I'm looking for a digital still camera that can capture at 3 or 4 fps, continuous shooting without any lapse for 1000 or more frames. I developed a technique with an old 35mm SLR but would like to expand it as 36 frames is very limiting.

I can't find any info yet on if tethered DSLRs can capture in continuous shooting mode via remote control or only to flash mem. I don't need auto-focus or exposure nor image preview while shooting (but do need an optical viewfinder for framing. Need to be at least 3000 X 2000 pixel images. JPEG okay but RAW better.

You can see this 10 second short I did using ONLY still images + After Effects w/ Twixtor here:

http://www.sv2studios.com/clients/testing/cyf.wmv.

Any ideas?

Stephen,

I didn't try what you are suggesting so I can't say for sure. But here are my thoughts anyway.

Firstly, the camera must allow you to take pictures without a flah card inserted, otherwise you would be restricted by the speed of the flash card and the size of the camera buffer memory. All my Canons can do that. Then it depends on the connection to the laptop (USB2, firewire or WLAN) and the hard drive of the laptop. Let's assume about 8 MByte per RAW frame, then we have a data rate of 24 MByte/sec (at 3 frames per second). I don't think the average hard drive would be able to handle such a data rate (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong). However, if you shoot JPGs at, let's say, 1.5 MByte per frame, you have about 4.5 MByte/sec (at 3 frames per second). This is about the data rate of DV and that should be no problem (assuming that the average frame is indeed only 1.5 MByte)

However, you could run into thermal problems. After all, a DSLR is not designed for 1000 frames at the max. frame rate. One of my 20D bodies had a serious thermal problem after about 25 to 30 frames. It just quit working and I had to wait about 15 minutes before it would work again. But since this happened with one body only, it was probably a malfunction. Anyway, I think you should be prepared.

Nice video, but unfortunately you're gonna be limited by the speed/size of the memory card and the buffer of the camera. I have a D200 and even with Extreme III cards in JPEG, the camera starts to bog down after 25-30frames. This is due to the speed of the camera writing to the card, and the only way to get what you're looking for is with a camera that doesn't exist yet with a much larger buffer and a faster processor that can write the images to the card faster. Also you'd probably need a 16GB Extreme IV card or something to store that many images depending on the resolution.

But honestly by the time you get the camera and card that meets those needs, you might as well have bought a nice fluid head tripod and HD camera to shoot the exact same video with less hard work.

Stephen,

This is about the data rate of DV and that should be no problem (assuming that the average frame is indeed only 1.5 MByte)

Yeah, I'm aware JPEG data rates are much more cosy, but I have RAID 0 drives that support about 50 Mb/s and since you don't need a perfectly steady rate - RAW still might work.


However, you could run into thermal problems.

That's possible, especially longer takes, but since I see several cams out there designed to shoot either video or continuous "until card is full" I assume there are cameras without thermal issues.

Nice video, but unfortunately you're gonna be limited by the speed/size of the memory card and the buffer of the camera.


I'm very aware of that - thus that's why I posted looked for cams that might shoot tethered to a computer.




But honestly by the time you get the camera and card that meets those needs, you might as well have bought a nice fluid head tripod and HD camera to shoot the exact same video with less hard work.

But it won't shoot anything like "the exact same video". HD is 1920X180 or 1280X720 pixels, usually very compressed unless you get a camera with 4:4:4 uncompressed and still, 3 CCD video stills are pretty low quality compared to DSLR stills.

Plus, I'm waiting at least 2K but preferably 4K resolution not HD rez. Right now, those motion camera are over $100,000 and some approach 7 figures. The RED camera would do it, but that's $20k without lenses and still in development.

Finally, turning 4 fps into 24 fps gives a certain unrealistic look/feel - a dreamy, unusual quality due to the lack of registrations (though digital may even that ought). It's this looks of 4fps turned into 24fps that I like. You could sort of create it in post from 24fps footage, but you would need 4K 24fps footage which brings us back to my solution.

