Need to make a final buy decision Monday...

Would LOVE to see some comparison shots of same scene with each camera optimized (saw the German stillshots). But I realize how much work such things are, just dreaming I guess.

Barring that, can anyone who now has the production V1 and REALLY knows the A1 compare the two images in text?

I already know ALL the features and numbers - I am looking for a subjective opinion on how the two images compare in quality (ignoring the 25p problem).

Knowing them both, I think anyone of objective nature would have a very difficult time saying one is "better" than the other. There are features that both of them have over the other, so at the end on a bullet list or Franklin chart, they probably wash. I love the battery life of the V1, I like the preview screen on the V1, I like the DR60 option of the V1. I like the form factor of the A1. Although the A1 has a better low light rating, you'd be hard pressed to say it's got a better picture than the V1 in low light with gain, as the Sony cams handle noise better than anything. In SuperQuick focus mode, the Canon A1 is easily the fastest auto-focus camera in the HDV realm. Not every scene can use that feature, however, as it's somewhat jarring if you're not ready for it. The A1 has a slightly better overall audio package, which is important, has more exposure and preset modes. The image console is pretty cool, of course. The stabilizer is allegedy better, but I can tell/show you it's not. In fact, it's significantly worse when subjected to high vibration such as ATVs, motorcycles, or in my case, skydiving.
Both cams are very sexy, both offer a superb image, and all things considered, it's only the very small points on each of them that will likely make the difference for most any user.

<Although the A1 has a better low light rating, you'd be hard pressed to say it's got a better picture than the V1 in low light with gain, as the Sony cams handle noise better than anything.>

????

http://www.fxsupport.de/15.html 21.12.2006 08:41 In the night with A1+FX7

A feature that seems to be missed and could be quite important to people using the cameras in a chroma studio environment is the ability to capture via the HDMI port as full raster HD in 4:2:2. To have a similar feature on a Canon one has to purchase the much more expensive Canon XH-G1.

It is not going to be important to everyone but to it will be to some e.g. a cost concious indie could put the money they are saving by purchasing the Sony V1 over the XH-G1 into a 35mm adaptor.

TT

<Although the A1 has a better low light rating, you'd be hard pressed to say it's got a better picture than the V1 in low light with gain, as the Sony cams handle noise better than anything.>

????

http://www.fxsupport.de/15.html 21.12.2006 08:41 In the night with A1+FX7

Wolfgang

I can get much better low light images out of the V1 than I see in your clips from the FX7.

By turning down the colour saturation the noise becomes much less noticable even at 18dB and combined with black compress and/or cinegamma curves. I can support DSE's claims regarding noise performance.

TT

<I can get much better low light images out of the V1 than I see in your clips from the FX7.>

o.k.
the fx7 has not black compress.....

Keep in mind the FX7 does have the tools to minimize grain in very low light. There may not be as many, but there are enough to do the job.

http://www.fxsupport.de/15.html 21.12.2006 08:41 In the night with A1+FX7


Und jetzt mit m2t Dateien! Super Webseite, danke vielmals!

Just took a very interesting footage last night.

It contains everything that would give a HD cam hard times: intense colors, fire and the entire thing was shot in low light.

The result on my 50" plasma is breathtaking... (used settings advised by Tony), no noise, pitch black blacks, skin tones and details even in low light, kicking colors. Who said this cam had low light issues?? Gain was never above 6dB but sometimes it was even too much.

I will try to put together some short clip this week and post. The image quality knocks socks :)

Wolfgang's comparisons are useful, even though I can't get the videos to play on my mac... the jpgs look carefully matched in exposure, taken at nearly the same time, etc. And from the gross characteristics you can see in those (and that's all you can really compare on the web), it appears true that in good light, image quality alone is nearly a toss-up between the two.

The A1 may hold onto a Little more fine detail (except in the middle grays, where the Sony wins, --but again, these stills cannot be used to judge the fine points), but it may also be blurring/exaggerating the colors in some areas of fine detail more than the Sony -see the trees to the L in still of the wide shot of the industrial setting w/smokestacks.
His Canon lens shows a little more CA on the small lamppost on the far L of that shot, but it is positioned further to the L edge of the frame than the Sony, too.
I see nearly no difference in DR.

It looks as if the Sony gives up little if anything in the way of image quality w/its smaller chips, except in sensitivity. I think it's reasonable to declare them generally equals.

Just took a very interesting footage last night.

It contains everything that would give a HD cam hard times: intense colors, fire and the entire thing was shot in low light.

The result on my 50" plasma is breathtaking... (used settings advised by Tony), no noise, pitch black blacks, skin tones and details even in low light, kicking colors. Who said this cam had low light issues?? Gain was never above 6dB but sometimes it was even too much.

I will try to put together some short clip this week and post. The image quality knocks socks :)

Good for you Zsolt!

