I'm thinking about buying a Sony MZ-N707 and I have a number of questions. I gather that the software it comes with is incompatible with Macintosh. Are there other ways to manage files and upload tracks to my G4? Also, is there a way to transfer the files digitally? If not, how much sound quality would I be giving up by doing it analog? This last issue seems like a real bummer if there isn't a way.
I know it has a manual audio setting, so does that mean I can turn off the internal preamp and use a separate preamp? Does the LCD meter work well?
One last thing. I've read that the Sony MZ-N1 has a mike sensitivity setting. Is this feature worth the extra money and what is it?

Manual level control on a MiniDisc recorder is definitely worth having.

Can't speak to Macs or the Sony models you are considering, but I often usually use a digital SP/DIF connections to transfer data from MiniDisc to my PC. However, many MiniDisc portables do not support SP/DIF output. I've also used analog input to a sound card to capture audio. The main issue here will be the quality of your sound card/audio capture device. Some are very muuch better than others.

I bought one of the Sony units for my wife, prof. violinist, to replace her walkman pro cassette for recording rehersals. The manual control works, but it's not adjustable to a fine degree.

Audio upload/download is not supported for the mac at all. There is a guy working on software for OS X. (see http://www.sorted.org/Xmd) but it's not clear if this will ever support downloads. It's a complicated issue.

Bottom line is that this unit just is not designed for second sound applications at a pro or semi-pro level -- so the preamp issues etc. were not at the top of the engineer's list of things to do.

If you want professional features one has to pay a professional price, unfortunately. I use a HHB Portadisc that has XLR in, phantom power, decent level adjust, built-in USB out, and all the rest of it plus rugged. It's about 7 times the cost of the Sony.

BTW there is a good article on second sound editing workflow with FCP at

http://www.lafcpug.org/editing_double_sound.html.

Gives some idea about range of issues related to your choice. As the article suggests, if you are going to do a lot of second sound work reliable, quick download is a must.

Thanks Don and Peter. I've heard good things about the Portadisc, but in that price range, DAT machines start to look attractive. I'm mainly looking to record backup audio tracks. I know two people locally who have had their entire shoots ruined by audio snafus! One of them was a feature length film. Peter, in the end, did you and your wife find the audio with the Sony decent for your application? Could I use a preamp with it? Excellent FinalCut link by the way. I've bookmarked it.

In theory there is no reason why one couldn't use a preamp with the right adapters, but it might not be so simple.

What kind of mic(s) would you be using? What kind of preamp?

Sennheiser ME-66 and a SoundDevices MM-1. I also have an Audio-Technica inline attenuator that is adjustable in 10 db increments up to 30, which I'm hoping will add some flexibility.

There are (or at least were last time I looked) professional quality MiniDisc recorders.

Then you would be going from the preamp XLR (balanced) out to a stereo (unbalanced) mini plug -- right? If not recording in stereo or two channels you'd only be using one side of the mini plug. You don't want the open side to 'float' and pick up noise.

The MM-1 is a nice pro preamp that will be +4dBu out. The Sony will be -10dBV in, I think, like most consumer equipment. You may get better results if you go through a matching transformer. (search the the Web for Jay Rose, who writes on audio for DV Magazine and has a good book on audio production for DV -- he goes into this issue in greater detail).

I guess one would set the Sony on manual gain all the way up and then use the preamp for the "real" gain adjustment. I think this might work fine.

Some radio reporters (many of whom use mini disc because it's ideal for radio ENG) I've seen have some kind of adapting cable that goes from XLR to the mini plug. If don't know if the matching is built into the cable or what, but their needs are less demanding.

Wouldn't a Studio 1 work for the adapter? Got one of those two.

Marco check out these sites.
www.minidisc.org
www.soundprofessionals.com
Yes you can use a studio1 xlr box.I own a sony protable RZ-55??? I usually connect an AT stereo mic directly into its mic jack and use the manual audio settings . I have made some excellenct recordings of some small jazz shows etc. this way. i have also used my Mackie 1202 for the preamps to the MD from the main outs (1/4" to RCA w/1/8 adapter)and it worked very well using the MD manual audio level.

I have the same model. The software sucks. It is very limited and beyond that. With the usb you can only import and export songs that were from cd's or mp3. Then if you record you cannot bring it in with the software. Talk about stupid aparently they dont use the same format as they do when encoding the files from the computer. So anything that you record externally with a mic you will have to use some other way to bring it in.
So far I have used the firewire port with a Dazzle HollywoodDV bridge. Works great and the sound is amazing. The only problem I happen to have is the sound is a little quite when I bring it in. I think that might be due to my computer sound settings and my MiniDisc settings.

Good luck.

Rob:D

Thanks much everyone. I took the plunge and a MZ-N10 is speeding its way to me as I write this. It's the updated model. Can't wait.

