For example, as much as I like the HV10/A1, they cannot be used for Xtreme Sports photography of any kind.

For what reason?

Have done some comparisons with the fix and the 25P does exhibit edge problems particularly on shiny edges, the interlaced video is perfectly clean.I did not change anything but the progressive mode and took the video immediately one after the other. I would not describe it as extreme but you can definitely see on some edges, a crawling effect.
Sorry, cannot provide the video as I only have dial up.
Michael.
But you could upload a couple of grabs easily enough! :)

Michael, I have a feeling the V1U has these artefacts too. Can you look at this thread, by Steve Mullen, and see if the 24P and 30P (Image2 and Image3) images have a similar edgy artefact like you are seeing on 25P.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82037

Look at the Holiday Blend (left of centre), particularly the shiny edge and the text on the packet. Image 1 is 60i and show no aliasing while I mage 2&3 show aliasing on edges. Is this the same as you see?

Hope you can help.

TT

Tony, inspirated by you post to Michael, I took another, closer look at those pics and am completely at lost now... Are you sure picture no 1 (upper left) is 60i? Because it seems to me that the upper right (supposed to be progressive) is ... well, sharper! Just take a look at the writing on the pack mentioned. Also, I can't see much edge aliasing in it - which particular edge do you mean?

Did you cameraa returned yet?

Tony, inspirated by you post to Michael, I took another, closer look at those pics and am completely at lost now... Are you sure picture no 1 (upper left) is 60i? Because it seems to me that the upper right (supposed to be progressive) is ... well, sharper! Just take a look at the writing on the pack mentioned. Also, I can't see much edge aliasing in it - which particular edge do you mean?

Did you cameraa returned yet?

Piotr

Yes Image 1 upper left is 60i and the other two pics are 24P & 30P. The 24P and 30P look sharper because the edges are not anti-aliased as in the 60i image. Look at the shiny diagonal right-hand edge of the Holiday Blend packet. Look at the text. The edges have a pixelated quality (stairstepping) about them compared to the smoother 60i image.

When I get my camera back I'll put the issue to bed.

TT

Yes, definitely - while the progressive pictures are clearly sharper, the edges do show some stairstepping. However, if this is how OUR progressive 25p is gonna look after the fix - I'll be satisfied. Let's keep fingers crossed!

Just one more doubt: we haven't seen the actual video, only the still grabs. If those stairsteps are crawling, that's another matter....But then, the V1U owners would have complained about it already!

For what reason?

Search the forums, you'll find 3-4 links to vid I've shot with the HC3 and the HV10 in the same situation. the HV10 engages the OIS whether you want it or not, and completely destroys the image. The A1 shares the same circuitry.
If you're shooting from sticks or general handheld use, this will not be any kind of an issue, but if you're shooting from a bouncing truck, horseback, motorcycle/ATV, skydiving, helicopter, etc...it's useless.
I'd search the link, but I'm on dialup.

The courier didn't arrive again to pick my V1E for fixing... I emailed PrimeSupport, but an automated only replay was generated. Tony, I wonder whether you left the lens hood on when packing for shipment?

The courier didn't arrive again to pick my V1E for fixing... I emailed PrimeSupport, but an automated only replay was generated. Tony, I wonder whether you left the lens hood on when packing for shipment?

Yes, I left the lens hood on the camera. I removed battery, mic, tripod plate and tape.

Sorry you are getting the run around.

TT

Hi DSE, if OIS is not good for extreme sport, then can't you switch it off before shooting ?

And if OIS is not good for extreme sport, it doesn't mean A1 is not good for extreme sport, am I right ? well, unless A1 doesn't allow you to switch OIS off but I have read it's manual, it does allow you to switch OIS off.. in this case, A1 should be good enough for your purpose of shooting extreme sport, right ?

And in this case, I don't think it is appropriate to blame OIS a flaw to A1.

Gee, why didn't I think of switching it off? ;-)

Re-read my post(s) and as I said...it engages whether you want it or not (Whether it's engaged/turned on or not).

The OIS isn't completely user-controlled. Canon tech support has said that they don't feel very many users are using the camcorders under these high-motion situations, and therefore don't see this as a problem.

