Okay, I've connected my V1U to three different LCD computer monitors of at least 1200 lines of vertical resolution and they all adjust the HDMI signal to 720x480. My 20" 1600x1200 4:3 Samsung 204b monitor stretches the image vertically and the other monitors I tried were widescreen and kept the aspect ratio correct but still had low resolution.

While I am happy that my monitor and camera were able to communicate in some fashion, it would be much more useful if the output was HD. Does anyone know how HDMI might be working in SD instead of HD? I would love to have a 17"-19" widescreen LCD that can go noticeably higher than 720x480.

Have you checked the menu to see if you can set the resolution of the output video? Might be choices like 1080i/720P/480i etc... Just a thought, haven't actually touched one of these cams.

That would also be my guess... on the Z1 you can choose to downconvert the component video to 480i or 480p. See if there's a similar menu for HDMI on the V1...

I'm still working on the issue.

I went to BestBuy and Compusa today. I ran into a member of the former Vegas Video users group who was at CompUSA and he was familiar with the Z1 and found another setting that I overlooked. We connected to a widescreen Samsung monitor and it looked great! Unfortunately, my own monitor is still down-sampling but the vertical stretch is gone. I think I am going to test some more monitors tomorrow in case I was hallucinating that the one at CompUSA worked.

At BestBuy, I connected to a huge $8000 1080 plasma screen through HDMI. I must tell you that the V1 has amazing images. The guys at the store were impressed. The resolution and richness of color are top notch.

This sounds similar to the problems the PS3 is having scaling video on 720p set. If the set doesn't natively support 1080i/p the PS3 defaults to 480p.

I wonder if the V1 is doing something similar in your setup Marcus.

It's just a wild stab in the dark...

TT

This sounds similar to the problems the PS3 is having scaling video on 720p set. If the set doesn't natively support 1080i/p the PS3 defaults to 480p.
<snip>

Actually the PS3 ouputs only 720P or 1080P in HD. There is no 1080i output, so owners of 1080i sets (lots of CRT HD sets) are left with 480P. That's ridiculous, as Sony poo pooed 720P since day one and always touted 1080i. They sold countless 1080i sets I'm sure. And after telling everyone how great 1080i is, they've left 1080i owners in the cold with PS3. Not to go too far off topic here, but this is typical Sony.

That reminds me, my HD DVD drive should arrive today.

Actually the PS3 ouputs only 720P or 1080P in HD. There is no 1080i output, so owners of 1080i sets (lots of CRT HD sets) are left with 480P. That's ridiculous, as Sony poo pooed 720P since day one and always touted 1080i. They sold countless 1080i sets I'm sure. And after telling everyone how great 1080i is, they've left 1080i owners in the cold with PS3. Not to go too far off topic here, but this is typical Sony.

That reminds me, my HD DVD drive should arrive today.

I wasn't just shooting in the dark it was a blind shot as well! :)

And don't get me started on the Blu-ray v HD DVD thing........Aaaarrrrhhh.

TT

Actually the PS3 ouputs only 720P or 1080P in HD. There is no 1080i output, so owners of 1080i sets (lots of CRT HD sets) are left with 480P. That's ridiculous, as Sony poo pooed 720P since day one and always touted 1080i. They sold countless 1080i sets I'm sure. And after telling everyone how great 1080i is, they've left 1080i owners in the cold with PS3. Not to go too far off topic here, but this is typical Sony.

That reminds me, my HD DVD drive should arrive today.

Very, very, very few CRT HD sets out there, and none of them display all 1080 lines. By far and wide, and for the future, 1080p displays are in the home, office, and public viewing areas. The progressive output becomes interlaced at the display if the display doesn't have progressive input.

You're right, it's off-topic, and fairly irrelevant, as the PS3 plays just fine on an interlaced or progressive display, just as progressive movies do the same on a DVD, or interlaced media plays back fine on a progressive DVD and display device.

Marcus, the output from the camera is 1080, and is working correctly on all three displays we've got here, all of varied sizes ranging from 37" to 12' (projector). I'd suggest you've got something mis-set on the displays.

If you're in the Waikiki area, I'm willing to meet you at VideoLife this week or next to show you more about the cam if you wish.

***********

First, I am happy to hear about speculation. I know nothing about HDMI and DVI, so the tidbits that get swept in talking about somewhat off-topic shots in the dark don't bother me.

Spot, I tried sending you mail through dvinfo.net but didn't get a reply. I wasn't sure you were still coming to Hawaii. I'd be happy to meet at VideoLife, but I leave on Sunday so we would need to meet Thursday (today), Friday, or Saturday. I'll have to admit that I enjoy everything about the V1, but getting up to speed is overwhelming with so many features. When will you be at VideoLife?

