I did some research after hearing about the new Nikon D40 camera (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25420), and I saw that some reviews loved it, but said the Canon Rebel XT (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=11154) is better. Both are pretty close, with the edge going to the Rebel. Because the XT has been out a while, the price at B&H is now $599 for the camera and lens. The D40 is going for $559.

In about 2-3 months, I want to buy an SLR, but I'm more entry-level. I want to take more professional pictures, as I feel my little Canon point-and-shoot is a little too, well, consumer-ish (no offense).

I guess, to sum it up, it's like using a 1 ccd minidv camera vs. a nice DVX100a or b to shoot stuff.

So, what do you guys think of the camera choices?

Thanks,

Heath

I'm in the Nikon camp largely because when I started, I liked the D70 better than the Canon Rebel. Overall, the product offerings by both companies are incredibly similar, though each company has its specializations. Just flip a coin, but whatever you do, get at least one good wide aperture (f/1.4) , fixed focal-length lens , a shoe-mounted flash and don't keep the camera in automatic mode. Otherwise, you just end up with a Point&Shoot that is harder to carry. If a zoom lens doesn't do more than 3x zoom, that is a good thing.

I noticed the Rebel has a CMOS sensor vs. the Nikon's CCD, which may or may not explain why the Nikon gets noisey in darker shots.

heath

DPreview is a good place to compare the specs.

The one thing I will point out is that the D40 is smallish and also doesn't have an autofocus drive motor and has only 3 autofocus points. It also don't have a top LCD and uses a smaller battery than the D50 which is harder to find. Why I point this out is because the D50 is very similarly priced with the only drawback being it is slightly larger. So if you want a really fast lens like the Nikon 50mm f1.8 which is really cheap (and I could not live without) you can't use auto focus at all with it.

The big issue I have with Canon D-SLR is the same I have with the D40 - No top status LCD. This was a little feature to me, not a requirement when I picked up my D50. The D40 and Canon's use the back LCD to display this, but the panel is bigger and has a backlight and therefore wastes more power. The upshot is that easy to ready at night. I love it and would find it a pain to have to deal with the back one, but its a personal preference is all.

I chose Nikon because I like CCD over Cmos but this is a personal thing and takes a while to explain my personal reasons. Its a choice but both make really good images.

Keep in mind as well that Nikon and Canon have slightly different sensor size. Nikon DX is 1.5x Crop, Canon aps-c is 1.6x so its slightly smaller. So a 50mm on a nikon is like a 75 while on the canon is more like a 80. Not a big difference but one all the same. If you want to deal with higher powered zooms it means you would like slightly higher glass on the Canon. Not a big deal though or difference until you start getting into major zoom levels.

So what I'm saying is that if you specifically want to not have the more complicated manual controls then the D40 is a good bet. Its also smaller. But if you want higher end then you should compare between the Rebel XT and the D50. Neither will let you down. However you are choosing not a camera but a system. If you chose either you can always get a new body later and use your same lenses.

If you go the nikon route and are used to higher optical zooms then I would suggest the 55-200mm DX lens or the 70-300mm lens. Or if you have more money you can get a kit with the 18-200mm lens. I assume canon has the same type of lens's in the same price points.

Keith,

Thanks for all the points. I'm still a little ways off, but I think a Rebel XT or the D50 may work for me. I like CMOS, but that's just me.

Thanks again,

Heath

Heath,

remember that the camera body is only part of the story. Have a look at the lenses and accessories as well. Once you invest in a camera body you are probably stuck with a camera system for quite a while. Ask yourself, which lenses you would like to have in the future, wether image stabilizer lenses are important for you and so on.

Also try the handling of different bodies and see which you like best (the Canon 400D for example, I don't know how it's called in the US, is way to small for me, I like the big chunky ones...).

Thanks, Rainer. I'll probably start with the standard lens, then add on as I need it. I plan on getting comfortable with it first, do some portrait-style pix, nature, etc. I'm sure within a month or so, I'll go grab some new lenses.

heath

For your first and only lens, I would get a wide zoom, such as the Nikon 18-70mm. According to reviews, it's much better than the 18-55. If you go for the 55-200mm, you will find that you will also need something wider. The 18-200mm lens seems like it would fit the bill, but realize that as you zoom, the maximum aperture is quite small.

You are robbing yourself of that pro look if you have a lens that doesn't open up to f/2.8 at 70mm or so. If you end up with an 18-70mm, go for something magical such as the Nikon 85mm f/1.4 or f/1.8. Then, you'll experience the joys of the DSLR.