Whether you think it's pointless to blame the OIS or not, it cannot be used in my particular needs, at all, due to the OIS that stays active even though it has been manually disengaged. The OIS circuit/system in the HV10 is the same one as found in the A1.
I've worked with both, I own an HV10 and borrowed an A1 for a week. It's a lot more than just reading the manual. Manuals don't convey how a product actually functions in a working environment. In fact, I rarely read a manual until I stumble across a function that I don't understand or doesn't behave the way I expect it to.
As mentioned, both the HV10 and the A1 are very fine camcorders. They just won't function in the way I need them to in my particular applications. If you don't shoot extreme sports, don't shoot from bouncing vehicles, don't shoot from ATVs, don't jump out of aircraft, and don't shoot from trotting horseback, then these cams will work wonderfully for you.
You'll not figure that out if you're only reading manuals vs actual use.

ha ha haa.. thanks a lot DSE, in this case you can never switch off OIS... mm.. otherwise the manual should clear mention "user can't switch the OIS off completely". Then what is the point to have the switch ? that is clearly a flaw design :<.

For this I am with you : ).

Yes, in many case the manual is nothing reliable (that is why i love this forum). And in Malaysia, I have no such luxury to ask either Sony or Canon vendors give me a few trial before buying the camera, I don't even have 30 days money back guarantee, not even 1 day... it is once sold non-returnable.

And today I have just paid RM14000 (USD 3900) to get an A1, it is on the hand of my father & brother now, according to them, the len is like a beautiful tank, they are still playing it, so far so good (since they don't need to jump off aircraft..), hopefully there is no more flaw design other then this OIS stuff.

ta~

Yes, definitely - while the progressive pictures are clearly sharper, the edges do show some stairstepping. However, if this is how OUR progressive 25p is gonna look after the fix - I'll be satisfied. Let's keep fingers crossed!

Just one more doubt: we haven't seen the actual video, only the still grabs. If those stairsteps are crawling, that's another matter....But then, the V1U owners would have complained about it already!

It's quite possible those artifacts are caused by the NLE not handling the progressive footage correctly

ha ha haa.. thanks a lot DSE, in this case you can never switch off OIS... mm.. otherwise the manual should clear mention "user can't switch the OIS off completely". Then what is the point to have the switch ? that is clearly a flaw design :<.

For this I am with you : ).

Yes, in many case the manual is nothing reliable (that is why i love this forum). And in Malaysia, I have no such luxury to ask either Sony or Canon vendors give me a few trial before buying the camera, I don't even have 30 days money back guarantee, not even 1 day... it is once sold non-returnable.

And today I have just paid RM14000 (USD 3900) to get an A1, it is on the hand of my father & brother now, according to them, the len is like a beautiful tank, they are still playing it, so far so good (since they don't need to jump off aircraft..), hopefully there is no more flaw design other then this OIS stuff.

ta~

Derek Yeo, in Singapore, has posted images from the V1, and has also confirmed issues with the A1 for some uses.

It's quite possible those artifacts are caused by the NLE not handling the progressive footage correctly
This is more likely than not. Few NLE's can manage this footage correctly at this point in time. They'll all be caught up soon, but at the moment, NLE options are very limited. Just because the NLE can manage DVX footage correctly doesn't mean it can handle GOP 24p correctly.

Derek Yeo, in Singapore, has posted images from the V1, and has also confirmed issues with the A1 for some uses.


Please can you direct me to the correct URL, I googled "Derek Yeo" and found the website of videolifestyle.com, he made some quick reviews of various Sony camcorders and one Canon consumer camcorder, but I can't find the OIS issue from his articles.

ta~

The crawling that I reported is both horizontal and vertical and is taken directly out of the camera via HDMI onto a 42" plasma HD screen.On a second look a some footage taken inside as well, the edges don't exhibit the crawling but are slightly fuzzy in places making you look at the video as if it were out of focus in those edges but fine on other edges. The video does not look sharp on some edges but fine on others at the same time. Bit like having one lense out of a pair of glasses fall out. You keep looking to find what is a clear image. I won't put an image up as too many variables come into the equation to be able to get a definite conclusion, an mt2 would be the only way of really evaluating the footage.
Michael.