Since you're probably on a budget, try landing a used Nikon D2H for somewhere in the $1000-1500. It delivers a 4 MPixel image at 8 frames/second into a 40 image buffer (JPEG) . Nikon Capture software does control the camera remotely, but I haven't tried it myself. So, I'm not sure you can sustain 8fps into your computer, but this is a good path to check out. You can also program the frame rate.

Nikon Capture software does control the camera remotely, but I haven't tried it myself. So, I'm not sure you can sustain 8fps into your computer, but this is a good path to check out. You can also program the frame rate.

That's the big question - does it sustain even 4fps into the computer. I would really like to know before dropping $1000 or more.

But it won't shoot anything like "the exact same video". HD is 1920X180 or 1280X720 pixels, usually very compressed unless you get a camera with 4:4:4 uncompressed and still, 3 CCD video stills are pretty low quality compared to DSLR stills.

Are you outputting to film or another super-high rez format? I tried hooking my D200 directly to my macbook pro, then i realized Nikon hasn't shipped intel drivers yet so I can't test it out for you...anyone else on here wanna try this out for Steve?

Are you outputting to film or another super-high rez format? I tried hooking my D200 directly to my macbook pro, then i realized Nikon hasn't shipped intel drivers yet so I can't test it out for you...anyone else on here wanna try this out for Steve?

I'm working on high rez (4K) digital film called "Outside In" (www.outsidefilms.org). If someone can actually test this out, I will include them in the credits, copy of film and two tickets to a premiere.

Stephen, I'll give it a try this afternoon (Central European Time). I'll use my 20D and a notebook, but probably I'll limit the test to 100 frames or so.

I'll keep you posted.

Sorry Stephen, I can't test it at the moment because my EOS capture software does not start for some %$§?&% reason (I haven't used it for eons). I uninstalled and installed it twice but it just won't work. As soon as I have solved the problem, I'll try to shoot a few dozen pics.

Sorry for the delay.

Sorry Stephen, I can't test it at the moment because my EOS capture software does not start for some %$§?&% reason (I haven't used it for eons). I uninstalled and installed it twice but it just won't work. As soon as I have solved the problem, I'll try to shoot a few dozen pics.

Sorry for the delay.

Thanks so much for you help! I hope it's not a serious problem.

Stephen,

I solved the problem with the capture software. Obviously I had updated it some time ago but didn't update the firmware of the 20D. So I just used the EOS 5D.

Here we go: I fired about 150 frames (JPEG, average file size 2.4 MB) at 3 fps. It worked without problems, all 150 frames were stored on the laptops harddrive. No problems whatsoever. However, I had to remove the CF card. If the CF card remains in the camera, the camera attempts to write the data on the CF card and the hard drive at the same time and you are then limited by the size of the internal buffer.

So there only remains the overheating issue. If it is an issue at all. I really didn't want to put this to a test.

So, when you choose a camera for your work, make sure, that the camera allows shooting without a CF card inserted.

Please keep us informed about your future work. I would really like to know about this thermal problem that I anticipate.

Stephen,

I solved the problem with the capture software. Obviously I had updated it some time ago but didn't update the firmware of the 20D. So I just used the EOS 5D.

Here we go: I fired about 150 frames (JPEG, average file size 2.4 MB) at 3 fps. It worked without problems, all 150 frames were stored on the laptops harddrive. No problems whatsoever. However, I had to remove the CF card. If the CF card remains in the camera, the camera attempts to write the data on the CF card and the hard drive at the same time and you are then limited by the size of the internal buffer.

So there only remains the overheating issue. If it is an issue at all. I really didn't want to put this to a test.

So, when you choose a camera for your work, make sure, that the camera allows shooting without a CF card inserted.

Please keep us informed about your future work. I would really like to know about this thermal problem that I anticipate.

Thanks so much for the information - that's very encouraging.

I also am still worried enough about the overheating issue since I calculated I will need 9 -10 ten minute takes. At 3 fps that's 18,000 images and I have two actors, so that 36,000. I had not really considered the thermal issues when coming up with this idea.

