I have been asking lots of questions on this board, leading up to the purchase of my HD110 and have just one more.

I am curious about the workflow with this camera. I will also be getting new editing gear at the same time as the camera, and I am wondering what workflow is best for editing the footage shot with this camera. I will be using the hard drive recorder with the camera, and if at all posible I would prefer to edit with Avid. I know Avid has problems supporting the MPEG 2 transport files straight from the camera, but I have seen people talking about overcoming this problem by using mpeg streamclip to convert the files, then importing the converted files into Avid.

Could someone please go into more detail with how to do this conversion and importing process with MPEG Streamclip, and does this process work for 24p footage as well? I would prefer to be able to edit on a native 24p timeline if at alll possible.

I have been asking lots of questions on this board, leading up to the purchase of my HD110 and have just one more.

I am curious about the workflow with this camera. I will also be getting new editing gear at the same time as the camera, and I am wondering what workflow is best for editing the footage shot with this camera. I will be using the hard drive recorder with the camera, and if at all posible I would prefer to edit with Avid. I know Avid has problems supporting the MPEG 2 transport files straight from the camera, but I have seen people talking about overcoming this problem by using mpeg streamclip to convert the files, then importing the converted files into Avid.

Could someone please go into more detail with how to do this conversion and importing process with MPEG Streamclip, and does this process work for 24p footage as well? I would prefer to be able to edit on a native 24p timeline if at alll possible.

Hi Adam,

There are a number of ways you can capture the .m2t tape footage outside of the Avid. One way is with a freeware capture program called Capt DVHS. To download, go here: http://www.yamabe.org/index.html

You can also use other NLE's like Avid's Liquid Series, Vegas Video, Adobe Premier, or Canopus Edius to reliably capture .m2t tapes with. Once captured as a .m2t file, you can then import the files directly into an Avid bin, using Avid's import tool.

If you are using a HDD recorder on your camera, like the DR-HD100, then you can just import into the Avid right off of the drive. This seems to be the easiest way to get the HDV1 footage into the Avid world.

My advice would be use another NLE if you can - especially if you want to shoot 24, 25 or 50 or 60 fps. As you probably know AXPro/MC/Symph only support 30fps and they do that very badly indeed.

Since running into exactly this problem, I have acquired Edius and Liquid as alternatives. IMHO, Liquid is the most useful solution. Support is fantastic for HDV1 and it also makes a good capture/transcode utility for creating DNx files for import into your Avid HD project, if you really insist on using Avid.

Avid is about 15 months late delivering on its iniitial promise to deliver HDV1 24 and 25fps so I wouldn't hold your breath.

Avid Xpress/Media Composer can work using the MPEG STREAMCLIP (free software) method transcoding each .m2t to DNxHD.

Currently, as Anthony said, only 30P .m2t can be directed imported into Avid. The problems usually occur when trying to go back out to tape.

Avid says after the new year, but again as stated above, I wouldn't hold your breath either. Avid's main concern right now is getting their systems Intel Mac compatible.

My advice would be use another NLE if you can - especially if you want to shoot 24, 25 or 50 or 60 fps. As you probably know AXPro/MC/Symph only support 30fps and they do that very badly indeed.

Since running into exactly this problem, I have acquired Edius and Liquid as alternatives. IMHO, Liquid is the most useful solution. Support is fantastic for HDV1 and it also makes a good capture/transcode utility for creating DNx files for import into your Avid HD project, if you really insist on using Avid.

Avid is about 15 months late delivering on its iniitial promise to deliver HDV1 24 and 25fps so I wouldn't hold your breath.

The method Anthony describes here I have heard of other people doing successfully. Think of using Liquid as your capture tool and rought edit tool. Then export the Liquid timeline as a DNx file. Import the file into AXPro/MC/Symp, and do your finish work. Output to another HD tape or disk format for distribution.

Don't plan on printing back to HDV tape out of Avid - it does not work reliably yet. If you need to do that, just stay in the Liquid NLE system.

Don't plan on printing back to HDV tape out of Avid - it does not work reliably yet. If you need to do that, just stay in the Liquid NLE system.
Actually, after some initial problems, I managed to get the "Export to HDV Device" to work quite well. Since it's not very well documented I suspect that some people just cannot figure it out (it took me a very long time, trust me).