The crawling that I reported is both horizontal and vertical and is taken directly out of the camera via HDMI onto a 42" plasma HD screen.On a second look a some footage taken inside as well, the edges don't exhibit the crawling but are slightly fuzzy in places making you look at the video as if it were out of focus in those edges but fine on other edges. The video does not look sharp on some edges but fine on others at the same time. Bit like having one lense out of a pair of glasses fall out. You keep looking to find what is a clear image. I won't put an image up as too many variables come into the equation to be able to get a definite conclusion, an mt2 would be the only way of really evaluating the footage.
Michael.

That sharp then fuzzy edge is due to interpolation.

An image would be useful to demonstrate the issue as you see it. The image doesn't necessarily have to me moving.

Please post a grab.

TT

The OIS isn't completely user-controlled. Canon tech support has said that they don't feel very many users are using the camcorders under these high-motion situations, and therefore don't see this as a problem.

Whether you think it's pointless to blame the OIS or not, it cannot be used in my particular needs, at all, due to the OIS that stays active even though it has been manually disengaged. The OIS circuit/system in the HV10 is the same one as found in the A1.

I've worked with both, I own an HV10 and borrowed an A1 for a week.

If you don't shoot extreme sports, don't shoot from bouncing vehicles, don't shoot from ATVs, don't jump out of aircraft, and don't shoot from trotting horseback, then these cams will work wonderfully for you.
You'll not figure that out if you're only reading manuals vs actual use.

You can knock off the OIS system on the Canon HV-A1 and G1, you can shoot bumpy rides with it. I know a guy -this is reality- that is only shooting bumpy scatemovies with the A1. No problem, he owns the cam this is no borrowed thing.

Show me evidence that the OIS system in the palmcorder HV10 and A1 is the same, that you can't manually completely turn it off. Where is that stated? Who is talking?

The crawling that I reported is both horizontal and vertical and is taken directly out of the camera via HDMI onto a 42" plasma HD screen.On a second look a some footage taken inside as well, the edges don't exhibit the crawling but are slightly fuzzy in places making you look at the video as if it were out of focus in those edges but fine on other edges.

The video does not look sharp on some edges but fine on others at the same time. Bit like having one lense out of a pair of glasses fall out. You keep looking to find what is a clear image. I won't put an image up as too many variables come into the equation to be able to get a definite conclusion, an mt2 would be the only way of really evaluating the footage.
Michael.

This crawling report shows similarities to the other report don't you think? If you can post a small .mt2 that would be fantastic. I think we have more reports coming up soon.

Here is a couple of images. Note the top of the TV screen. The blur is panning across the screen.

All I'm seeing are some information-challenged screen grabs. Your aspect ratio is not accurate on whatever camera you shot this with.
Shooting something that has clean edges with contrast might be of use? If you're trying to shoot the television screen displaying whatever you're shooting, shoot clean edges, use your still cam to zoom in deep on the edges, and then photograph that. It still won't show much useful information, but it at least will demonstrate what your television is doing to the image.
Dang, I wish my house was as clean as yours!

Show me evidence that the OIS system in the palmcorder HV10 and A1 is the same, that you can't manually completely turn it off. Where is that stated? Who is talking?
Since I don't care for the inference that I'm not being truthful, I'll leave it to someone else to share the same information provided to me both on and off tradeshow floor, that the image stabilization software is identical in the two camcorders. Not to mention the fact that I've posted footage from both, and they look identical in terms of shakey image under duress. I'm as much referring to what I've experienced with my own eyes and experiences, not from what "someone I know told me."
This thread has gotten long enough, and continues to stray in too many directions (part of which I'm guilty for myself) so methinks it's about time to close it if we can't stay on topic.

This was just screen grabs using Nero as I am having trouble with Vegas reading my M2T's. These were captured with Vegas but I could not get them on the timeline to do a screen grab. The ratio is nero's doing,I did not have time to adjust.
Michael

I think Mike's talking about the jaggies along the top edge of the bezel.

