My wife is taking an extended tour of the Far East and I'm trying to decide on the best (affordable) HD camcorder for her. She would use the camera for both video and still photography (so she needs to carry only one camera). Due to poor health I am no longer able to travel so you might say that whatever camera she takes with her will be my eyes and ears for the trip.

It appears that, in my price range I have 3 alternatives: Sony's HDR-HC3 and HDR-UX1, and Canon's HV10. I'm posting in this forum since her choice, based strictly on look and feel, is the HV10. I on the other hand like the Sony cameras since they have provisions for an external wired mic and a hot shoe for a very nice Bluetooth wireless mic, lights, etc. Once she is back in the U.S., her camera will become the family camera and I'd like as much flexibility as possible as far as options go. What really bothers me about the HV10 is the lack of an external mic. I seldom use an on-camera mic for any shooting I do. I should add that I'll be editing the footage on a Mac with FCP HD.

Anyway, all you HV10 lovers out there, let me know your thinking on this.

I don't know the other models, but I like my HV10. I bought it as a camera for viewing and capturing footage from my XLH1, but have been doing some shooting with it, and the picture is excellent. The lack of mic is a bummer, and if it were my only camera, I wouldn't be satisfied. But it depends how elaborate you get with your audio.
I heard that someone did a mod to somehow be able to use an external mic, but don't remember where.
Bruce yarock
www.yarock.com

My wife is taking an extended tour of the Far East and I'm trying to decide on the best (affordable) HD camcorder for her. She would use the camera for both video and still photography (so she needs to carry only one camera). Due to poor health I am no longer able to travel so you might say that whatever camera she takes with her will be my eyes and ears for the trip..

Ron i'm sorry you cant enjoy the trip with your with but here is what i will do for you. give me untill the end of today XMAS day and I will put online a demo reel i you will the same shot with the HDR-HC3 and the HV-10 i will post a 720P file for you to download. i just need sometime to get outside find somthing and shoot. i will also do it in full auto since it might be easy for your wife at times not to white balance and mess with settings.

I will put up the video later

~Mike

The HC3 doesn't have a mic input... it can use the Sony proprietary shoe mics but that's it. Of the 3 cameras you listed, only the UX1 can connect to regular external mics. Maybe you could still find a HC1? Its a little bigger than the HC3 but similar video quality and it has a real mic input.

It may be just me, but when I buy one of these cameras, picture quality is #1 on my list....bar none. In terms of pure picture quality neither Sony can touch the HV10. I've had all three cameras and the HV10 is simply superior to the Sonys in so many way. Sharpness, color, almost total lack of video noise in decent to good lighting, utterly incredible autofocus, all contribute to the most professional looking footage I've seen in any of these small HDV cams.

I just recently bought the Sony FX7 and it's utterly amazing how close in picture quality the HV10 is to the much bigger & heavier Sony. For my money the HV10 is at the top of the small HDV cams heap and unbelievably close to ANY HDV cam around. No contest, the HV10 wins.

as promised, here is the footage of HC1/3 and the HV-10

Http://www.MF726.com/vidclips/Footage.mov
Makesure you download since it's 720P and very large

~Mike

Mike -
My wife and I just finished watching your excellent demo clip. We really appreciate taking the time to do that for us. My wife doesn't know model numbers, so she didn't know which clip was the Sony and which was the Canon. I just asked her which picture she thought was the best... she chose the HV-10. I must say, I have to agree with her. The HV-10 image had better color saturation and a sharper image. You were right in assuming she is a point-and-shoot gal. She never takes her cameras out of 'auto' mode. (I hate to admit it, but many times she has captured something that I missed because I was fiddling with the controls.)

If you should ever have a little free time and looking for a project, how about making a video showing how the HV-10 is set up for a shoot. I'm talking about everything from charging the battery to inserting the tape and battery to actually shooting a video. These are all things my wife has asked me and since I've never held the camera, I can only guess from the pictures I've seen. I searched the web for a demo tape like this and came up dry. I'm guessing others might find this information useful as well.

Unfortunately your tape might end up costing me a small fortune. My wife enjoyed your tape a bit too much. She pointed at the screen and said: "that's what I want". I thought she was talking about the camera when in fact she was talking about your sun room!