Great advice, too, thanks!

heath

Heath - either are great cameras / the d40 also won't take alot of second party/cheaper lenses like the sigma 18-200mm.Canon and nikon glass is costly. I'd go for an xt but I've also already bought 2 canons and am probably tilted .

I think my final decision, based on everyone's great advice, is to go with the Canon Rebel XT. I plan on making my purchase in the spring, so I'll update then.

THANKS!

heath

To expand Heath's question a little... I am also thinking about getting a DSLR. I'll probably go with Nikon because of my familiarity with their fixed lens cameras. And I have several old lenses from my Nikon F days. One is a long third party telephoto, maybe 250 mm, but totally manual without even a DOF preview. Do these lenses work properly with the Nikon DSLR's in manual mode?

Was looking at the D80, but the D50 looks pretty nice, I don't know whether I particularly need more than 6MP and for $450 it looks like a good value. Would also leave some money to buy a good manual wide lens like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productList&A=buyUsed&Q=36890

I don't mind using manual focus and iris settings, in fact I would prefer it for my type of work, if the viewfinder is decent. I read somewhere that the camera will tell you when it thinks the image is in focus when using a manual lens. How well does that work? Would it be worth the extra $500 to get the D80? I read that you can't lock the mirror on the D50, is that true? Will that make it noiser than the D80 to use in a quiet theatre?

I'm really not up to speed on DSLR's, have been using a 5MP Nikon Coolpix 5700 for several years, but it has stopped working properly.

Heath, I just made the exact same decision you made, but for a slightly different reason. I found a used Rebel XT with the 18-55mm lens for $329 on BH photo. I'll repeat that: $329. The body has a few scratches, but the lens, CMOS, and LCD are in perfect condition. As of last week, I was a point and shooter, now I'm a full-blown photo geek trying to figure out how to get a 2.8 or better zoom lens 18-70mm, at least, for a decent price. One Caveat on the Canon lenses: for DSLR lenses, check BH and compare offerings between Canon and Nikon. From what I've seen, there seems to be more selection in the Nikon camp and slightly better prices.

I'll look for deals like that, thanks!

heath

Just out of curiousity, are any of these good:

http://kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=7372&pq-locale=en_US&_requestid=13349

heath

you're comparing apples to oranges. All of the DSLR cams have sensor sizes that are *close* to 35mm. APS-C which is the Canon size is close to 30mm. The consumer or prosumer non-DSLR cams are going to have consumer-sized sensors--approx 1/3" to 1/2". No comparison as far as Depth of field and latitude are concerned.

Gotcha, thanks.

hwm

The consumer or prosumer non-DSLR cams are going to have consumer-sized sensors--approx 1/3" to 1/2".

Actually my Nikon Coolpix 5700 has a 2/3" CCD...

OK, maybe I'm not completely "getting it" when it comes to DSLR's. I was in Circuit City today so I just played around a little with the well-worn floor models. None of the Nikon's showed an image on the LCD while in camera mode, which I guess makes sense because the mirror is blocking the CCD.

So I tried locking the mirror up on the D80. When I did that, nothing worked on the camera at all. I was assuming that this would let you use the camera like one of the consumer cameras and see the image on the CCD. Guess I was wrong about that?

One of my concerns with a DSLR is that I like to take photos of our performance out in the audience, and the mirror/shutter noise on a film SLR is not acceptable for that. This is one of the nice things about using a digital camera.... it's silent. Can any of the DSLR's operate in "silent mode"?

Also (maybe this has something to do with the condition of the Circuit City display models) the image in the D50's viewfinder was considerably dimmer than what I saw on the D80 and D40. The D40 and D50 had the same cheap 18mm-55mm (I think) lenses so I don't think that was the problem. The D80 had a cheap 18-135mm lens IIRC. I was really not impressed by these lenses and this makes me think that it would be a big advantage to use the old manual Nikon optics on a DSLR.

So I tried locking the mirror up on the D80. When I did that, nothing worked on the camera at all. I was assuming that this would let you use the camera like one of the consumer cameras and see the image on the CCD. Guess I was wrong about that?

Well, I'm afraid you are wrong ;-) There is still the shutter that blocks the CCD or CMOS sensor, respectively.

One of my concerns with a DSLR is that I like to take photos of our performance out in the audience, and the mirror/shutter noise on a film SLR is not acceptable for that. This is one of the nice things about using a digital camera.... it's silent. Can any of the DSLR's operate in "silent mode"?