I'm not sure how to test the thermal without potentially ruining a camera - I don't know if they shutdown automatically or not.

I may have to break down and shoot 1080p 4:4:4 uncompressed and uprez the footage (double) though I'm worried how good that will look.

PS. If you send me your complete info offline (my contact info is at sv2studios.com or outsideinfilms.org), I will be sure to include you in the credits and keep you updated on the film. I hope it will tour Germany when released...

PS. If you send me your complete info offline (my contact info is at sv2studios.com or outsideinfilms.org), I will be sure to include you in the credits and keep you updated on the film. I hope it will tour Germany when released...


Hey, I guess this is the first time ever my name will be in the credits of a movie. Swell!

One more thought: some people reported problems with the shutter of their EOS 20D after 20.000 to 25.000 frames. So you will probably need a camera with a very robust shutter like a 1D or D2X.

I would suggest a high end point and shoot with an electronic shutter. I'd be as worried about wrecking my shutter and mirror than thermal issues. Maybe mirror lock up would help?
Andy

I would suggest a high end point and shoot with an electronic shutter. I'd be as worried about wrecking my shutter and mirror than thermal issues. Maybe mirror lock up would help?
Andy

That's valid as well. I'm leaning to shooting 1080p 4:4:4 and uprezzing because of shutter and thermal issues.

Stephen -- I've followed some of your previous threads on experiments with "slow shoot/speed-up post" and I really admire your experimentation and innovation.

The business about DSLR shutters failing after around 20,000+ frames (depending on camera make and model) is a well-known concern with the people who have adopted them for animation film making. They consider these camera bodies to be "consumables" on a film because of it (at least with a DSLR you get to keep the lens!).

If you are heading toward using a laptop/tethered camera combo have you considered using a box camera? I'm experimenting with a Sumix (for conventional 24 or 25 fps film making, though obviously setting slower film speeds would be easier for you to achieve). The M73 is a 3 mgp camera and the max frame size is 2048 x 1536; I'm not sure what this max frame size filming speed would be, but certainly higher than 4 fps (shooting 8-bit Bayer uncompressed to RAM to solve HDD speed limitations). An example from my tests: a 1.85:1 widescreen frame of 2000 x 1080 x 18 fps produces 560 frames in 2 GB of RAM (if you were shooting 4 fps what's that, about 2 1/2 minutes per shot?). The actual width should be 1998 but ROI figures need to be divisible by 8, so you can crop 2 pixels from the width later in post. You can also shoot RGB to the HDD but I don't know anything about that, I'm just shooting Bayer to RAM. The cameras use rolling shutter, usually a problem for big frames, but your images get distorted in Twixtor anyway so perhaps not a problem for you.

I think Sumix make a large camera (might be 6 mgp, I can't remember) which would be too slow for normal filming but might be just up your street for large frames and slow fps filming speeds. Don't know anything about prices, but hopefully would be less than a "disposable" DSLR. Checkout their website.

The decision of whether to shoot 2k or 4k is quite important; the size hike is significant. Here are some figures for your consideration. The Digital Cinema Initiatives (CDI) frame sizes for widescreen and CinemaScope are:

2k 1.85:1 = 1998 x 1080.
4k 1.85:1 = 3996 x 2160.
2k 2.39:1 = 2048 x 858.
4k 2.39:1 = 4096 x 1714.

I plan on shooting a reasonable frame size which will be expanded later. My output would be a tiff sequence and a Photoshop action will expand them to final size. The Photoshop algorithm for their bicubic engine is pretty good with expansions in this size range. You can also try specialist Photoshop plugins like S-Spline or Genuine Fractals (please check that these plug-ins can be actioned in Photoshop or have automation themselves, otherwise you might end up having to expand every frame yourself).

All the best,
very interesting project from you as usual,
John.

Stephen -- I've followed some of your previous threads on experiments with "slow shoot/speed-up post" and I really admire your experimentation and innovation.