I too am having problems getting my Sony HVR-V1U to output high definition to my Panasonic 50" plasma monitor with a DVI input.

I'm using a Monster HDMI to DVI cable. I've tested that the Panasonic DVI port can accept a 1080i HDMI signal from my Dish Network HD DVR, which outputs a 1080i signal via it's HDMI port. The signal quality is fantastic and is definitely "HD" 1080i. The Panasonic Plasma provides a some information about the signal it is receiving from its DVI port.

The Panasonic monitor indicates the Dish Network DVR DVI signal horizontal frequency is 33.8 kHz and the vertical frequency is 60 Hz (as to be expected). The Panasonic monitor indicates the Sony HVR-V1U HDMI horizontal frequency is 31.5 kHz and the vertical frequency is 59.9 Hz.

It also seems that the V1U's 'DOWN CONVERT" menu option controls the HDMI output to the Panasonic monitor. The squeeze setting will output the correct aspect ratio it is still in SD quality. This leads me to believe that the problem is in fact the output from the camera, rather than some incompatibility with the Monitor, but I suppose if the camera is detecting some setting from the DVI/HDMI cable feeding back from the monitor, this could possible be a problem. I suppose the monitor could be downsampling, but I doubt this is the problem, as I don't know if it knows how to downsample the HDMI/DVI digital signal, I think it presents what it gets.

I plan to try to attach the V1U to other DVI monitors to see if this makes a difference, but in the meantime, if anybody has a clue, I'd appreciate any advice.

Best Regards,

-Keith Moreau

More information:

I used the same HDMI to DVI cable to plug into my Samsung LCD Computer Monitor, which has a native resolution of 1600x1200. The image was still the same. The monitor reported the same vertical and horizontal frequencies, but also had additional information about the DVI input resolution, which it reported as 640x480.

I fiddled with the V1 menus again in an attempt to somehow reset the resolution to the HD value, no luck. I've used the component outs and they've worked fine, outputting 1080i.

I'm going to try some other systems and perhaps some other cables.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

-Keith

More info:

After more testing HDMI to HDMI works as expected, HDMI to DVI doesn't.

I tried the V1U on a neighbor's LCD monitor with a HDMI input, and the V1U does output 1080i with that connection. When connecting with either my HDMI to DVI cable or a HDMI to HDMI with a DVI adapter to a DVI input on his LCD monitor, it downrezed as it did on my Panasonic DVI connection. The monitor reported a 720x480 resolution with DVI and a 31kHz vertical and 60 Hz horizontal.

I think the Sony V1U HDMI output is somehow sensing that the connection is not an HDMI connection and engaging a copy protection scheme of down-rezing the picture to DV resolution, which it shouldn't but is. I'm wondering if this is a bug or a 'feature'. In any case it shouldn't be happening as pretty much every HDMI output device should be 100% compatible with a DVI device. If anybody has an idea of how to work around this without me having to get an HDMI interface to my Panasonic plasma I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm wondering if this is important enough to bring up to Sony, I think it is a flaw.

Regards,

-Keith

I have a monitor (Dell 2407) with HDCP on it's DVI input, I should try that out with the appropraite cable. It 'should' work as the camera has no way of knowing otherwise.
We have an older HP 1080 24" monitor with no HDCP and I'm betting the camera will not work right with that.
However if the camera is insisting on a HDCP equiped device that sounds pretty strange to me.

Hadn't considered this at all until I read this thread;
I have one particular monitor that has both DVI and HDMI on it; nothing else I have has both.
Connecting HDMI input via two cables, one with a DVI adaptor, and one with no DVI adaptor, and alternatively plugging both cables into the V1, I can also see resolution differences.
I've emailed Sony Japan about why this would be, but in the meantime, I'll hazard a guess that the HDMI proc that they have in the V1 may already have an ICT control of some sort built in.

Thanks for the quick reply, Douglas. Of note as well is that the DVI interface I have in my Panasonic Plasma monitor is listed as HDCP compliant, so theoretically the Sony V1U should handshake with that and not down-rez. In addition the footage shot and played back by the V1U should not be copy- protected and therefore should not be doing any HDCP handshaking or at least downrezing.

Do you think this is a bug or a feature? If a feature why would Sony put it in? Do you think it might be solved with a special hardware adapter or do you think it might be some signal/firmware handshaking where DVI doesn't understand what the Sony HDMI is asking?