No, It can't. There is still the shutter noise. However, a DSLR doesn't have the noise caused by advancing the film and therefore should be somewhat less noisy than a film SLR.

Also (maybe this has something to do with the condition of the Circuit City display models) the image in the D50's viewfinder was considerably dimmer than what I saw on the D80 and D40. The D40 and D50 had the same cheap 18mm-55mm (I think) lenses so I don't think that was the problem. The D80 had a cheap 18-135mm lens IIRC.

This is a somewhat more complex problem. Firstly, the cameras with an APS-C sized sensor have a dimmer viewfinder image than full frame (D)SLRs just because of the smaller viewfinder. Secondly, the "less expensive" DSLRs use a system of mirrors inside the viewfinder instead of a pentaprism (simply because a pentaprism is more expensive) and the mirrors seem to result in a considerably dimmer viewfinder ( I don't know the reason for this, but somebody else may able to explain it).

I was really not impressed by these lenses and this makes me think that it would be a big advantage to use the old manual Nikon optics on a DSLR.

The kit lenses that come with the entry level DSLRs usually are not the best lenses available (to put it mildly). Though you certainly could use the old manual Nikon lenses, you should be prepared, that not all of the camera functions are supported when you use the manual lenses. For example, some of the more amateur camera bodies don't support automatic exposure if used with the manual lenses. So, before you decide on a camera body, make sure, which functions this body supports and which functions you need.

(Sorry for my english, but when it comes to technical details like this...)

Wow, thanks a lot Rainer. I don't see any problems with your English whatsoever, those were very clear explanations!

Obviously I need to get to a camera store where someone can answer my dumb questions in person... looks like I need to stop by B&H the next time I visit NYC :-)

I keep forgetting B&H is big in photo equipment, too. I'm about to get a new job, so after I take care of some expenses from my film, I'll likely buy the Canon Rebel.

heath

Wow, thanks a lot Rainer. I don't see any problems with your English whatsoever, those were very clear explanations!

Thanks, Boyd, that's very kind of you.

One more thing: some of the Olympus DSLRs do have what's called a live preview on the monitor. So if this is something you would like, you should probably have a look at the Olympus range of DSLRs.

So I tried locking the mirror up on the D80. When I did that, nothing worked on the camera at all. I was assuming that this would let you use the camera like one of the consumer cameras and see the image on the CCD. Guess I was wrong about that?.

Yes, that is unfortunately the way they work. I would also expect a live preview during mirror lockup, but I think the main problem is that the subject is no longer reaching the autofocus mechanism. Hence, there is no focusing going on during mirror lockup. You think that would also not be a problem for many customers, but the deal is that SLR customers just want the same features they had on film cameras. It takes a lot of video-minded customers to change thing.

Can any of the DSLR's operate in "silent mode"? .
Not Canon or Nikon. I'm willing to pay for an "electronic" shutter, but the same problem remains: the focusing and metering hardware and viewfinder get the light until it is completely diverted to the CCD. This setup enables the camera to be as sensitive as possible.

The solution is to buy a camera sound "blimp", but again, much of the noise travels through the lens. In your situation, I think a box filled with Auralex and lined with metal or lead (dense metal that is available in plastic-sealed sheets) would take the bite out of most of the sound.


Also (maybe this has something to do with the condition of the Circuit City display models) the image in the D50's viewfinder was considerably dimmer than what I saw on the D80 and D40. The D40 and D50 had the same cheap 18mm-55mm (I think) lenses so I don't think that was the problem. The D80 had a cheap 18-135mm lens IIRC. I was really not impressed by these lenses and this makes me think that it would be a big advantage to use the old manual Nikon optics on a DSLR.

You may be pleased with the bigger, brighter viewfinders on the D2 pro bodies. While you will certainly have no trouble with the "big manual" Nikon optics, keep in mind that the D40 doesn't have a screw motor and is limited to the types of lenses it can operate. Also, you will probably find yourself using the wide aperture lenses by Nikon, thus helping boost the brightness of the viewfinder. Drop some money on the best Nikon wide-aperture primes (f/1.4 to f/2) as the zoom lenses won't serve you in the theater as they are softer than the good primes even at f/2.8. Also, given the dynamic lighting in theater, shoot in RAW (compressed NEF) so you have a chance to warp or recover highlights.

Thanks a lot Gints! I need to spend a little time learning about the state of the art with DSLR's. I used to do a lot of photography going back to the 1970's when I had a darkroom and a couple Nikons, but I did less and less as the years passed. Then when I got my first digital camera in 1999 I packed up all my film cameras and haven't touched on since :-)