Hey everyone,

I know most of the specs aren't in yet, but I for one am happy to hear about the mic-in and headphone-out on the HDR-HC7.

2 lux?? That's amazing.

http://news.sel.sony.com/documents/consumer/digital_imaging/camcorders/high_definition/HDR-HC7_Specs.pdf
http://news.sel.sony.com/documents/consumer/digital_imaging/camcorders/high_definition/HDR-HC5_Specs.pdf

Cinematic mode which offers 24 fps film-like look to recordings. Did the HC1 or HC3 have this? Does Sony's AVCHD camcorders have this?

Also there's a 'Tele Macro' feature which should allow for shallower DOF from the sounds of the description. I wonder what this is all about and how it is any different than what current cameras are capable of.

The HC7 & UX7 also look to use a new 2280K 1/2.9" sensor. The HC5 uses a 1/3" 1430K sensor which I assume is or is similar to what has been used in the SR1 and HC3.

• Sensor: HC1 = 1/3 CMOS, HC7 = 1/2.9 Clearvid CMOS
• Gross Pixels: HC1 = 2,969,000, HC7 = 3,200,000 (+18%)
• 16:9 Video: HC1 = 1983K, HC3 = 2280K (+15%)
• 4:3 Video: HC1 = 1486K, HC7 = 1710K (+15%)
• IS: HC1 = Digital, HC7 = Optical
• LCD: HC1 = 2.7"/123K, HC7 = 2.7"/211K
• EVF: HC1 = 252K, HC7 = 123K
• Shutter: HC1 = 1/4 - 1/10000, HC7 = 1/2 - 1/500
• Zoom: Both 10x
• Stills: HC1 = 3 Megapixel, HC7 = 4.6 Megapixel
• Low Light sensitivity: HC1 = 7 lux, HC7 = 2 lux


The HC1 has a Zoom/Focus Ring while the HC7 has a dial for Focus/Exp/Shuttr/AE Shift/WB Shift.

The HC7 provides "x.v. color", Smooth Slow Record and HDMI output.

The HC7 is not compelling enough for me to part with my HC1 (I like to stick with a camcorder for more than the seemingly standard 4 months that many people seem to follow anyway) and besides, I don't have anything that will let me view xvYCC color. But if I was buying today in this price range...

Thats the best lux rating from an hd camera I have heard of. With mic input seems like it would make a great stationary camera or maybe even primary camera for weddings or live events. If it only had the focus ring. I wonder if the push to focus button will work on a lanc controller. Could a pro version be be right around the corner?

Some notables...
- manual shutter speed adjustment
- focal lengths and shutter speed rates are numerically given
- no aperture control (no surprise)
- manual adjustment of audio levels via the touch screen
- running histogram while shooting
- 'guide frame' checkerboard lines for framing
- external buttons kept to a minimum
- extremely deep battery slot

Is the HC7 bottom-loading? Can't tell from the Sony site.

top-loading i'm pretty certain Dave, like the HC3.

Mild con on the 2lux rating thing.

- Sony seemed to omit to mention (in some specs, others explain it..) that the 2lux rating is only achievable when the cam drops the shutter speed by 1 stop to 1/30th sec. There's a mode called "Auto Slow Shutter" mode, and in this mode the camera will drop the shutter speed from 1/60th to 1/30th in low light, and thats how it gets the 2lux rating.

Quote from one North-American sony site :
"Minimum Illumination: 2lux (Auto Slow Shutter ON, 1/30 Shutter Speed) "

So although that is a handy mode, all previous Sony lux ratings are as far as i know quoted at default shutter of 1/60th sec (NTSC-country models) or 1/50th sec (PAL-country models).

Canon did something a little similar in the specs for XH-A1 i think where they quoted min.lux as 0.4lux, but that is at 1/3rd second i think..

Even despite this slight issue, it will be interesting to see how the low-light performance measures up in real-world comparisons with existing models.

I'm really confused about the recording format. Is it HDV or some form of AVCHD? If AVCHD, is at the max rate? What did Sony mean by "the highest
quality high definition video possible on a MiniDV cassette"?

David

I'm really confused about the recording format. Is it HDV or some form of AVCHD? If AVCHD, is at the max rate? What did Sony mean by "the highest
quality high definition video possible on a MiniDV cassette"?