Anyway, here it is (NTSC world experience):

1. When your HDV (DNx) sequence is finished, add at least 10 seconds of black at the beginning and some more (I usually do at least 20 sec) at the end.
2. Make sure your HDV device is connected directly via FW to Avid and recognised by it (try machine control and if it's operational you are good to go). It has to be turned on and have enough power to stay on (if it's the camera it is best to connect it to the wall plug, also, make sure the camera is in VTR mode)
3. Use "Export to HDV Device" command. Select "Create New Transport Stream" and hit OK.
4. Go for a coffee - it could be a long haul, depending on the length of your sequence. (a 7-min project took some 35-40 minutes)
5. When all is done, Avid will record the program to tape. I had very bad experience with Panasonic 'Master' tapes, so I switched to SONY HDV tapes and all is good.

Done. Now you have a m2t file sitting on your computer and this process can be easily repeated. All that you need to do is to go to "Export to HDV Device" and this time select "Use Existing File", find it and off you go. The recording to tape begins immediately.

Hope this helps...

I'll tack an AVID XPRESS PRO HD question to this thread (since it directly relates).

Can you convert native HDV footage (M2T files) to the Avid DNx codec? I was under the impression that Avid Xpress Pro HD was using their own codec for HDV editing, but the site says that Avid is editing it natively. Which is it?

Actually, I don't do a rough edit in Liquid and then export. If I want to use AXPro or MC for the cut, I export the captured clips from the Liquid rack (bin) and then import into Avid. I would only make a sequence of any of the clips first in Liquid if I wanted to apply proper scaling algorithms first. I'll only cut in Liquid if I'm going to finish up there.

You can use Avid to offline/online HDV1 24 or 25fps if you manually adjust source TC and reel in Avid from your SD clips imported from Liquid and then export an ALE file back out into Liquid and conform in Liquid. Then you repeat the batch export process, batch import your upscaled 1080P DNx files into the decomposed Avid offline master clips and online in the Avid as normal. This is useful for long form projects where DNx would not be a sensible proposition until online.

Just one more question-

I will be using the Hard Drive recorder with the JVC, not capturing from tape. So if I understand correctly I can use Liquid or MPEG Streamclip to convert the m2t files to avid's dnx codec? Does this same approach allow me to edit 24p in Avid, not just 30p? Or am I still stuck at 30p no matter what when using Avid Xpress Pro?

Can you convert native HDV footage (M2T files) to the Avid DNx codec? I was under the impression that Avid Xpress Pro HD was using their own codec for HDV editing, but the site says that Avid is editing it natively. Which is it?
You can edit HDV natively, mixed in with any resolution (hurrah for Open Timeline), but most recommend transcoding to DNxHD and cutting with that instead. Native HDV editing just isn't that great an idea regardless of your NLE - GOP compression is just not suitable for editing. You really need a codec that has every frame, such as DNxHD.

But yes, you can do it, and even have Avid render any effects to DNxHD instead of HDV.

Just one more question-

I will be using the Hard Drive recorder with the JVC, not capturing from tape. So if I understand correctly I can use Liquid or MPEG Streamclip to convert the m2t files to avid's dnx codec? Does this same approach allow me to edit 24p in Avid, not just 30p? Or am I still stuck at 30p no matter what when using Avid Xpress Pro?

You cannot cut 24p HDV1 natively in Xpress Pro but, yes, you can use Liquid and Streamclip to convert to DNx which you can then import to a 24p project.

You can edit HDV natively, mixed in with any resolution (hurrah for Open Timeline), but most recommend transcoding to DNxHD and cutting with that instead. Native HDV editing just isn't that great an idea regardless of your NLE - GOP compression is just not suitable for editing. You really need a codec that has every frame, such as DNxHD.

But yes, you can do it, and even have Avid render any effects to DNxHD instead of HDV.

Yes, DNx works better than native HDV1 in Avid for many reasons BUT the issue here is that you can only ingest and edit HDV1 720p/30 natively in Xpress Pro, Media Composer and Symphony Nitris. For other frame rates, you need to capture (or import if it's not acquired to tape) and then transcode to a format that the traditional Avid software family does support. Since there are project types for 720p/24 and 1080p/24 you can transcode to either DNx flavour to import and then edit in the Avid. Since there is no 720p/25 or 50 project type as yet, you only have the option of 1080p/25 or 1080i/50 (25PsF) if you shoot at 25fps.

I repeat, 24fps and 25fps HDV1 are not natively supported for capture or import in Xpress Pro, Media Composer or Symphony Nitris. For these frame rates you must capture/import and transcode in another application before importing into the available project types within Avid.

This may seem crazy some 18 months after the HD100 was launched but it is - unfortunately - true.