Thanks John - all my "experimentation and innovation" is either keeping my braincells exercised or frying them way before their time.

I appreciate your thoughts. I do think the thermal and shutter issue is going to kill the DSLR idea especially since I have decided to do 10 actors instead of 2 and with the number of images is approaching 150,000.

I had thought of a box camera but not done any research. I will investigate the Sumix - sound interesting. I do have PhotoZoom Pro 2 which batch uprezzes - I agree batch is a must for my kind of crazy work.

Of course, I may end us shooting one way for the fundraising trailer and then when shooting see if I can interest RED in loaning us a camera. I sure they have bazillions of requests but probably not bazillions of people both creating native 4k and projecting native 4K...

Per final size, the 2k vs. 4k decision depends on what kinds of inside images I can get from JPL/NASA. Some of the public images are too low rez though I have a good chunk that are large enough.

Either way, it will end up as 16:9 4k to match the Sony SXRD 4k projectors native rez. (3940 X 2160). But because all of the film is 1000's of composited still layers in 3D space, I don't have to get exactly that rez, just "enough" when camera flies by to keep image sharp.

ok well i hope im understanding this thread properly..

but are you trying to capture a very large amount of frames on to one single thing

i know its not the digital route but why dont you try and buy bulk film...

you can buy rools of film and then normally you cut it up into the ammounts of frames that you want...

i have an EOS 1 taht takes 5fps and shoots up 1/2000th

ive played with it with no film and if you hold the button down itll keep on shooting until you dton want to anymore...

youd ahve to get the film processed and then scanned to disc to get it on a computer but maybe somethingt o conciedr

if im way off disregard this post

MEKHAEL

Pretty much.

1/2000 means it's leaving the shutter open for a 2000th of a second, the amount of light let in.

What you need is the FPS, the speed of the frame advance. On most modern SLR cameras, the max is 2 to 4 frames per second, before filling up. The fastest, ebing the Caonon EOS 1D MarkII, at 9 FPS. The Canon EOS 1VHS (the most advanced film model I've used) has 10 FPS, because all it has to do keep pulling film. It's the equivalant of doing a 10FPS movie, which compared to NTSC standards of 30 frames per second, will be stuttery, although would be good for stop-motion photography (showing fast action, step by step).

I've never shot 18000 on the trot, but I know the 20d will do what you require given a fast enough connection to the computer. The 5d should also.

With regards to thermal issues, I shoot quite often in Hawaii and England (pretty much opposing ends of the spectrum) and haven't ever had any thermal issues (including after leaving the 10d on the cars dashboard in Maui) although they do work better when they aren't bashed about. One issue you may notice is that even if the camera doesn't cut out from heat you would get increased noise the hotter the chip gets. If you can just point an a\c unit at it (from a sensible range) and ensure humidity isn't too high.

With respect to shutter life, my 10d has taken circa 80k images in 4-5 years so while shutter life can be an issue it does vary a lot. You should see 50-100k without an issue from all mid to high range dslr's. I can't speak for the xxxd series or even the impending xxxxd series, but everything above that should deliver an acceptable shutter life and you can have shutters refurbed for far less then the cost of a new unit.

I couldn't give you specs for nikons, they are great cameras but Ive always used canon.

Hi there Stephen

First off, I am not sure as to the exact resolution you would be looking at, and your aspect ratios... But then I am new to video, but I am a pro still-photographer.

So here is my 2c worth...

(Pardon if I just try and dispel some issues in some posts here, along the way)

If I summise correctly, you will be looking at RAW images taken with a camera (still) at 3-4 fps with a 4k+ resolution at a (close to) APS-C sensor size, which should be able to take 150k photos continuesly. The images captured onto HDD, and I suppose then pulled into your NLE (after RAW processing) in either TIF or PNG format.

If I am correct in this, then I would recommend a Canon EOS 1D Mark II or the newer Mark IIn.