David

I *think* there are UCX5/7 and HC5/7

the UC* ones are DVD and AVCHD
the HC* ones are MiniDV and HDV

but there also seem to be some typos in the data sheets that were posted.

• Sensor: HC1 = 1/3 CMOS, HC7 = 1/2.9 Clearvid CMOS
• Gross Pixels: HC1 = 2,969,000, HC7 = 3,200,000 (+18%)
• 16:9 Video: HC1 = 1983K, HC7 = 2280K (+15%)
• 4:3 Video: HC1 = 1486K, HC7 = 1710K (+15%)
• IS: HC1 = Digital, HC7 = Optical
• LCD: HC1 = 2.7"/123K, HC7 = 2.7"/211K
• EVF: HC1 = 252K, HC7 = 123K
• Shutter: HC1 = 1/4 - 1/10000, HC7 = 1/2 - 1/500
• Zoom: Both 10x
• Stills: HC1 = 3 Megapixel, HC7 = 4.6 Megapixel
• Low Light sensitivity: HC1 = 7 lux, HC7 = 2 lux


The HC1 has a Zoom/Focus Ring while the HC7 has a dial for Focus/Exp/Shuttr/AE Shift/WB Shift.

The HC7 provides "x.v. color", Smooth Slow Record and HDMI output.

The HC7 is not compelling enough for me to part with my HC1 (I like to stick with a camcorder for more than the seemingly standard 4 months that many people seem to follow anyway) and besides, I don't have anything that will let me view xvYCC color. But if I was buying today in this price range...100% agree with you, espacially with this 'unfair' 2 lux marketing strategy: this main advantage of the HC7 disapeared now.

Another noticeable difference: the HC1 uses a traditional Bayer color filter for which there're 2 green pixels for 1 red and 1 blue pixels --so in HDV 16:9, there're 495k effective red pixels and 495k effective blue pixels-- against a Clearvid sensor on the HC7 for which there're 6 green pixels for 1 red and 1 blue, giving only 285K effective red pixels and 285K effective blue pixels (-41% on the red/blue color areas).

If you film boats in a port or your familly swimming in the see (picture mainly blue) or a concert lighted with orange/red spots (often the case because orange/red is a less tiring light for the performers on the scene), I'm not sure that the Clearvid CMOS of the HC7 will beat the classic CMOS of the old HC1, despite the greater total number of effective pixels announced for this new HC7...

The higher number of green pixels on the Clearvid CMOS sensor permits only to achieve better low lux levels; maybe not 2 lux --that's possible only at a slow shutter speed of 1/30--, but maybe 4 or 5 lux at a normal shutter speed (to be compared with the 7 lux of the HC1).

In conclusion, in one hand the new HC5 is only a new version of the HC3 --we can only hope that the new main feature will be a lower price!--, and in the other hand the new HC7 is really a step forward compared to the HC3, BUT, with the actual information, it is too close in feature to the 2 years old HC1 to consider to sale a HC1 for a HC7.

With a higher number of effective Clearvid pixels (BTW: with a OIS why so few effective pixels compared to a EIS camcorder like the HC5 that uses extra pixels for the stabilization system?), with a 3.5" LCD screen and with a 252Kp EVF, yes, I will sale my HC1...

With a higher number of effective Clearvid pixels (BTW: with a OIS why so few effective pixels compared to a EIS camcorder like the HC5 that uses extra pixels for the stabilization system?)

Because the sensor is 4:3 and it's cropped to 16:9 resulting in the dropoff in effective pixels. The same with hc3 and hc1.

Because the sensor is 4:3 and it's cropped to 16:9 resulting in the dropoff in effective pixels. The same with hc3 and hc1.
Yes, I know that, but my remark was not there.
A EIS system (like on the HC3 and the HC1) uses 'extra' pixels to permit to the target 16:9 picture to move on the sensor to compensate the movements.
A OIS system (like on the HC7) uses the optics to compensate the movements and no 'extra' pixels are lost.

So on the HC7, I was hoping more effective pixels in 16:9. Because 3200K is a big number for a mono-Cmos...

But I made my maths exercises, and the figures given by Sony are coherent (and so my question gets its answer):

On a HC5, pixels gross: 2100K (4:3 Cmos)
Video actual: 1430K (16:9)
Still actual: 1490K (16:9), so 1490-1430=60K pixels are used by the EIS to have margins to compensate the potential movements.