Ron/Mike,
Let me know if I can help. I have 6 other HDV camera, but I keep turning back to the HV10. The quality of this camera exceeds many, many cameras....


- Aanarav

I saw on another thread that HV-10 / FCP users are having trouble with "timecode breaks" during playback and capture. Some frankly stated that the HV-10 makes a lousy playback deck. In the SD world I never used the camera as the playback deck (I used a Sony DHR-1000 for this purpose). I did this to get as much life out of the camera's video head as possible. With the HV-10 I'll have no choice but to use the camera itself. Comments?

One important thing that should be mentioned in these comparisons and doesn't show up in Mike's great shots, is the size and resolution of your HDTV.

I've got a friend in Toronto who's got a 64" HDTV that's been modified to produce a 100" image. It's also a full 1920X1080 resolution. He had an HC1 on loan from a friend and he told me he was a bit disappointed in the image on the large screen. He felt there simply wasn't enough resolution in the HC1 to throw it up on a 100" screen. I'd been watching on a 50" plasma with a resolution of 1368X768, so I didn't see what he was talking about (at that time I owned an HC1).

This same friend then bought the HV10 on my advice and he couldn't believe the difference in quality. He said the HV10 DOES have the resolution he thought the HC1 should have had. He now felt his images from the HV10 looked like true HD on his 100" screen. Now I could certainly see the difference even on my 50" plasma between the HV10 & HC1, but the difference on a full 1920X1080 large screen display is apparently even greater!

I saw on another thread that HV-10 / FCP users are having trouble with "timecode breaks" during playback and capture. Some frankly stated that the HV-10 makes a lousy playback deck. In the SD world I never used the camera as the playback deck (I used a Sony DHR-1000 for this purpose). I did this to get as much life out of the camera's video head as possible. With the HV-10 I'll have no choice but to use the camera itself. Comments?

I've read the same comments, but it seems that most who are having problems are using FCP. Others are using FCP and are not having problems. As an example, I use Canopus' Edius Pro and have no such problems. Others have commented they're using different editing programs (other than FCP) and are also having no issues.

So it seems it has little to do with the HV10 (if anything), and more to due to with the editing program.

Ron,

I might have some time later to put something together but I am not entirely sure. I believe the great thing about this community is the fact that we are all willing to give advance and help others and it's a very mature group here.

Have you seen my review video on the HV-10 with some extra footage

Found here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82426

take a look at that and see for yourself some unboxing shots to at least see what comes in the box and my first run and gun footage with the camera. i put that post up for users like you and your wife.

~Mike

EDIT** and ron here is also a recap video i put together with my HC1 from a vacation i went on http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82429

Edit EDIT** ok and again while i am at it might as well also show you the lowlight footage and trust me the lowlight footage of the hv-10 will not get any lower then this... i did it in a pitch black room check it out http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82477

as promised, here is the footage of HC1/3 and the HV-10

Http://www.MF726.com/vidclips/Footage.mov
Makesure you download since it's 720P and very large

~Mike

Thanks for the comparison clip. To my amateur eyes, they look similar. I see differences, but nothing to make me say there is an easy winner. Maybe if I watched it on a big screen tv.

Mike - Thanks for the additional footage references. The low light clip really hit home. My wife goes to a class reunion each year and has become the official videographer. I, on the other hand, do all of the post-production work, then ship customized DVD's to each attendee (gratis of course). Unfortunately, these reunions usually take place in dimly lit restaurants. Trying to pull out individual headshots in post is a major pain due to the high video noise levels at these low light levels. Having an on-camera video light will be a blessing.

Speaking of DVD's how are you all saving and distributing your end product? Buying a Blu-Ray drive and media is out of the question right now. Besides, what are the chances any of her classmates would have a matching drive. I remember reading some place that you can write HD video to a conventional DVD and that most modern players can handle it. I have a Buffalo LinkTheater that I use to display computer recorded ATSC broadcasts (~8MB/s) streamed over the LAN and it looks great on my old 63" HD RP monitor (component video). I think I'll take your demo footage, run it through FCP and see what I can do about using a conventional DVD. If I can get an image as good as the 8MB/s image I'm getting now from off-air ATSC broadcasts I'll be a happy camper.

Mike -
I just remembered that your video clip is in Quicktime. Is it possible to generate a data file of exactly what comes out of your camera prior to conversion? I'm guessing not, but I thought I'd ask.