This camera has a slightly larger sensor than APS-C (1.3x crop from 35mm) with 8.2MP resolution at a near framerate of 8.5 fps.
It is true that some 'consumer' rated cameras, like the Canon EOS 20D's shutter is only benchmarked at about 50k exposures, and will then supposedly die on you.
This is not a given though... I am on 107k+, and mine is still going.

BUT, the EOS 1D II, is rated at 250k exposures, and mine has done more than that. (Some of that for your experiment)

I coupled my 1D IIn to my PC (I also run stripe arrays on my 4x 300GB HDDs) and did some testing. Although not near your mark of 100k. I took 250+ photos in RAW (almost 11MB per frame) at 8+fps (only lasted about 30") of a simple scene @ 100 ISO in manual mode.
The scene was well lit, and there was no real movement on the focus plain, i.e. no real focus hunting necessary.
I did this test both in single-shot and Al-Servo (predictive AF) modes.

All I can say is this:
"I got tired (mostly bored) before the camera did. I felt no heat from the camera after both takes. I even opened the camera and popped the mirror (ala lens cleaning mode) and felt absolutely no heat generated from either the shutter, or any circuitry. I inserted a CF card, kept it in for about 10", and removed it, and it felt cold to the touch."

I do not know the purpose of the imagery, nor the content of your shoot, but I would recommend some fast lenses, and using a camera with a very good AF system.
I do think that most sport shooters out there would agree, that the white lenses probably wins this battle hands down.

I would however NOT recommend doing this type project full frame (like Richard suggested) with a 5D, or even the 1Ds II.
Firstly, it is a hell of a lot of data to deal with. Better IQ yes, but too much for a 4k production. Definite overkill comes to mind.
Secondly, the crop factor helps getting 'cheaper' glass closer. Very fast (AF wise) lenses from Canon is the 70-200 f/2.8, or even the f/4 if you can live with that DOF. The Image Stabilization part is almost 2x the price, and if you are mounting the cam, you will have to turn off the IS in any case.

If you are looking into fast primes (again I am referring to AF speed here) the 35 f/1.4L, 50 1.4, 85 1.8, 100 f/2, 135 f/2L.
(Both the 50mm and 85mm have bigger brothers in the L series, and both are brand-spanking-new to the line-up... BUT, I do find the AF speed on the 85 non-L still faster than the new L --- has a lot less glass to move around --- and for the 50mm, well the AF speeds are about the same, but the lens is insanely priced, and frankly I do not see much difference on stills I can look at the whole day. For 'moving pictures' ???

As for getting a Nikon D2H (or any other 2nd hand D-SLR for that matter) you will never know how many actuations the shutter has made. And yes, like a car, you can wind the mileage down.

Now I do not know your budget (but listening at what you want to do) will probably pay out better in the long run to shoot with something new, is dependable, and you know you could get replacements for if needed.

(If you intend something like was done for the stills used in the action scenes for The Matrix, those were done with 'consumer' cameras - Canon EOS 50's I think it was.)


Good luck with the project. If you need any more advice (even just some feedback) drop me a pm.

Kind regards
Jacques

Good luck with the project. If you need any more advice (even just some feedback) drop me a pm.

Kind regards
Jacques

Thanks for the detailed info. That's exactly the info I was looking for in a test.

I just did a test shoot a couple of weeks ago with a rented D200 and found several issues. The D200 cuts off at 100 shots and only makes that many in JPG (going to card - D200 would not couple with PC for continuous shooting) but it did get 4fps for 30 or so seconds.

I shot around 1000 frames at 4 fps and 8-9 fps would be much better. 30 second takes would be perfect for my needs. The D200 (which did not have a cable or remote release) jumped around but a cable release should solve the issue.

I'm just working on a budget for the film and your info is very timely. Thanks again. Send me your full info and I will include you in the credits, tickets to a premiere (I would love to show it Jo'burg - I was born there, just down the road from you). PMs are disabled here but you can reach me at www.sv2studios.com or www.outsideinfilms.org

thanks again!