On a HC7, pixels gross: 3200K (4:3 Cmos)
Video actual: 2280K (16:9)
Still actual: 2280K (16:9), no difference because the OIS doesn't required 'extra' pixels.

Now 2100/1490=1.41 and 3200/2280=1.40. So the ratios between gross and effective (considering the full effective area in 16:9) are quite the same in both cases: I was hoping more effective pixels from 3200K gross, but no... 2280K is coherent.
Sorry, if I was a little boring for some ones with all of these calculations...

OK, I know that's a little impolite to quote an own post, but i would like to add a positive remark to that:
Another noticeable difference: the HC1 uses a traditional Bayer color filter for which there're 2 green pixels for 1 red and 1 blue pixels --so in HDV 16:9, there're 495k effective red pixels and 495k effective blue pixels-- against a Clearvid sensor on the HC7 for which there're 6 green pixels for 1 red and 1 blue, giving only 285K effective red pixels and 285K effective blue pixels (-41% on the red/blue color areas).Compared to the HC5 (and ton the HC3 too), 285K pixels for the red and blue colors, that's 60% more.
So, because the sensor has quite the same size and the optics is quite the same on the HC5 and on the HC7, we can already guess that the performances in low light will be quite the same between the HC5 and the HC7 (the same quantity of light is delivered and analysed), but we can guess too that the colors will be better on the HC7.

One thing we need are some standard tests. For digitial still cameras, sites such as dpreview.com, dcresource.com, and imaging-resource.com use the same set with the same lighting for cameras, even when the tests aren't on the same day. The last site also has a convenient side-by-side image display between cameras.

That would be great here. As I'm sure others can say better, the picture is an interplay of the lens, sensor, demosaicing and interpolation algorithms, and gain and noise reduction processing that the specs alone don't show a clear direction. Note, I disagree with some in that I believe the specs do show some direction in the results for some of the more expensive HD cameras.

The industry has standard tests, and has had a standard in testing for many years.
What you're asking about is a standard subjective test, which is also good for comparison, but it requires a business model that just doesn't apply here for purposes of revenue. The sites you mention all have significant revenue from sponsors and sales, and therefore can afford to block out an area that sits idle when they're not shooting. Much harder to do in this particular scenario.

I wonder if the "Cinematic Mode" is more of a Cineframe24 style type pull down or if it is more like the 24fps implemented on the V1U?

As mentioned in other threads, the Cinematic mode is somewhat like the Cineframe24, although not the same, and nothing at all like the V1U with it's true 24p mode.

Does going from 1/60 to 1/30 double the lux rating? Will you loose 1/2 your resolution? My hc1 looks much better in 1/30 for low light, I knew the 2 lux had to be a marketing gimic. That would make it about 4 lux in 1/60 then right? Guess we'll just have to see the real world tests at 1/60th.

Does going from 1/60 to 1/30 double the lux rating? Will you loose 1/2 your resolution? My hc1 looks much better in 1/30 for low light, I knew the 2 lux had to be a marketing gimic. That would make it about 4 lux in 1/60 then right? Guess we'll just have to see the real world tests at 1/60th.HC7 will absolutely be considerably better than HC1 in low light situ's at same shutter-speed (ie.. low light).

1/30th etc is quite usable in most situations and i think Sony has done well to implement a mode to automatically drop shutter to this level as often people (users) just wont have the wherewithawl to know that dropping the shutter in on-the-edge situ's will help them enourmously. (subejct to obvious camera-shake and subject movement issues etc)

Bottom line are these any better than the HC3? PQ wise??

What about the sound recording on the HC7? I thought I read it would have a hot shoe, extra plug for a mic and headset. What is the sound quailty on these cameras? Could you stick a good mic on the HC7 and would it compare to Sony A1U or close. I'm wondering if the video might be better.

I'm thinking save $1,000 bucks get the HC7 a stick a good mic on it.

It is very close to the A1, but not all the great features. The audio does allow for external, so with a Beachtek and great mic, you'll have great audio.

It is very close to the A1, but not all the great features. The audio does allow for external, so with a Beachtek and great mic, you'll have great audio.


Thanks Spot. Buy something like the HC7 add a good mic and a Beachtek or get the A1U that has that already. ( I think the mic is ok on the A1U).