The only other thing I can think of is that perhaps the HDMI output is 9 or 10 bit color and the DVI might be limited to 8 bit color and maybe the V1U doesn't like it.

Regards,

-Keith

Somehow, I knew this would be the issue. I knew that $250 widescreen computer monitors as HD monitors would be asking too much. I knew that the HDCP stuff would be the source. I don't know how, but I knew. I know there is a post somewhere in the history of this site where I said it probably wouldn't work, but I'm too lazy to dig for it.

Of course, in that same post I said that I would be satisfied if I could just get decent SD video out of a computer monitor and I guess that makes me satisfied. I saw a 20" HDTV LCD with HDMI inputs at Costco yesterday for about $400, so I suppose a quasi-pseudo-HD LCD with HDMI isn't such a bad deal. I guess that I'm currently satisfied and will be happy in the not-so-distant future.

I saw a 20" HDTV LCD with HDMI inputs at Costco yesterday for about $400, so I suppose a quasi-pseudo-HD LCD with HDMI isn't such a bad deal. I guess that I'm currently satisfied and will be happy in the not-so-distant future.

If that is the Sceptre Monitor, don't get it. I'm returning mine. I ordered it online for $300. However, I've found it to lack detail and create that dreaded "watercolor" effect. Bad scaling algorithms is my guess. I've tried both Component and HDMI and they both look crappy. Not at all like my Professional Sony 23" LCD which is sharp. I guess you get what you pay for. Still searching for a good field monitor (20" or less) that will impress clients.

After I returned my Sceptre monitor I went to Best Buy in search of a cheap field monitor that didn't make the image look like total crap. I took my camera in with a component cable and hooked it up to at least 15 different displays. What I found surprised me.

Not one monitor less than 27" looked even remotely like HD. All brands: Sony, Samsung, Sharp, etc. looked equally bad. They all exhibited aliasing with vertical and horizontal lines, introduced watercolor effects and added noise to the image. What I think is going on is that the scaling algorithms are extremely poor. My guess is that if you connected a computer to their VGA or DVI inputs at their native resolutions, it would be quite sharp. But when you send it an HD signal higher than the native resolution, it will ruin the quality by scaling it down.

If anyone finds a fairly affordable consumer HD LCD display at 20" or less that looks good with HDMI or component, I'd love to hear which one. From what I can tell, it doesn't exist.

At Best Buy, were these LCD computer monitors, LCD HDTVs or both ?

Any 20" or less monitor I could find with a component or HDMI input (mostly component). A couple were in the computer department, but most in the TV department.

Been lurking this thread for a while - no V1, but may rent one soon.

When I went shopping for a new HDTV before Christmas, Best Buy did not have any true HDTV (that is, with a digital tuner, one of my criteria) under 24".

I ended up at Costco with a Vizio VX-20L LCD HDTV that is 1080i, HDMI in, Digital Tuner, etc. I think I paid $400, more or less. This could be what Marcus saw at Costco in Honolulu.

My hope is that it will accept HDMI from the V1 and not rescale (1080i !!), but I've not had a chance to test this yet.

I think that may be the one I saw. I'm eager to know if it works properly, even if I may not be able to afford it right now.

Seth.....How is the Vizio described in your post working for you? I saw it today at Costco and was pretty impressed. I've also been lurking about for awhile, but finally pulled the trigger on a Canon XH-A1 that should be in my hands tomorrow. I have Dell 2405/2007 for editing monitors. Although I'm not quite ready yet, I am researching LCD HDTVs to use for previews and for viewing raw footage.

Lots to learn and there seems to be many willing to impart their knowledge/opinions. Thanks to all.

Seth.....How is the Vizio described in your post working for you?...
Until this morning, I was only using it as a TV. Audio from an upsampling DVD player over HDMI was a little low, but that was my only complaint.

Took delivery on a V1 yesterday, hooked it up to the Vizio VX-20L LCD HDTV this morning for a quick test. TV reports the signal as 1080i in all camera modes, good. Apparently no HDCP issues, as far as I could tell with the tools I had there was no downsampling.

The TV's scan is darn close to what the camera shows in allscan mode - 2%? 5%? Close enough. I was limited to handheld on a 3' HDMI cable, so wasn't able to be very precise, but I was happily surprised.

The 10% black bar on Type 1 color bars is just right with default contrast and brightness on the TV.

Bars look amazingly clean. Every edge is sharp, well defined, no bleed, welcome to all-digital!

TV easily showed chroma noise at 9db gain.

That was about as far as I got in 10 minutes of futzing (need to get a longer HDMI cable). As far as a brief test goes, I thought this was very good.