Is it possible to use too much gain and damage the unit? If so, what kind of range should I be looking at? Also, Robert, could you talk a little more about your setup with Dazzle HollywoodDV bridge? Are you going from the MiniDisk's USB to the bridge and from there into the computer via firewire?

I dont think you will damage the unit but you wil get some very nasty sounding recordings.you r levels should peak @ -12 to be safe.

Wow, that's a fast response. Since the meter is just a line without any numbers, how do I know what I'm peaking at?

Well. I take the headphones out to a RCA connection to the audio in on the DV bridge. Then I just press record in Premiere or whatever the program is. You also have to have a video source going but just not record it. So far it has worked great. My problem was it not coming in loud enough. It came in very clear and clean. I was having problems with my Lav mic until I figured out how to use it...lol.

It has worked great so far. I have used it on two voice over projects so far and they sound amazing.

Rob:D

I had seen the DV bridge in ads. Is this a better method than just plugging into a sound card? What does the bridge do?

well It wouldnt be better but I was reciving some noise off of my sound card to my mini disc so I cant use it as an option (more of bad feedback). Otherwise I would. No real difference as far as voice over goes and I wouldnt think it would be to much of a problem otherwise.


Rob:D

Guys,
Sony doesnt make ANY portable minidiscs that allow digital exporting of material you recorded from a line or mike input. Period. They stopped that feature a couple of years ago. The only work around is a home Minidisc deck with optical or SPDIF outs. There are a few pro Minidisc portables that do, at about 5 times the cost of a 707. Check out the Creative Nomad Jukebox 3 as an alternative. It records WAVs at 44.1 with optical in or 48 with line ins. It allows full exporting of all files. Chris

For what its worth, I just completed a project which used both music and ambient sound recorded on a Sharp MT-15 minidisk with a Sony ECM-MS907 stereo microphone (I've recently added a Vivanco EM216 stereo lapel mike to my arsenal, but haven't used it in the field yet). I transferred the audio to my computer by capturing through my sound card.

The results were excellent and, to my ear, listening over my editing bench monitoring speakers, sounded every bit as good as the audio captured directly by my VX2000. Though the purist in me prefers an all-digital transfer solution, analog capture is clearly more than adequte.

Does the Jukebox support Mac? It doesn't look like it does.

No it doesn't. I would hope since sony started mini disc that they would at least get on the ball and make it useful. From what I can tell they won't do anything to create a program that can import the files through USB. What a shame look at what they could do if they did. I just wonder if there is another app out there that allows for us to use the USB to import these files?

Rob

The only way I can see to do this is to buy the cheapest minidisc deck off of E-bay that I can find that has digital outputs. Go from there to an M-Audio CO3 (http://www.minidisco.com/co3.html) which strips off the copyright protection and from there to an Edirol UA-1D USB connector (http://www.minidisco.com/ua-1d.html).
This seems like an awful lot of trouble and expense, not to mention having to worry about when Sony is going to introduce a new layer of copyright protection. Sony seems so determined to kill off this technology, it makes me hesitant to invest in any minidisc-only related gear. I'm kind of leaning towards loving the format for what it does well (my NZ10 sounds really good!), and putting up with the analog transfer until I can afford to move up to a different technology altogether, like DAT or harddisk. I'm also kind of looking at the ART DIO, which would serve a double function as an analog/digital converter to the minidisk (at least these units have optical in!), as well as ensuring a clean analog transfer to the computer. At some point, I think I would still be able to use it for whatever new technology comes along. It's 24 bit. I like the looks of the SoundDevices USBpre too, but I wish there was a way to power it without the USB. How am I suppose to make a field recording on another media besides a laptop?

I'm very sorry, but the NJ3 is currently PC only. It's a shame, as I love mine. The 20Gig version (smallest) records 48 Khz WAVs for 30 hours. Amazing. Just amazing. It's worth gettin' a $100.00 PC just to upload and burn the waves...

Marco, did you see this post (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8619) I made this morning?

very cool. It is a shame that sony is destroying their own invention. Anyways PDA audio. Sounds like a very good thing. Soon you will be able to record everything on PDA.


Rob:D

Thanks for pointing out the link. I see Mac users get screwed again. Why doesn't that just figure?

I see Mac users get screwed again
Well, sort of. You can remove the CF card and copy the digital files to your HD. I do that with my digital still photos now, and it's not too much of a hassle. The Sharp Zaraus runs Linux and OS X has X11 so, it's only a matter of time until someone wrote a program that would do it directly. It might even be in the works.

Mac users from what I know dont get screwed. It just seems that they dont know they can run windows OS on their computer. A guy where I work has every OS on his G3 laptop so he can troubleshoot anything that comes along. So its just looking into the proper options. I think it is to bad that most mac users don't know they can do that. Otherwise I would think that you would be happy that you have so many options open to you.

Rob:D

Well, I've heard that people have varying degrees of success with emulations. I've yet to hear of anyone who's been able to run Net MD successfully on a Mac, for instance. But, hey, if it works. I'm all for it.