This was just screen grabs using Nero as I am having trouble with Vegas reading my M2T's. These were captured with Vegas but I could not get them on the timeline to do a screen grab. The ratio is nero's doing,I did not have time to adjust.
Michael
Well the problem with those images is aliasing, nothing to do with the camera I suspect. I can make the problem worse or better by just doing a crude rescaling. That it's being displayed at the wrong AR is probably what caused it. Any image with a strong diagonal line in it will suffer from exactly this problem when scaled without AA and/or bicubic sampling.
This would also explain the issue with the a plasma screen that's not native 1080. Also the potentialy higher res of the progressive frame will make matters more obvious.
I sadly spend a lot of time having to watch HD broadcasts on an attrocious BRAVIA Sony LCD TV, this and a large number of other artifacts appear on that device that I know are not in the HD source or in the broadcast.

I think this is going to be the challenge with HD for a while, it looks so good on the right gear and can look worse than SD on poor "HD" gear.

Sony support just called me to arrange the collection of my cam for the fix. Apparently they are not aware of the newly discussed "marching ants" phenomenon.

I would be great to see further info and experience on this matter.

Here is a couple of images. Note the top of the TV screen. The blur is panning across the screen.

Sounds to me this phenomenon you see is quite normal for HDV material. A moving image like a pan causes the image to soften anyway thus reducing the visibility of any stairsteps until the camera comes to rest.

Having read Bob's message re:Bravia HDTV artefacts I have a feeling the marching ants is a phenomenon of the viewing device.

The 25P recorded by the V1E is interlaced material and is the viewing device is unaware how to deal with Progressive material encoded in an Interlaced stream. The HDTV in question is probably de-interlacing the 25P which could easily account for marching ants type artefacts seen. How these HDTVs de-interlace 50i material is a black art and differs from manufacturer to manufacturer.

TT

The 25P recorded by the V1E is interlaced material and is the viewing device is unaware how to deal with Progressive material encoded in an Interlaced stream. The HDTV in question is probably de-interlacing the 25P which could easily account for marching ants type artefacts seen. How these HDTVs de-interlace 50i material is a black art and differs from manufacturer to manufacturer.

TT

This is exactly how I've been explaining the various and differring reports on the 25p quality when played back on LCD's or plasmas. These devices, when fed an interlaced material (and this is how the V1 output, no matter in I or P mode), are trying to deinterlace. Some do it well, some not. But "deinterlacing the deinterlaced" is a big and as yet unexplained question. Therefore, it'd be of great value to be able to play back the V1E 25p material on a CRT HDTV - never came across any report on how such setup is performing, though.

This is exactly how I've been explaining the various and differring reports on the 25p quality when played back on LCD's or plasmas. These devices, when fed and interlaced material (and this is how the V1 output, no matter in I or P mode), are trying to deinterlace. Some do it well, some not. But "deinterlacing the deinterlaced" is a big and as yet unexplained question. Therefore, it'd be of great value to be able to play back the V1E 25p material on a CRT HDTV - never came across any report on how such setup is performing, though.

Unfortunately, CRT HDTVs are almost impossible to find apart from a very low end Samsung TV which probably doesn't have the resolution to be useful. :)

I am pretty sure the Progressive problems of the V1 will be down to viewing devices and current NLE implementations.

TT

You can knock off the OIS system on the Canon HV-A1 and G1, you can shoot bumpy rides with it.
Show me evidence that the OIS system in the palmcorder HV10 and A1 is the same, that you can't manually completely turn it off. Where is that stated? Who is talking?


Since I don't care for the inference that I'm not being truthful, I'll leave it to someone else to share the same information provided to me both on and off tradeshow floor, that the image stabilization software is identical in the two camcorders. Not to mention the fact that I've posted footage from both, and they look identical in terms of shakey image under duress. I'm as much referring to what I've experienced with my own eyes and experiences, not from what "someone I know told me."

I'm not in that personal way, sorry If I hurt your feelings.
Evidence is that Canon writes black in white that the OIS can turned off. There is an on/off function. That I've seen bumping scatevideo's'. That the A1/G1 has a 20x lens which is completely different from a palmcorder HV10 lens and the OIS system to compensate with that.


This thread has gotten long enough, and continues to stray in too many directions (part of which I'm guilty for myself) so methinks it's about time to close it if we can't stay on topic.

You are right, lets call it a day, you started this OIS discussion with 'fat black letters' in this thread and repeated it. I just returned. Back to subject.

This thread has gotten long enough, and continues to stray in too many directions (part of which I'm guilty for myself) so methinks it's about time to close it if we can't stay on topic.Agreed. Closed for now.