Hi everybody,

I just uploaded 4 new pictures to http://www.orphicfilm.nl/html/v125p.html
They were made with the same V1 camera, yesterday. The owner Jan used the V1 in Green Auto Mode and turned on the 25P function. Below Jan his comments with the four screenshots:

"...Possible some settings were wrong. In my opinion nothing is the matter with this camera. Its indeed just the settings which are very important. IMHO V1E 25P looks great! Have a look at these four shots. Were taken in Green auto mode with 25P Scan on! Later on we will experiment with other settings.

Pictures from VEGAS Snapshots in Best Full resolution without any tricks.
Photo 1 Seagles on square in front of flat
Photo 2 Seagle 20x zoom same spot as photo 1
Photo 3 Cyclist: filmed without tripod
Photo 4 Jans irish in macro with Century Achromatic Diopter 7x and
Macro LED Ringlamp round the 62mm lens on the V1E (more info on these accessories at: www.global-dvc.nl)..."

My first impression of these pictures:
- they look way better than the previous shots I made myself;
- the noise is gone;
- the oil paint artifact still remains: checkout the unsharp parts of the square or the brick wall behind the close up of the bird.

Feel free to give your own comments on the new results.

"...Possible some settings were wrong. In my opinion nothing is the matter with this camera. Its indeed just the settings which are very important. IMHO V1E 25P looks great! Have a look at these four shots.

They still show that oilpaint effect. Looks horrible. I can do that with a virtualdub filter called smart smoother, but I don't want the camera doing that without me.

<snip>
Feel free to give your own comments on the new results.

It's terrible. The entire cement area in the lower half of that apartment shot looks like something created with a Photoshop paint/mosaic filter. And the seagull's feather details are totally washed away. By all technical specifications, this Sony *should* have more progressive mode resolution than the Canon XH A1. I shot some footage of Penguins at our local aquarium with my A1 and, trust me, you should be able to count the individual feathers on that bird.

No disrespect meant to anyone, but if someone feels those images are acceptable from their fairly expensive HD camera, then there is some sort of denial issue. I think Tony has already confirmed that this is a real problem, and I'm sure Sony will provide a fix. This can almost certainly be fixed with a firmware update.

Hi everybody,

I just uploaded 4 new pictures to http://www.orphicfilm.nl/html/v125p.html
They were made with the same V1 camera, yesterday. The owner Jan used the V1 in Green Auto Mode and turned on the 25P function. Below Jan his comments with the four screenshots:

"...Possible some settings were wrong. In my opinion nothing is the matter with this camera. Its indeed just the settings which are very important. IMHO V1E 25P looks great! Have a look at these four shots. Were taken in Green auto mode with 25P Scan on! Later on we will experiment with other settings.

Pictures from VEGAS Snapshots in Best Full resolution without any tricks.
Photo 1 Seagles on square in front of flat
Photo 2 Seagle 20x zoom same spot as photo 1
Photo 3 Cyclist: filmed without tripod
Photo 4 Jans irish in macro with Century Achromatic Diopter 7x and
Macro LED Ringlamp round the 62mm lens on the V1E (more info on these accessories at: www.global-dvc.nl)..."

My first impression of these pictures:
- they look way better than the previous shots I made myself;
- the noise is gone;
- the oil paint artifact still remains: checkout the unsharp parts of the square or the brick wall behind the close up of the bird.

Feel free to give your own comments on the new results.


I think somebody needs some new glasses. That is about as far away from a natural looking image as you can get. HD is supposed to be a window into the natural world and this looks nothing like that. The effect may be reduced for whatever reason but it is still there. Besides even if it was the way the camera was setup, have any of us ever heard of a camera that would be this hard to use for progressive shooting? There shouldn't have to be any settings to adjust to get a good image since everything comes off the CMOS chips and DSP as progressive anyway. No other progressive camera I have ever seen in my life would cause this sort of effect with a badly setup camera. This is clearly a problem with the 25p from the camera. We have yet to see if 30p will show the same issue.

<snip>This is clearly a problem with the 25p from the camera. We have yet to see if 30p will show the same issue.

If the V1 30P or 24P screenshots that will inevitably be posted this week look like that 25P stuff... I think Canon's video unit will throw some sort of party.