Some notes on the TV - no obvious way to mount it to a C-stand or whatever. There is a pattern of 4 screw holes on the back, I assume this is for a VESA-standard wall mount, perhaps there are existing approaches to stand-mount or something custom could be done. 120v in, no external power supply, so, no direct method for battery power. Audio over HDMI was working from the camera.

More testing in the days to come...

since the vizio VX20L is only 1366 x768 pixel, i hardly see how it could display 1080 signal without rescaling.
http://www.vizio.com/products/detail.aspx?pid=17

seems NEC is making a 19" near HDV resolution (1440x900) with hdmi
http://www.myshopping.com.au/SP--93088_NEC_NLT_19XT1_19_LCD_Television

or samsung
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4159421

Tamuz is making a full hd 15" screen but unfortunately it comes only with HD-SDI input.

and epson is cooking some small marvel here
http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/2006/news_20061017_3.htm

Giroud, thanks for the clarification. It appears I misunderstood the specification. A 1080i TV is not always 1080i... Oh well. Still a good TV and it will probably see occasional use with the V1.

However, this brings up another semi-on-topic question; how big is big enough for an HD monitor? If we see the picture wall-to-wall with reasonably accurate color rendition in enough detail to easily find sharp focus, is it good enough? Or, must we insist on display rez that matches what goes down on tape?

I'm sure the answer is "it depends". I'd guess that my Vizio 20" is more than enough to drive a jib arm with, and would be fine as a client monitor on a studio shoot most of the time. Reference for color correction and DVD mastering? Maybe not, or, maybe so, depending on compensation (money, that is) and expectations.

For me, I have no personal or client support to purchase a monitor that costs as much (or more) as the V1, which would be a broadcast-level HD reference monitor. It seems to me that the questions around "how good is good enough" have only gotten more difficult in these early days of prosumer HD, much more difficult than the prosumer DV market.

***edit***
Wow. Just looked at the Epson display G. linked to above. 310 ppi!!! However, it is 7.1" diagonal. So, what do you think will be better for focus - a 7.1" 1920x1080, or, a 20" downsample at 1366x768?

Don't forget! An important aspect of this topic is whether or not the monitor will actually try to display HD from HDMI. There are all sorts of smaller HD monitors out there, but this Vizio VX20L is the VERY FIRST report of a small consumer HD monitor actually displaying footage properly from the V1. Seth, you are the first!

I give you my sincere thanks! I've really tried to find a low-cost and portable solution and this is the first. Finally, we get the benefit of digital TV from start to finish.

Considering that most HD monitors are still in the same resolution as this Vizio, I'm not too worried about it not being a full 1080i. I want to know what my video will look like to most people that watch it and almost nobody has a true 1080 display. A friend of mine just got a very expensive 60" Pioneer plasma screen and it is still 720p. There are only a few 1080p consumer monitors out there and they cost something like $8000.

BTW, Seth, how is the Vizio just as a TV?

...There are all sorts of smaller HD monitors out there, but this Vizio VX20L is the VERY FIRST report of a small consumer HD monitor actually displaying footage properly from the V1. Seth, you are the first!

I give you my sincere thanks!...
Glad to help - sorry it took so long, the last shoot that I was thinking would be shot with rental V1 was actually shot with rental HD100.

...BTW, Seth, how is the Vizio just as a TV?
At 20" it is pretty good for my old tired eyes at viewing distances of perhaps up to 8'. 12' is too far for me. Overall, it is a nice TV, and the HD tuner works well for me with rabbit ears, but then we have line-of-sight to the main transmission towers for Portland. That's right, we don't have cable (and only occasionally want it).

I bought an upsampling Sony DVD player at the same time, which connects via HDMI and sends 1080i to the TV, which also looks great, but sound level is quite low for HDMI DVD. No problem with sound level for broadcast.

Overall, I like it and would buy it again. V1-HDMI is a bonus.

Hope to see you in the islands sometime - it's been too long now (used to live there, Kalani HS, UH, worked at KHET and KGMB).

Seth, you can hire me cheap if you want to leave your V1 at home when you visit! :) Airfare should be fairly affordable these days, but the total cost of coming here can really add up if you don't get good hotel rates. Still, it's worth the trip. We get the Hawaii Superferry in a few months so travel to other islands will have another option that should keep some costs down. I'm looking forward to camping trips to other islands with my pickup truck.

While I would have preferred a computer monitor solution, it's nice to know there is at least some sort of consumer-level HD solution for the V1. I don't need to drag something like a $2000 monitor out in the field. Keeping an eye on an expensive camera is enough babysitting for me. Thanks again for the report.