I guess I'll wait and see what the price on the HC7 will be when it is released or a month after it is.

DSE, have you done the jump with the HC-7 yet? I am wondering how it is handling POV/Extreme use. With the audio in, this makes it very interesting.

I'm looking for a good mic. I know this isn't the HC7, but probably close. But using a mic like this looks like overkill!! Can anyone recommend a good, but smaller mic for a small camcorder like the HC7.

I want somthing that can be used for podcast and other web based video.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/zimvg/videomic_gs120_left.jpg

I'm using the Rode and like it a lot. I "guerilla'd" a blimp for it to use outside cause the stock foam filter still let too much wind noise through.

However, the Rode doesn't plug into the computerdue to the way it's wired. I ended up getting a Samson QU1 for voice over work. Seems fine to me.

How would you guys be mounting the Rode Videomic onto the Sony AIS, out of curiosity?

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I'm trying to decide whether to wait for the HDR-HC7 or buy a very low hours Panasonic DVC-30 for $1200 (or a PD170 for around $2K). My main application is recording music instructional videos and live traditional music in pub settings. I'm very intrigued by the low light capabilities claimed for the HC7. HDV is not my primary requirement, but having a smaller camera with excellent low light would I think be more attractive than the larger DVC30, assuming the low light capabilities are close. Any suggestions?

How would you guys be mounting the Rode Videomic onto the Sony AIS, out of curiosity?

This was suggested to me for this quandry

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=133276&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

If you're very intrigued by the low light capabilities claimed for the HC7, it would suggest that low light performance is high on your priority list? If so, then the PD170 is king of the hill, and unlikely to be surplanted by a camcorder that has a pixel density 4x greater and pixels that are getting on for a quarter of the size.

The Panasonic DVC with its much smaller chips is also not in the running, and dropping the shutter speed to 1/30th to claw back lux levels is sorta cheating in my view. What are PAL users supposed to do - drop to 1/25th? That really does become obvious on screen.

But whereas the HC7 is a 16:9 camera right out of the box, the DVC and PD are really only 4:3 shooters. This may be fine for your instructional videos but wwill be a lot less good for any serious filmmaking ideas you may have in the future.

tom.

Tom,
What you say as a whole is very much true, but you're also discounting the technological advancements of the DSP and pixel management.
The HC7 is very impressive, and while it's not as clean as a PD150, there is no point in looking backwards, IMO. No HD camcorder with small chips will ever be as clean as that cam was. That said, +9dB of gain on the HC7 or most any other Sony camcorder is ridiculously more clean than equal amounts of gain applied to the DV signal in a PD.
DSP has come a long, long way in the past 2-3 years, whether we're discussing Panasonic, Sony, Canon, or JVC.
I had the opportunity to work with the HC7 for nearly 2 weeks as a reviewer, and was exceptionally impressed with the bang for buck, and image in low light as compared to most other HD camcorders in the sub 5K range.

Quite right DSE. I've been forced into a corner and had to shoot an entire wedding service at +18dB of gain up on the Z1. Scared me to death as I was doing it as I shuddered if asked to up the PD's gain beyond +6dB, but all turned out well on the Z1's timeline. I had to bump the colour saturation a smidgen, that's all.

As you say, DSP has come a long, long way.

tom.

Douglas,

I see from this thread you have been playing with the HC7, a camera I am currently considering. From some of your other posts, I know you also have some experience with the Canon HV10. Other cameras I am also thinking of buying include the upcoming Canon HV20, and possibly the recently announced (at CES) JVC Everio GZHD7, or maybe some of the soon to be released AVCHD models from Sony and Panasonic.

Since my background is mainly audio, I want good audio (at least the ability to connect external mics). I also am very interested in low light, since most of my video is wildlife, often shot in dim forest lighting. I wonder if you have a sense of which of these cameras might be best for me. I am planning two trips, one to CA later this month, and one to NC in April, and would prefer to buy sooner than later. But if one of the soon to be released cameras is incredibly better than what is available now, I'd like your perspective on that. I appreciate that you can't know all the variables and it's too early to judge many of the camcorders on the verge of being sold, but since you have lots of experience with these cameras, I'd appreciate your perspective.