Ron,

First off with the dvds and how I give my clients there videos... Depending on who it is, is how i do my videos. Example the sports bar i shoot videos for has a HDDVD player hooked up to the plasma tv's around the bar. So if we shoot videos in HD for the bar(bar vs bar baseball games, Bar partys, wet tshirt contest playback) they end up with an HDDVD video that looks good. and with HDDVD you can make a video with a normal dvd burner and a normal dvd disk. but it's just not worth it.... Other clients like the day spa has a media server that we lease to them. This media server we can connect to via FTP and upload HD WMV files and get added to the playlist and then are displayed on HD TV's in rooms.

Working with HD is a pain becuase there is no fixed format that you can give to your clients. so far computer is the best way to view these amazing videos.

untill the price drops on BluRay or HDDVD no body consumer wise wants to spend the cash, BUT!!! they all want the videos you shoot to be HD.

The one good thing is even if your working with an HD FILE and you dont down convert to capture once you render to an SD format like a normal SD DVD you have a little more quality in your video... But be careful sometimes you can get bad video also(jagged edges and lines).

Now onto the data right off the cam. In FCP it goes from a M2T right to quicktime. I don't mind it keeps the computer happy. If you capture with vegas and don't use 3rd party software you get the m2t but man it is a bitch to edit.

FCE and FCP are amazing at the way they handle HD.. Something you might want to look into is making a DVD Video/Data disks. I do this sometimes when a client wants the video in HD but cant get a HD DVD player for whatever reason. I put video on the disk so it plays on the dvd player but then if you stick it in the PC it has an AutoRun and plays a HD WMV file of the video.

Video is like crack you spend alot of money and once you have somthing. there is better and you need that better and you want MORE AND MORE AND MORE.

not that i know what using crack is like but i think that is a good example.

Ron don't worry about give your wife's friends HD format of video keep that for yourself untill everything with bluray and hddvd calms down.

you can always give them a download link to view the video in HD.

now unless your wife shoots in closet or laundry room like i did in that video i think you will be happy with the low light. Maybe you can just teach her how to white balance with the on cam light so her friends faces wont look blue.

Ron feel free to keep them coming and i'll try my best to respond.

Mike

as promised, here is the footage of HC1/3 and the HV-10

You have blurred the fields together. Try deinterlacing before encoding or trying to get those fields encoded properly. Not a good comparison as the frames are blurred.

You have blurred the fields together. Try deinterlacing before encoding or trying to get those fields encoded properly. Not a good comparison as the frames are blurred.

Mikko,

The purpose of the clip was to show the diff in both cams. I DID NOT blur any fields the only thing i did was add text and then i had to lower the res since it was at 1080i.

And im not sure about you but everyonce else was able to see it ok.. maybe there is somthing wrong on your end because it looks fine on my end.

cheers

~Mike

Hey Ron,

I just also wanted to show you a little clip i put together today...

I have been at my girlfriends house and went back to my house to check on things. the skys opened up alittle bit and i was able to get some really nice shots also a few boats went out today. I was really impressed by how well the video came out. The sun was a little harsh at the front of my house but in the back it made all the green stand out and lit the flowers yellow very well.

I hope you enjoy it, no audio just video to keep file small.

http://www.mf726.com/vidclips/pbtest.mov

~Mike

P.S, I don't mind comments in fact i love to hear the good and i really love to hear the bad it's how i learn but if by clicking on your user name and seeing all of your posts are arguing or telling others what they are doing wrong even tho your the only one that sees it. PLEASE don't post. We are here to help ron and others learn about the cameras so please respect what others are trying todo here.