The only software to do the PC emulation on Mac (Virtual PC) was recently purchased by Microsoft and it's future is in question. Several Mac software companies have stepped to the plate, but it may be months before a successor is ready.

This is a tangent, but I noticed a product at that link called the DENECKE AD-20/ZEFIRO INBOX. I've been looking for a good, portable converter to go with my minidisc, MM-1 combo. Does anyone know if this converter is better than what's in the Sonys? I also thought I could also use it if I ever wanted to record to harddisk.

Mini disks are great for listening to music (MP3's kind of thing" making live recordings of lectures, notes, etc. The mini disk is a digital version of the old consumer cassette recorder. Designed for consumer electronic applications at -10db.
All pro audio gear is usually set at +4 -- so when mixing, you have to get a match on impedence and levels. Sounddevices has an excellent article in their support site (www.sounddevices.com) Also they make the USB Pre preamp that allows both audio at -10db and +4db, as well as s/pdif i/o -- I have had very good luck importing audio from both pro and consumer level equipment using the USB Pre. This has excellent Mac dirvers, including OSX, and offeres a good low cost pro solution -- as well as the other dedicated Mac audio solutions (i.e. PCI audio board with DAC/ADC)

The key here is How GOOD do you want your audio to be. Radio stations prev. used audio cassette recorders for their field interviews (I used to do radio interviews and this is what we used due to protability and convience). Once "canned" and broadcast -- with vioce (not music) with a lower dynamic range, you couldn't tell the difference in the analog days -- you can now with the improved digital equipment. A mini disk IS a cassette recorder for all purposes -- the same quality or lack of quality -- and it is NOT the same quality (sampling rate is lower,etc) as a DAT, just like a cassette is not a good as reel-to-reel is). Audio on mini disk and audio from your camera will NOT be the same quality and you will be able to tell the difference -- unless you bring it into a good audio program and tweak it -- then you could get away with it.

Small protable DAT's (better than the mini disk) can be had second hand from online or local area sales boards (like Craigslist in the S.F. bay area). Shop around -- a good piece of used pro gear to do the job is better than a new piece of consumer gear in most cases.

Jay Rose's book and others area available on Viedo Audio applications and how to get the most out of your equipment.
Keep shooting, et all.

Thanks. I've heard repeatedly that I need to match the impedance and levels in order to connect pro and consumer gear, but nobody explains exactly what this means. I know, I know -- I've already ordered the Jay Rose book so I don't have to ask stupid questions likes this -- but in practical terms, can you tell me what this means right now? What do I need to make everything match with the Sony minidisc and MM-1? I'm currently using a -20db inline attenuator and a shure XLR to mini adapter that includes a transformer to plug into the line input on the minidisc. It sounds pretty good to me, but I'm uncertain if this is the right set up exactly.

Check out the Sound Devices site at "www.sounddevices.com/tech/balancing.htm" for an article discission on your question. The pad should take care of thelevel differences and the transformer will isolate your mini disk from the pro-level +4 input to prevent any distoration from impedance mismatch. The transformer should be 10K on the input side and 600 ohms (or there abouts) on the output side. There isn't room on this site to go into details, one of the books recommended previously, will go into more detail. Try your setup and see how it works, first, it sould be o.k. -- but don't expect the same quaility audio you get from your pro-gear. The mini-disk is a backup system and such should work o.k., until you get something better, et all

Thanks again. I'll get started on all of this reading.

From what I've heard you can get audio on a minidisc that will pretty much match DAT quality. I know lots of people using portable minidisc for their sound and they all love it.

The one question I have is: Can't you just get a home MD deck (inexpensive at around $100-150) with optical out and capture it to your soundcard that way thus keeping it all digital? Or does the copy protection on MD get in the way? I know that you can usually make at least one generation of copies in digital....isnt that good enough to get it on your PC and plop it in your NLE?

MiniDisc is near CD quality, not DAT quality, although most folks probably will have trouble hearing the difference. And it is adequate for most video purposes.

You can do a digital transfer as you describe, that is how I do it.( But digital transfer does not eliminate the compression /decompression cycle associated with MiniDisc.)

Also, because MiniDisc is 44.1 kHz sample rate, you may have to upsample to 48 kHz for use with your NLE, not a major problem - most good systems will seamlessly take care of this for you.

Tape of any kind for most recording purposes is probably dying.

HHb used to make a DAT recorder. They stopped making the PORTADAT in favor of an MD deck, the PORTADISC. They have recently released the PORTADRIVE for high-end location sound recording. It writes directly to removable 20GB hard drives. See the review at http://www.locationsound.ca/hhbp.html. A mere $10,000.

Fostex has the PD-6 which is a high end location DVD recorder.
see: http://www.locationsound.ca/reco.html#renl

Sony has now introduced (not yet in the US, I think) professional cameras that record to disk in DVCAM and better, so workflow is going to be non-linear from begininng to end very soon indeed, I think.