Yeah, proo positive not to believe the measurbators on the numbers. Skillful use of ALL of the relevant functions of the camera separate men from boys! :)

OT: Zsolt, I guess you are aware that the 25P issue is being sorted under Silver Support?

ATB
TT

I would say they are pretty close to equals. One camera does "A" better but maybe not so good with "B" and so forth. Overall they are both great values for your money and totally blow away what we had with the 1st generation of HDV cameras.

What I found interesting about these shots is that some of them had the SONY with more detail and then other shots had The Canon with more detail. Then in some shots one camera had more detail when zoomed in but then lost detail when it zoomed back out.

Overall I like both cameras and if somebody shot a movie with one I doubt any of us could sit in a theater and tell which camera was used to shoot the movie.

What I found interesting about these shots is that some of them had the SONY with more detail and then other shots had The Canon with more detail. Then in some shots one camera had more detail when zoomed in but then lost detail when it zoomed back out.



Tom, I'd be willing to bet the shot from the Sony that started at full zoom was a misfocus. I've never seen the Sony so soft when zoomed....it had to be a misfocus that corrected when he pulled back wide.

Tom, I'd be willing to bet the shot from the Sony that started at full zoom was a misfocus. I've never seen the Sony so soft when zoomed....it had to be a misfocus that corrected when he pulled back wide.

Yes one specific shot was focused on the wooden post and not the main subject but I am talking about more of a subtle detail level that I notice.

I don't think you can go wrong with either the Sony V1U or Canon XH-A1. I have the Canon XH-A1 and I'm very happy with it, but if I had bought the Sony V1U then I would be just as happy. Both the Sony V1U and Canon XH-A1 are very nice camcorders.

Picking between the Canon XH-A1 & Sony V1U is like picking between a BMW & Benz. You know both are very nice car and no matter what you choose, you'll definitely have a very nice car to drive. The Canon XH-A1 is cheaper and will save your around $500 and you can use the extra money for some accessories for your camcorder. I also like the manual controls and settings on the Canon.

So in the end it might come down to things like placement of connectors and the quality of service from the two vendors.

I don't like that the V1 has the XLRs back on top, the Z1 got it right, why did Sony go backwards with the V1? The A1 seems to have it right.

At the same time Sony's service network is the best there is, at least down here although Canon seem to be getting better at it.

So in the end it might come down to things like placement of connectors and the quality of service from the two vendors.

I don't like that the V1 has the XLRs back on top, the Z1 got it right, why did Sony go backwards with the V1? The A1 seems to have it right.

At the same time Sony's service network is the best there is, at least down here although Canon seem to be getting better at it.

I can't fault the V1 ergonomics, weight, big LCD and the excellent monitoring tools which can't be beat. Prime support worked efficiently so I'm a happy bunny. :)

TT

The Canon XH-A1 is cheaper and will save your around $500 and you can use the extra money for some accessories for your camcorder.
The V1u does come with a high quality external microphone and the XH-A1 doesn’t include one which is one of the reasons why Canon is able to release it for 3700 dollars although the XH-A1 does have an internal microphone.

The V1u does come with a high quality external microphone and the XH-A1 doesn’t include one which is one of the reasons why Canon is able to release it for 3700 dollars although the XH-A1 does have an internal microphone.

I'm pretty sure the V1U comes with the same mic as the A1U, from what I've read one of the first things everyone does is replace that stock mic. At the Sony HDV conference promoting the V1, the guy was praising the camera but really dogged the mic.

I have replaced the stock mic with a Rode. Unfortunately the stock mic has got a cable with one plug only (the other side of the cable is built into the shaft of the mic), but the Rode comes without cable.
So if you plan to replace the mic, order a short cable same time.

I know there is a lot of interest comparing these cameras. I'm afraid I only have a V1U so that is all I can offer. If anyone in the Raleigh/Durham/Greensboro NC area has an A1 and wants to get together to shoot some footage together I'm game!

Chris

It would be great if someone had both of these cameras side by side and posted some examples of an inside shot towards a bright window. Color representation and even DOF can be tweaked in post, but dynamic range is hard to change.

Anyway, that's the thing to compare, in my opinion: dynamic range.

I'd be really interested if anyone were to post some examples.

Thanks!

if anyone in Toronto owning a V1U can spare an hour or 2 in the afternoon on a weekend to do an XH-A1 comparision, I'm up for it.

One thing I like about the Canon that so far no one has mentioned.

The 50Hz version of the Canon can it seems shoot 24p, 25p, 30p, 50i and 60i.

That's a LOT of options, even though I'm in 50Hz land shooting 30p attracts me as well as being able to shoot 50i.

The 50Hz version of the Canon can it seems shoot 24p, 25p, 30p, 50i and 60i.

It doesn't come as standard, but both 50Hz and 60Hz versions of the camera can be upgraded (for a price) to shoot all the frame rates. I think the price is a few hundred dollars.

shooting 30p attracts me as well as being able to shoot 50i.