Mike - Thanks again for the excellent footage. FYI, I finally figured out how I am going to store playable copies of HD videos. I took your sample clips and encoded them in Divx HD and stored them on a single DVD data disk. I then played the disk on my DivX HD set-top player and they looked fantastic! Your 133MB 'Footage' clip was a mere 37MB after encoding, but sharp as a tack and atrifact free on a 63" RP monitor. Not Blu-Ray for sure, but at 3.5:1 compression (16GB video on a 4.7GB DVD), it's pretty darn good. Best of all it allows me to use hardware I already own and cheap DVD blanks. Only thing missing now is the camera ;-)

(Oh, by the way... nice digs)

Mike - Thanks again for the excellent footage. FYI, I finally figured out how I am going to store playable copies of HD videos. I took your sample clips and encoded them in Divx HD and stored them on a single DVD data disk. I then played the disk on my DivX HD set-top player and they looked fantastic! Your 133MB 'Footage' clip was a mere 37MB after encoding, but sharp as a tack and atrifact free on a 63" RP monitor. Not Blu-Ray for sure, but at 3.5:1 compression (16GB video on a 4.7GB DVD), it's pretty darn good. Best of all it allows me to use hardware I already own and cheap DVD blanks. Only thing missing now is the camera ;-)

(Oh, buy the way... nice digs)

Ron,

Thanks ron but do me a favor and also keep editable files at max quality stored on hard drives for backup besides the divx format on dvd. You know know when you need a HQ file or when you might need to put a bunch together and to edit or even re encode to edit a divx is a pain in the backside.

and thank you I have worked alot and got lucky being 22 years old with a nice home and a future is a blessing but to be honest I don't nearly get to spend as much time at home as i would like, and when I do it's in the studio editing. it's not worth having nice things unless you get to enjoy them. Mind you later on I will have nice things to enjoy and i can always get someone to do the work for me and relax but IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE RIGHT YOU HAVE TO DO IT YOURSELF!!!! :)
The moral here kids is WORK SUCKS!

Ron let me know what cam you decide on keep in touch. in my profile is my e-mail ad and please if you have any qustions or want to talk about any of the gear email me your phone number or ask me for mine.

Off to the airport once again take care

~Mike

Ron,

Thanks ron but do me a favor and also keep editable files at max quality stored on hard drives for backup besides the divx format on dvd. You know know when you need a HQ file or when you might need to put a bunch together and to edit or even re encode to edit a divx is a pain in the backside.

~Mike
I agree that keeping the orignal HQ file is a good idea. Unfortunately there is just so much disk space. As to the camera, we decided to go with the HV-10.

Mike - Thanks again for the excellent footage. FYI, I finally figured out how I am going to store playable copies of HD videos. I took your sample clips and encoded them in Divx HD and stored them on a single DVD data disk. I then played the disk on my DivX HD set-top player and they looked fantastic! Your 133MB 'Footage' clip was a mere 37MB after encoding, but sharp as a tack and atrifact free on a 63" RP monitor. Not Blu-Ray for sure, but at 3.5:1 compression (16GB video on a 4.7GB DVD), it's pretty darn good. Best of all it allows me to use hardware I already own and cheap DVD blanks. Only thing missing now is the camera ;-)

(Oh, by the way... nice digs)

Ron could you explain how you encoded to divx? I have tried Dr Divx with 6.4 and although there is 1080HD mode it defaults to a lower resolution. I can manually resize it (not sure whether thats the right way to do it) and the ouput is not bad. I have also tried encoding straight from vegas 7.c which has more control over bitrate but for some reason the brightness / gamma is too high?

Any tips welcomed!

Fergus -

I simply dropped Mike's clips into DivX Converter and selected 'HD'. Using footage.mov as an example...

Input (to converter) Quicktime, 1280 x 720 progressive, 29.97fps, 133MB file

Output (from converter): DivX 6.4.0, 1280 x 720 progressive, 29.97fps, 37.7MB file, bitrate = 4Mb/s.

Yes, the low bit rate is a bit scary, but there weren't any motion artifacts during Mike's zooms. I prefer 720p over 1080i so didn't up-convert. This was just a quick test to see if it would work. I currently don't have any way to shoot HD, so haven't tried FCP HD yet. I did try to make a HD DVD using conventional media, but never got it too work. Since DivX HD will play on my set-top player, this seems to be the way to go until Blu-Ray burners, players and media are affordable.

Cheers Ron

I was looking at Stage6 which looks like a good you tube like site for potentially shairng clips - encoding as 1080p 6 mbs doesnt look too bad using Dr DivX - I dont think the converter supports 1080HD yet

I DID NOT blur any fields the only thing i did was add text and then i had to lower the res since it was at 1080i.


Because you changed the original res from 1440x1080i to something else your scaler apparently blurred the fields together. It's not interlaced anymore and there are blurred images. That decreases resolution and noise.