I think somebody needs some new glasses. That is about as far away from a natural looking image as you can get. HD is supposed to be a window into the natural world and this looks nothing like that. The effect may be reduced for whatever reason but it is still there. Besides even if it was the way the camera was setup, have any of us ever heard of a camera that would be this hard to use for progressive shooting? There shouldn't have to be any settings to adjust to get a good image since everything comes off the CMOS chips and DSP as progressive anyway. No other progressive camera I have ever seen in my life would cause this sort of effect with a badly setup camera. This is clearly a problem with the 25p from the camera. We have yet to see if 30p will show the same issue.

There are some people who think it is fine! In fact on another forum I was described as throwing my toys out the pram and had unrealistically high expectations!! Go work that one out...

Anyway, shot some stuff (50i) this afternoon and this camera continues to impress unfortunately the weather doesn't so my enjoyment was curtailed.

If anyone can show me better colour rendition and a less video-ey image then I'd love to see it.

This camera simply rocks....

Anyway, shot some stuff (50i) this afternoon and this camera continues to impress unfortunately the weather doesn't so my enjoyment was curtailed.

If anyone can show me better colour rendition and a less video-ey image then I'd love to see it.

This camera simply rocks....

Tony,

please help us, excited (worried) people here with posting comparison shots of the same scene taken with 50i vs 25p.
That would help a lot. Until that the "less video-ey" image would only mean the impressionistic paint look we know from all the users who have received their V1E so far.

Thanks!
Zsolt

TT and others, sorry you're going through this, but thanks for being great sports.

We know the V1E has this problem - what of the V1U? 24P? 30P?

It's likely it does...

Tony,

please help us, excited (worried) people here with posting comparison shots of the same scene taken with 50i vs 25p.
That would help a lot. Until that the "less video-ey" image would only mean the impressionistic paint look we know from all the users who have received their V1E so far.

Thanks!
Zsolt

I already have posted comparison shots. Check out the Rapidshare thread.

Even from the quick snap shots you can see the colours of the V1e image. Amazing!

TT

Robert

....NOT.

24P/A from the pre-production V1U was as tack sharp. The unknown is 30P.

But both DSE and Steve Mullen have not reported issues with the pre-production V1U.

So I have a feeling you'll fair better.

TT

All: we had 3 separate threads on this topic and the discussion was getting fragmented between them, so I've merged them together into this common thread.

I'm pretty sure there was a drop in resolution. Not oil-paint, but there was something akin to line-doubling going on (which would be odd for a apparently "true-progressive" CMOS) unit. But if you say they're fine...

<snip>
24P/A from the pre-production V1U was as tack sharp. The unknown is 30P.

But both DSE and Steve Mullen have not reported issues with the pre-production V1U.

So I have a feeling you'll fair better.

TT

I'm not 100% up to speed on this, but wasn't the first 25P footage from a trade show really nice? I think it was a bar tender at a booth and it looked very sharp; certainly didn't look like the crayon drawings we're seeing from the production units. If Sony tweaked some sort of progressive scan settings between those pre-production units and the production models, there would be a chance that the same settings were compiled into the NTSC model's firmware.

Guess we'll found out VERY soon!

The bartender clip has a much more video-ey look about it but without the oil-paint effect. Colours have been tuned and render pretty much as my eyes do. Definitely the window on the world effect. We know the camera can do it!!!

What happened to produce the 25P noted by Simon Wyndham on a pre-production model that plagues us now is anybody's guess. We'll never know.

Sony are just not having a great year, batteries returned, PS3 delays now the V1e.

TT

TT and others, sorry you're going through this, but thanks for being great sports.

We know the V1E has this problem - what of the V1U? 24P? 30P?

It's likely it does...

It's likely it doesn't.
30p footage in various flavors and settings have been posted, I've shot several commercial projects at 30p starting clear back in early September. Steve shot several bits in 30p. While minor points of improvement were discovered early on in pre-production models as the cams made their way around Hollywood and major networks (all of which were dealt with long before the camera shipped), this 50i/25p European edition issue was not one of them.

