cinema tools. Do not move the playhead!! choose reverse telecine, be sure conform to says 23.98 and near the bottom of the screen choose _CD_. After the footage has been pulled down you should see no interlaced frames of any kind. Create a new AIC 1080i60 sequence in FCP, but change its frame rate to 23.98 in sequence settings (you'll see the field dominance switch to none).

Our V1U came in last night... Took it out of the box and set up.

Shot on a Sony V1U set for 24pA. Manual settings for everything. Brought the video into FCP using the AIC. Reversed Telecined with CinemaTools and then rendered out using the H264 Codec so people not running FCP could check this out.

The footage is just some traffic that was passing by when we set the unit up.

ftp://demo:demo@ftp.gotfootage.com

User: demo
Pass: demo

I will leave this up for a week or so if anyone wants to check it out.

[QUOTE=Brian Williams]
The footage is just some traffic that was passing by when we set the unit up.

ftp://demo:demo@ftp.gotfootage.com

User: demo
Pass: demo


Wasn't able to log into your site, but I agree, it does seem to work. I shot a music video of friend's band at the weekend in 24P "A" mode, and brought it iin via MPEG stream conversion from an M2T file to AIC. The strange thing is that even though the M2T files didn't represent self-contained clips (I captured from various places within a continuous film segment), the conversion to 24P seemed to go fine in Cinema tools. Maybe the camera or software automatically captures from the "A" frame. This is currently all black magic stuff to me, but I'd like to understand further what's actually happening. I'll post a clip when I get the chance.

Process works perfectly thanks for the info.

Has anyone been able to get 30p to work in FCP?

I wrote this for VASST, detailing how to remove the pulldown without using the AIC:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87189

heath

With many, many thanks to the contributions of others on this topic, I have been developing a workflow for capturing 24pA on a V1U and editing on a 1080-24p timeline in FCP. I've been pulling out what little hair is left, wrestling with the reverse telecine (or 24p Advanced pulldown removal), but I think I have found my problem:

My V1U seems to be recording standard pulldown (2:3) even when set to 24p Advanced (24pA) mode!

Here is what I have worked out for capture:

1) I can capture via firewire as 1080i HDV, preserving timecode.
2) I can capture to the Apple intermediate codec. This loses timecode, so that recapture (e.g., for an uncompressed on-line) isn't easy.
3) Or I can capture from the decklink Intensity via HDMI into the DVCPro HD codec (need a RAID to capture uncompressed) - again, no timecode.

4) I can transcode (using Export via QuickTime Conversion) from HDV into a more robust codec - AIC, DVCPro HD, the beta CineForm HD, Avid's DNxHD, even XDCam. All these work, but I haven't looked at issues of dynamic range, vis any conversion to/from RGB...

5) I get stuck on removing the pulldown. The clips were all shot with the V1U set to 24pA, I've triple checked. But FCP doesn't recognize them as advanced pulldown (2:3:3:2), and Cinema Tools reverse telecine dialog doesn't allow selecting the 2:3:3:2 cadence. BUT, in messing around I have found that my clips, shot at 24pA seem to be 24p! Stepping through the frames, the cadence is normal-normal-blended frames-blended frames-normal (or 2:3:2:3 in terms of fields). Using Cinema Tools to remove that standard pulldown yields a perfect 24p clip!

What gives? Busted camera? Did I miss a setting?

Any more advice on workflow here? I know, we all hope FCP will become V1U aware real soon now, and that the CineForm codec for Apple will be able to capture soon. Why can't FCP capture video via HDMI but use firewire for deck control and timecode?

Ricardo

My V1U seems to be recording standard pulldown (2:3) even when set to 24p Advanced (24pA) mode!

It IS recording 2-3 recording. Curious where you read it wasn't.

Whoa - I am not sure where I picked up the notion that the V1's 24pA mode used a 2:3:3:2 cadence. But now that I review things, it all makes sense. For anyone not following this - 24pA uses the same 2:3 cadence as 24p, but resets with every start/stop of the camera, thus easing batch conversion.

So my workflow seems good:

1) Acquire 24pA -> HDV (capturing timecode)
2) Transcode to another codec (AIC vs CineForm vs DNxHD vs ?)
3) Remove pulldown with Cinema Tools
4) Edit at 24p
5) (Optionally re-capture for uncompressed on-line)

Any comments on intermediate codec to use, or the means of transcoding?

Thanks again,

Ricardo

P.S. I just bought a copy of Steve`s eBook (as a show of thanks for participating in forums like this).

Transcode to another codec (AIC vs CineForm vs DNxHD vs .

I'm hope at NAB Cineform releases a MacTel version of Connect HD. This will provide HDV capture, 2-3 removal, plus conversion to the CineForm codec. Their codec is a QT codec which means it works in FCP and Media 100. (Yes, it is alive and well.) It will also work with Premiere Pro when it arrives on the MacTel platform.

This provides a path for 720p and 1080i HDV shooters who have been totally dependent on Apple. Of course, if Apple comes through -- this provides a second solution.

Hope you find my book useful.

Whoa - I am not sure where I picked up the notion that the V1's 24pA mode used a 2:3:3:2 cadence.

So what I'm hearing is that 24A on the V1 is not 24 Advanced?

So what I'm hearing is that 24A on the V1 is not 24 Advanced?

No, what you're hearing is that the 24pA in the Sony camcorder isn't the same as the 24pA in the DVX100.

24p-straight pulldown
24A-Cadence always starts with a new 3:2 set of frames every time you start/stop recording.
GOP format doesn't benefit from the 24pA that you are likely thinking of from the Panny.

Thanks Douglas. I think Sony should have considered another designation so as to avoid confusion between 24pA and 24p Advanced.

Thanks Douglas. I think Sony should have considered another designation so as to avoid confusion between 24pA and 24p Advanced.

Its actually 24A- there's no P in it even though it is progressive.

Thanks! I've been in the 60i world for many years and am still tying to figure out the 24fps world. More technical stuff to cram into my brain. The good news is that there's a great deal of old stuff that can leak out with out being missed.