Yes, DNx works better than native HDV1 in Avid for many reasons BUT the issue here is that you can only ingest and edit HDV1 720p/30 natively in Xpress Pro...
Er yeah, sorry I jumped out of context a little bit ;)
This may seem crazy some 18 months after the HD100 was launched but it is - unfortunately - true.
Indeed. The last official word on release date was "Q4 2006" which is quickly coming to a close. Many of us have been harassing the arse off Avid over at their forums - finally got a response from an Avid rep, looks like we'll be getting some kind of solid answer within a day or so (insert muffled laughter here).

Native HDV editing just isn't that great an idea regardless of your NLE -- GOP compression is just not suitable for editing.

That's sooo untrue. I've been editing HDV natively in every NLE and doing so from the first day HDV arrived in the USA years ago. It's Avid's non-Liquid products that have a problem -- not native editing itself. You simply keep the myth alive with unsupported comments like this.

Yes, DNx works better than native HDV1 in Avid for many reasons BUT the issue here is that you can only ingest and edit HDV1 720p/30 natively in Xpress Pro, Media Composer and Symphony Nitris.
Tony, I am pretty sure that you can transcode HDV1 to DNxHD after ingest and then edit in DNx - although, unless one is doing serious compositing or coulour correction, there is little benefit to this fairly rime-consuming precess. I guess the one thing that works better with DNx is that QT reference export could be used (although, I haven't found a setting that would deliver satisfactory quality for SD DVD).

It's Avid's non-Liquid products that have a problem -- not native editing itself.
Not exactly true either...

As far as I can tell from my own experience, Avid's problem with HDV1 is machine control, export settings and mainly ingest. JVC and Avid don't play nicely together, which makes it a real pain to deal with the format. If, however, you manage to capture the footage (and yes, I am only talking about 720p30 here) then editing natively is no problem at all. In fact, there is virtually no difference between HDV1 and DV. All effects that are RT in DV are also RT in HDV1.

That's sooo untrue. I've been editing HDV natively in every NLE and doing so from the first day HDV arrived in the USA years ago. It's Avid's non-Liquid products that have a problem -- not native editing itself. You simply keep the myth alive with unsupported comments like this.
Wouldn't know, haven't spent any time cutting HDV myself (thanks to Avid being slack). But I've heard plenty of editors say they don't bother trying to cut natively in HDV, performance just isn't anywhere near the level of a per-frame codec.

What's your workflow in Avid for HDV? Do you just stay HDV all the way or do you use DNxHD at some point?

Wouldn't know, haven't spent any time cutting HDV myself (thanks to Avid being slack). But I've heard plenty of editors say they don't bother trying to cut natively in HDV, performance just isn't anywhere near the level of a per-frame codec.

What's your workflow in Avid for HDV? Do you just stay HDV all the way or do you use DNxHD at some point?

If you are around Avid editors, a huge number of them seem to run on very old equipment. This is unlike FCP users who typically upgrade to the fastest Macs because they don't spend $5000 for a software NLE that's still not current with all HD format's and doesn't support AJA and BM boards. :)

I too have avoided Avid -- except for Liquid which is a great native HDV editor -- especially on a MBP 2. Avid is so far behind I wonder if they'll ever get caught-up. Like still no dual core support! No ATI support.

Tony, I am pretty sure that you can transcode HDV1 to DNxHD after ingest and then edit in DNx - although, unless one is doing serious compositing or coulour correction, there is little benefit to this fairly rime-consuming precess. I guess the one thing that works better with DNx is that QT reference export could be used (although, I haven't found a setting that would deliver satisfactory quality for SD DVD).

Hi Jiri

Yes, of course you can transcode native HDV1 to DNx after ingest but ONLY at 720p.30. My point was purely that there is no native support for HDV1 at 24, 25, 50 or 60 fps in Avid's traditional products. If you can't get into Avid, you can't transcode it in Avid!

If you are around Avid editors, a huge number of them seem to run on very old equipment. This is unlike FCP users who typically upgrade to the fastest Macs because they don't spend $5000 for a software NLE that's still not current with all HD format's and doesn't support AJA and BM boards. :)

I too have avoided Avid -- except for Liquid which is a great native HDV editor -- especially on a MBP 2. Avid is so far behind I wonder if they'll ever get caught-up. Like still no dual core support! No ATI support.

I'll second every aspect of this. It is incredibly frustrating that Avid is now lagging so far behind even low-end competition in terms of I/O flexibility, format support and in terms of code base sophistication. It is particularly frustrating to me because I find that the basic cutting (NOT effects) interface is still way ahead of most of the competition and - for better or worse - as good as all facilities here in the UK are Avid-based. What this means to our company is that we are practically forced to continue using Avid.