Okay, you've all spoken. I don't recall having seen definitive evidence, but no negative reports have come in, and Douglas, I know you've tested the cameras. I stand corrected. I'm glad the V1U is probably fine - curious how the "E" version could be so wonky.

Okay, you've all spoken. I don't recall having seen definitive evidence, but no negative reports have come in, and Douglas, I know you've tested the cameras. I stand corrected. I'm glad the V1U is probably fine - curious how the "E" version could be so wonky.

Completely different clock times could affect a number of parameters. Could have been a faulty bit of code in the 50i version. Could be a bad chipset, could be a lot of things, but Sony have been made aware of the issue, and I'm sure we'll hear something soon.

So.... the V1U (24p - US/Can) Camera should not have been effected by this early flaw?

So.... the V1U (24p - US/Can) Camera should not have been effected by this early flaw?

So far no US shots are available - only those taken with pre-production models. All the V1E shots contain the "oil painting" effect.

It would be cool to see some pictures taken with the US production units.

So.... the V1U (24p - US/Can) Camera should not have been effected by this early flaw?

I would think not. Simon Wyndham identified this in the E models during preproduction and let Sony know. I couldn't assume what took place once they were notified. The U models never exhibited this in preproduction, so I wouldn't think it has changed. Haven't gotten a production unit yet, so can't comment with any level of surety, but I seriously can't imagine that this would have been induced in later models. I don't know the product manager for Europe, but I do know the product manager for the US. He's not just a "Sony guy" but is a shooter and knows his stuff, and has been very hands-on with the camcorder since the very first models arrived in the USA. He nearly took my head off for skydiving with a pre-production model, simply because they didn't yet know if all the parts were secured yet. There were several various stages of pre-production models sent to the US late summer, and not one of them had this behavior. We shot an entire DVD or two with this cam as well, using a wide variety of settings. It would have shown up, I'm sure.
there are now people getting V1's in the US, so I'm equally sure we'll see images posting heavily in the next few days, coming from production units. I'll be very surprised if we see any evidence of this.

The first major shipment of V1p's will hopefully be arrive on the 20th here. I spoke with one of my local retailers here and informed him about the issues in the E models. He is going to check out his P's as soon as they come in the door. I'll be there in to check it out asap. If the issue is present in the P model then it could be a 50i issue. However from the pictures we saw previous in this thread of the first P in NZ it could well be fine.

I just got my shipment notification from B&H. I should be getting it (V1U) by Wed. so I'll try out the 24p and see if I can post anything by Thursday (of course with the hoiday around the corner, and my two boys being sick... who knows).

I do know that I can't wait to try out this camera! I plan on using it with my M2 (35mm adapter), and I'll also try to post clips of this too.

Todd

The first major shipment of V1p's will hopefully be arrive on the 20th here. I spoke with one of my local retailers here and informed him about the issues in the E models. He is going to check out his P's as soon as they come in the door. I'll be there in to check it out asap. If the issue is present in the P model then it could be a 50i issue. However from the pictures we saw previous in this thread of the first P in NZ it could well be fine.


FWIW, I just went through about half an hour of footage I shot with a P model when in Sydney/Melbourne last month, with 25p. No problems that I can find, and I got some nice shots at max latitude at Circle Quay at sunset, bridge and opera house in the shot along with everything else.

We've only just been notified by our Sony dealer that our first V1E has arrived.
He's also advised that he's been firmly told not to let it out of his sight, to not even open the box. Remarkably they seemed a tad surprised when we said we know why, obviously some Sony dealers haven't quite caught up with where the world has gone the last decade.

We've only just been notified by our Sony dealer that our first V1E has arrived.
He's also advised that he's been firmly told not to let it out of his sight, to not even open the box. Remarkably they seemed a tad surprised when we said we know why, obviously some Sony dealers haven't quite caught up with where the world has gone the last decade.

That made me chuckle. I wonder how long till the firmware patch/press release. No use in forecasting, just saying, it'll have to be only a matter of time.

I just got my shipment notification from B&H. I should be getting it (V1U) by Wed. so I'll try out the 24p and see if I can post anything by Thursday (of course with the hoiday around the corner, and my two boys being sick... who knows).