Although I have looked into the prosumer models (the upper limit of my budget) I am leaning toward the smaller consumer models because I generally carry a lot of audio and still photo gear, and there is a limit to how much I want to carry on a typical fieldwork day as a single person production unit. Thanks.

Ruth

How would you guys be mounting the Rode Videomic onto the Sony AIS, out of curiosity?You can either use a bracket that screws into the tripod socket like this one :

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=133276&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

or you can use an adaptor like the excellent Jeff DeMaagd AIS-to-coldshoe adaptor :

http://www.dm-accessories.com/AIS-FLAT.php

either of these will allow mounting of Videomic to the cam.

Got my HC7 a couple of days ago.... don't know how.... Sony Style still says shipping on Feb 19th..... guess I ordered early and was lucky.

What an awesome camera for the price. I also own a Z1U. My wife doesn't like the Z1U (too many knobs and switches and too heavy).

I am very impressed with this tiny little camera. The still pictures seem to be about the same exact quality as my sony 6MP still camera, but it's no Nikon! Video in low light I think less than the Z1U, but then compare prices and specs. Gotta tell you, for taking videos and pictures of the kids, vacations, etc the size and portability definitely out weigh (no pun intended) carrying around the Z1U and a D70!

Still experimenting, but am having a ton of fun giving my 4-year old permission to jump all over the pillows on furniture and dumping toys all over the floor to test the 240fps Smooth Slow Record. Really cool watching the output!

Best regards

Hi Stacy,

You're the first person I've found who has an HC7, looking forward to anything you can tell us! I'm particularly interested in the low light capability. Any chance you might be able to post some short sample clips?

Cheers and thanks,

Michael

And how's the low light when you're in the 240 fps mode, Stacy? I imagine the camera needs to open the aperture by 3 whole stops, or go into +18dB of gain-up mode.

tom.

DSE, I think you missed my post. Did you ever get to make that sky dive with the HC7? How did it workout in extreme sports ops?

TIA

George, the HC7 performed very well under opening shock and high speeds. It's a great little camera, no doubt. It shifts exposure very quickly and without a bloom between exposure settings.

I’m usually the type of person that will use the manual focusing ring more so than auto especially when I’m using an HC1 or a Z1u but since the HC7 doesn’t have a focusing ring around the lens, how is the auto focusing compared to either the Z1u or the HC1. I do complain about the HC20 not having a focusing ring around the lens but at least I cannot complain about the way it may handle auto focus because the HV10 does it extremely well and the HV20 should be even better.

Thanks DSE! Glad to hear it. Looks like it is the helmet cam for HDV then. With all the other stuff, I can use it for all the other site shots. With the 3 second high-speed, it will be killer for adding super-slow jumps. Add the Beachtek, headphones, and shotgun for other material. What a sweet package for small form and mobility.

Bear in mind that the super slow mo is reduced quality, so you'll want to take that into consideration. However, I'm also looking forward to trying some super slo mo, even if it only ends up on youtube.

Just Got the HC7 instock at B&H, but we haven't put it on display yet.

Didn't get to much time to play with it, but it feels great in the hand, and on the screen it looks similar to the FX7.


-Kris G


EDIT: They just pulled it out of our system. I don't know why.

Does the HC7 have black stretch or free run time code features? I'd like to use it as a B cam for my Z1u, but also take it on vacations.

Thanks.

Please explain X.V. Color, can it be viewed on any HD TV, and will it mix with Sony FX1 in editing in Vegas 7?
Thanks
John

It’s only viewable on future TVs from Sony, Samsung and others that supports Deep Color. The TVs basically have to be HDMI 1.3 complaint. You would also need a category 2 HDMI plug to receive the full colors. Because the PS3 is HDMI 1.3 complaint, you can put your HC7 footage on a Blu-Ray disc and still get all that extra colors if you have the proper TV.

The only other High Definition units besides the PS3 that supports Deep Color is the Toshiba HD-XA1 HD-DVD player that is already out and the Samsung BD-P1200 Blu-Ray player that is almost out.

Here is a thread I provided a while back that talks about the first Sony TVs to use x.v.Color.
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=83526

Thanks Paul
I think I have a better understanding of xv color.
Will HC7 also play HDV on a regular HD TV (Sony SXRD), but not show the
Deep Color?
Also will the HC7 play a HDV tape recorded on the FX1?
Or are you saying they are two competely different formats?
Thanks
John