The second biggest frustration is that Avid have now inherited the Fast interface, otherwise known as Liquid. I had high hopes for this software back in the day and now I'm extremely upset that it's been taken over by the Avid team. A bit of non-FCP competition at the middle level would have been great. Maybe Canopus/GVG can force their way in there...

Hi Jiri

Yes, of course you can transcode native HDV1 to DNx after ingest but ONLY at 720p.30. My point was purely that there is no native support for HDV1 at 24, 25, 50 or 60 fps in Avid's traditional products. If you can't get into Avid, you can't transcode it in Avid!

Yes, but you can transcode out of Avid to DNxHD as you stated earlier.

Also, the myth about HDV editing being a problem is also simply that. HDV editing, especially at 720P, is very close to DV. If you are running any G5 or better, or similar on the PC side, you should be editing almost like DV. The only time it gets annoying on my Powerbook G4 are when effects are applied.

I work with HDV1 (Prohd) and Avid since a year now. I capture and export to tape fine, with no major problems. Real time is even better than in DV.
Lately with the 5.6.1, 5.6.3 updates and QT 7, I have realized that the program became very buggy.
I have problems to export m2t, with many error messages, buffer problems, sound problems, corrupted media, etc, almost with every project.
A week ago I wanted to import a 34min. m2t, that was exported originally by my avid with lots of trouble, but it stopped at 24min. every time I tried.
Has been impossible to import it since then.
I re-captured it, as I had it printed to tape, in a new 720p proj., re-exported it again as m2t and it has been impossible ever after to re-import it in the project. Stops at 24min. exactly same frame. I re-captured, re-edited,
re-exported, same problem again and again. The reason I wanted to change the spelling of a title.
This is a new thing and I wonder if someone can give me some advise for it.
The Avid forum ignored my question...
With the 5.2.1 - 5.2.2 version I could re-import longer m2ts with no problem. Is this some kind of quota or just a new bug? Bugs... with Avid...?
Thanks
Panos

The Avid forum ignored my question...
Funny, I find that happening quite a bit...they tend to ignore questions that would have to have embarassing answers. Like, "oh sorry, Avid cannot do that right now (eventhough far cheaper and 'less professional' software can)." It's like beating a dead horse...extremely frustrating!

That's for sure. The other problem is that many people on the Xpress Pro forum really aren't that experienced with Avid and the MC and Symph guys who are much more likely to be seasoned professionals just steer clear. If you have a problem with a feature that is common to MC (most are) I think it's best to post on the MC board.

Also, the Avid boards suffer from the usual Avid snobbery. A lot of these guys work in facilities or environments where non-linear editing is quite simply synonymous with Avid, so they have no experience with other systems or anything to compare Avid with. The exception is some of the Americans, who might have come into contact with FCP in a professional context.

I would also add that - while Avid can work with native HDV on faster machines quite well - the experience is so much more slick on Liquid or Edius. Also, the entire Avid code base and system architecture is a legacy that does not lend itself at all well to the rapidly expanding range of HD formats. Personally, I find the whole 'Open Timeline' thing a bit of a joke because in many ways it's just Avid's way of masking the deficiencies inherent to the product. But that's not to say that the grass is always greener. In general, given an open choice, I'd take Avid over FCP any day.

That's for sure. The other problem is that many people on the Xpress Pro forum really aren't that experienced with Avid and the MC and Symph guys who are much more likely to be seasoned professionals just steer clear. If you have a problem with a feature that is common to MC (most are) I think it's best to post on the MC board.

Also, the Avid boards suffer from the usual Avid snobbery. A lot of these guys work in facilities or environments where non-linear editing is quite simply synonymous with Avid, so they have no experience with other systems or anything to compare Avid with. The exception is some of the Americans, who might have come into contact with FCP in a professional context.

I would also add that - while Avid can work with native HDV on faster machines quite well - the experience is so much more slick on Liquid or Edius. Also, the entire Avid code base and system architecture is a legacy that does not lend itself at all well to the rapidly expanding range of HD formats. Personally, I find the whole 'Open Timeline' thing a bit of a joke because in many ways it's just Avid's way of masking the deficiencies inherent to the product. But that's not to say that the grass is always greener. In general, given an open choice, I'd take Avid over FCP any day.

But why cannot import an m2t dur. 34 min in my avid project? And what is this stoping always at 24min even if it is originated from a different export... So no possibility of the same corrupted frame. Happens on the 5.6.1 5.6.3 with QT 7.1.
Before with the 5.51, 5.52 there was no problem.
Does someone have any idea? Is it a new quota...
Merry Christmas anyway to all of you and happy-lucky and with 25p support from Avid 2007.
Panos