Just out of curiosity Bob, why do you like 30p? What is the characteristics 30p can deliver, say vs 25p?

Just out of curiosity Bob, why do you like 30p? What is the characteristics 30p can deliver, say vs 25p?

Smoother motion rendition. I'd LOVE 60p but that isn't going to happen for a long time.

As far as I know Canon only make native 60Hz versions of their HDV cameras, You then have the option to add 50Hz, so all Canon HDV cameras that'll shoot 50Hz retain the 60Hz frame rates.
I'll check this again but Canons ads for the XL H1, A1 and G1 list the 60Hz fps with an option to add 50Hz frame rates. This matches what Canon told me at NAB last, mind you getting that info took a lot of being bounced around their stand.
Memo to NAB exhibitors, people go there expecting your staff to know your product, some attendees do come from other countries.

so all Canon HDV cameras that'll shoot 50Hz retain the 60Hz frame rates.
I hope that's true - I read it as the option to get the *other* framerates (be that 60Hz in PAL-land or 50Hz in NTSC-ville), rather than how you have it.

That might swing me to the A1 over the V1, actually - 30p's very useful, and 50/60i field split for 50 and 60 fps can be a boon for drama too, even if you have got to take a res hit...

It would be great if someone had both of these cameras side by side and posted some examples of an inside shot towards a bright window. Color representation and even DOF can be tweaked in post, but dynamic range is hard to change.

Anyway, that's the thing to compare, in my opinion: dynamic range.

I'd be really interested if anyone were to post some examples.

Thanks!

The only person I know who tested of the two camcorders in parallel is Wolfgang Winne. In his site (in German) under http://www.fxsupport.de/15.html , you will find various m2t files straight from tape. I think one can form some opinion from his data. For example, the following stills are taken from the first day shot file:

for the A1:
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/files/2/9/0/0/1/a1_day.jpg
and for the FX7:
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/files/2/9/0/0/1/fx7_day.jpg

Here the FX7 exhibits a greater dynamic range, noticeable from the shadow under the roof and the details (or lack of) from the grey stone border of the roof.

Conversely, the following pictures are taken from the first night shot file:

for the A1:
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/files/2/9/0/0/1/a1_night.jpg
and for the FX7:
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/files/2/9/0/0/1/fx7_night.jpg

Here the FX7 exhibits a smaller dynamic range, see the lights in the petrol station versus the details from the building in the top left of the picture (see also the details, or lack of for the FX7, in the lit windows from this building).

To get these pictures, I used VLC to play the mt2 files, then use a screen grab and saved the files as compressed jpegs using Image ready ("save for web in Photoshop). The jpeg look quite similar to the originals on my monitor, and anyone can download the mt2 files anyway. I am just trying to save bandwidth (50K jpeg versus 70Megs mt2...).

I should also point out that Wolfgang Winne used a personal preset on the A1. The default settings or another, differently tweaked, preset may give different results.

Are those the kind of comparison you were interested in? I am still not very sure what to conclude myself.

I only own an A1 myself. I would be willing to post more data from it if requested, but I can't do the same for a FX7/V1 I do not own. I had the occasion to play with both cameras for an evening before I bought my A1, this is all I know about the FX7.

As far as I know Canon only make native 60Hz versions of their HDV cameras, You then have the option to add 50Hz, so all Canon HDV cameras that'll shoot 50Hz retain the 60Hz frame rates.


I bought my HD-A1 in PAL. It has 50i and 25F modes. It does not have an option to shoot in 60, 30 or 24 modes.

I think you can get it in Canon service centers for a fee.

Here in NTSC land it costs $500.00 to add the other formats to the Canon cameras and it has to be sent in to a service center to add the modes.

nice thank you all for your input

thank you guys for the great comparison shots

What camera are you talking about here, did you ever post the results?


QUOTE=Zsolt Gordos;594192]Just took a very interesting footage last night.

It contains everything that would give a HD cam hard times: intense colors, fire and the entire thing was shot in low light.

The result on my 50" plasma is breathtaking... (used settings advised by Tony), no noise, pitch black blacks, skin tones and details even in low light, kicking colors. Who said this cam had low light issues?? Gain was never above 6dB but sometimes it was even too much.

I will try to put together some short clip this week and post. The image quality knocks socks :)[/QUOTE]

Yes, I posted a link. It is here again:

http://www.esnips.com/web/V1Efootage/

It is only "youtube" quality though. I am looking for a solution where to post bigger files.

Yes, I posted a link. It is here again:

http://www.esnips.com/web/V1Efootage/

It is only "youtube" quality though. I am looking for a solution where to post bigger files.

Give www.blip.tv a look. You can post multiple versions of a file including HD.

Chris

Thanks Chris, I will give it a look.