I do know that I can't wait to try out this camera! I plan on using it with my M2 (35mm adapter), and I'll also try to post clips of this too.

Todd

I think the camera will be a huge hit with 35mm adapter owners. Combined with true progressive and HDMI capture this camera can seriously punch above its weight...

TT

So, just out of interest, anyone else thinking that these "watercolour" V1's are gonna be worth a fortune to some lo-fi music video director in about 10 years, ala the Pixelvision?!

I gotta say I'm quite interested in seeing/playing with that watercolour "effect" - I've never seen anything like it... What's it like on, say, a busy street full of people?

Oh, and totally agree Tony, as I mentioned in another post - can't wait to get one on the back of my M2...

So, just out of interest, anyone else thinking that these "watercolour" V1's are gonna be worth a fortune to some lo-fi music video director in about 10 years, ala the Pixelvision?!

I gotta say I'm quite interested in seeing/playing with that watercolour "effect" - I've never seen anything like it... What's it like on, say, a busy street full of people?

Hey it sure beats rendering that sort of effect as HD. Imagine creating 60 minutes of HD with that sort of an artsy look in only 60 minutes.



Kind of like Baseball cards that would have huge errors that would make them worth a lot more money because of the rare error. Back in my day everybody wished they would get one of these cards not only because it was cool but because it was worth a lot of money.

It would be cool if SONY could leave this problem in the camera as a menu option sort of like the old cheesy mosaic and sepia modes on cheap consumer cameras.

Lol, yeah - instant post-production!

It would be cool if the "mode" could be kept as an option - like you say, it's not gonna get a *whole* lot of use, but you never know and it would be a neat in-joke...

So, you listening Sony?

If they don't I'm certain somebody will be smart enough to keep a camera with the original firmware to sell for a fortune on eBay as a collectable.

So far no US shots are available - only those taken with pre-production models. All the V1E shots contain the "oil painting" effect.

See my thread with 24p, 30p, and 50i images. Do any look like the 25p issues?

See my thread with 24p, 30p, and 50i images. Do any look like the 25p issues?

Hi Steve, certainly these shots look much better than any of the V1E shots and none of them show the "oil painting" effect. The 3rd photo is visibly softer than the others - I wonder which setting has been used.

See my thread with 24p, 30p, and 50i images. Do any look like the 25p issues?

No, nothing like the 25P effect.

Good news for us as 30P is fine so 25P will be fine when someone pulls their finger out.

TT

There seems to be more info from Sony in The Netherlands, according to Global DVC. Read my other message at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=593516&posted=1#post593516

It seems our V1P has been released, with a firmware update!
We'll need to do some serious testing to confirm how it's working I guess and I'm a bit pressed for time so it'll be a while before I can to it. Interesting to hear if anyone else has 'fixed' unit in Asia or Europe.

My V1P arrived today (in Melbourne, Australia) and I can safely say there is a distinct difference in quality between 50i and 25p. My dealer assures me that it is a fixed model - that in fact all models in Australia are fixed.

I don't know well enough what terms best describe it but the difference is there for sure.

My family couldn't see the difference so maybe it's just because I was looking for it.

My V1P arrived today (in Melbourne, Australia) and I can safely say there is a distinct difference in quality between 50i and 25p. My dealer assures me that it is a fixed model - that in fact all models in Australia are fixed.

I don't know well enough what terms best describe it but the difference is there for sure.

My family couldn't see the difference so maybe it's just because I was looking for it.

John,

There is no fix yet!

Over Xmas there was a firmware update but that only helped reduce the "oil paint" effect but did nothing for all of the other problems, i.e over sharpening, aliasing of fine detail, and destruction of fine detail etc etc.

Check out the V1 Progressive Sharpness thread. I have posted pics that show at least some of the problems. My dealer is desperately trying to get information out of Sony regarding a "real fix" to the 25P issue and when we are likely to get it.

The big problem at the moment is the lack of information coming from Sony. In my dealings with them they have been extremely tight lipped.

You could do your dealer a favour a let him know so he can let his customers know that 25P is still not as it should be. Actually, it's a long way from where it should be in terms of quality.

I shall post information as I receive it to the "V1 Progressive Sharpness?" thread.

If if your dealer doesn't know of the continuing issues with the V1 rest assured that Sony does and is working on a solution.

TT

There is no fix yet!

Over Xmas there was a firmware update but that only helped reduce the "oil paint" effect but did nothing for all of the other problems, i.e over sharpening, aliasing of fine detail, and destruction of fine detail etc etc.

Strange, the guys absolutely and positively assured me that the problems were 100% resolved.

I'll call them in the morning to see if anyone else has complained. But they told me that I was in their second batch of distributed customers so I suspect that if anyone else had noticed, they would have complained already...

Strange, the guys absolutely and positively assured me that the problems were 100% resolved.

I'll call them in the morning to see if anyone else has complained. But they told me that I was in their second batch of distributed customers so I suspect that if anyone else had noticed, they would have complained already...

It is your choice who you believe.

No worries.

TT

It is your choice who you believe.

I'm a natural born cynic so I'll always believe the worse of two stories.

Plus I can clearly see a difference!

If 25p is supposed to be equal in quality to 25i then something is definitely askew...

I'm a natural born cynic so I'll always believe the worse of two stories.

Plus I can clearly see a difference!

If 25p is supposed to be equal in quality to 25i then something is definitely askew...

Check out the V1 Progressive Sharpness? thread and look at the pics I posted. See if you see similar artefacts to those in my pics.

Some of the problems only arise or become very obvious in certain conditions. Have a look at the thread as I outline all of the issues that remain. Bob Grant a fellow countryman of yours makes a valid point about how typical camera testing techniques might not show the problems. I fully support that view.

Cheers

TT

Check out the V1 Progressive Sharpness? thread and look at the pics I posted. See if you see similar artefacts to those in my pics.

Some of the problems only arise or become very obvious in certain conditions. Have a look at the thread as I outline all of the issues that remain. Bob Grant a fellow countryman of yours makes a valid point about how typical camera testing techniques might not show the problems. I fully support that view.

Cheers

TT

My knowledge of the vocabulary isn't sound enough to ensure I am talking about the same things.

I think you mentioned somewhere "sparkly noise" and I definietly see that - a lot of it! And at times, edges just wither away to nothing. You're right, it's not all the time, it seems to come and go. In my footage, I think it was to do with the light conditions, and I wasn't sure whether it was simply a normal reaction or not. But I switch to interlaced and the image is flawless all the time.

My knowledge of the vocabulary isn't sound enough to ensure I am talking about the same things.

I think you mentioned somewhere "sparkly noise" and I definietly see that - a lot of it! And at times, edges just wither away to nothing. You're right, it's not all the time, it seems to come and go. In my footage, I think it was to do with the light conditions, and I wasn't sure whether it was simply a normal reaction or not. But I switch to interlaced and the image is flawless all the time.

The stairstepping or aliasing of edges is particularly bad in 25P and was the first thing I noticed having received the camera back from "fixing." On bright or high contrast edges these can literally sparkle like crazy.

The problems go from the sublime to the ridiculous from dark area detail being obliterated, oil paint effect, copious block noise, aliasing and twinkling highlights all add up to a disastrous image.

None of it is supposed to be normal thankfully. 25P is supposed to be the same high quality as interlaced.

TT

This thread is a dog chasing it's tail; going no where.

~For point of clarity, Sony EU, US, Japan, Sony Canada, Sony Pacific Rim, Latin American, and Sony Australia are different companies, different groups, and different sets of management. It's quite possible that the Australian models or any other regional area model have a fix in place prior to other regions.

~Obviously there have been some difficulties with the 25p/50i units. Although Sony haven't officially made a statement, it's clear a problem exists.

~Obviously, there are some imaginations at play as well.

~Of course 25p and 50i appear differently; to expect them to appear identically is not reasonable; they're different formats that require different handling techniques.

Needless to say, there is no further point in continuing to argue about whether ants, stairstepping, sparklies, oil paint, or other new/real/imagined/supposed/inferred problems exist.
If someone can post an actual statement from Sony, a Sony dealer, a named Sony rep (not some dude met at a tradeshow that has no name), that either clarifies any problem, explains any problem, or provides information about the problem, please begin a new topic.

But this particular horse has been beaten to death in this thread.