Also just to double check with you Tony -
When feeding straight from camera into a monitor you say it looks fine.
When capturing into final cut looks not so fine

But what about playing back off tape straight to a monitor?

As things have got clearer it appears I missed the 25p issues during the demo I had. I fed my V1's component input into my Dell monitor and can confirm live output and tape are affected equally badly. As soon as you select 25PScan the damage is done.

If you want 25P at the moment the only was is to use the time honoured method of using a high quality de-interlacer on 50i captures. :)

TT

I've had no problems capturing 24p (packaged in a 60i stream) footage from the V1u with Final Cut Pro v. 5.1.2, so I wonder what's happening.

heath

Answers on a postcard, please!

Try this Tony - something I found odd on live monitoring with the V1

About an arms length away from the lens I held out one of my fingers horizontally. Very slowly I waggled my finger up and down in the vertical.

Do the same and watch the edges of your finger.

Answers on a postcard, please!
I'm a little confused with your reply here.

heath

We no longer have access to a camera. Zane leaves tomorrow for Takuu Island and you can keep up to date with the shoot via www.takuufilm.blogspot.com

Good luck Tony with Sony UK and we'll be interested on what results are found in the US.

I'm a little confused with your reply here.

heath

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble
Answers on a postcard, please!

Probably got lost in translation Heath. It's British and antipodean humor. Older game or variety TV, radio shows or newspapers would invite viewers/listeners/readers to win a prize by sending answers in, on a postcard or the back of an envelope.

Normal transmission will resume shortly...

Good luck with the Doco.

I've never been to Takuu Island but have travelled (backpacked) through the South Pacific Island hopping. I hope I can return someday with a camera like this V1 or its successor. Bora Bora and Aitutaki lagoons....awe....the colours...:)

ATB

TT

Originally Posted by Tony Tremble
Answers on a postcard, please!

Probably got lost in translation Heath. It's British and antipodean humor. Older game or variety TV, radio shows or newspapers would invite viewers/listeners/readers to win a prize by sending answers in, on a postcard or the back of an envelope.

Normal transmission will resume shortly...
Ahhh, gotcha. I may have Scottish and English blood in me, but I'm a bit too American to have caught that! Thanks!!

heath

Ahhh, gotcha. I may have Scottish and English blood in me, but I'm a bit too American to have caught that! Thanks!!

heath

Sorry, Heath I though that was a universal phrase. :)

TT

Tony:

Out of curiosity ( and I confess I came in late on this one and may have missed it in the read of the thread) I am wondering if the live and taped output you are viewing that demonstrates the problem is being delivered to your monitor via firewire, or component output and if a difference will occur.

Chris

Live component output to monitor is affected. As I said as soon as one selects 25P the damage is done whether you are recording to tape or not.

Everyone who has been made aware of the situation and has seen the oil paint effect all unanimously agree that is not fit for purpose. Not timeframe for a fix but Sony do have a good rep for sorting things.

TT

Hi Tony,

any update from Sony UK?

No Zsolt.

This is in the hands of Sony Japan now. A priority situation at Sony I'm lead to believe.

Any news I get I will pass on. I am absolutely confident this will be resolved to the satisfaction of all of us.

I am looking forward to the weather improving here in the UK to go shoot some stuff and upload so you guys can see what a dream of a camera this is.

Keep the faith...

TT

Hi guys,
I had the chance to shoot some 25P footage with the Z1 PAL camera this afternoon. A bunch of screenshots are online at www.orphicfilm.nl/html/v125p.html . My first impression is mixed. The footage looks okay and large with enough detail, but it isn't very crisp. It seems to contain noise, the light situation wasn't optimal but it wasn't bad either (at around 4 PM at the beach with a rather clear sky). There is also something odd going on with the footage, checkout the 3rd and 6th picture (the silver lines around the windows of the passing car, and the benches): the color/image-details look a bit strange. Is this the paint issue some people mentioned on another thread?
Looking forward to some feedback. Remember, this was a quick test with not very much knowledge of the camera settings.

Peter,

Those shots look dreadful. They seem, to me anyway, worse than anything I've seen from Tony or Simon's previous examples. The 4th shot in particular, of the low brick wall, is just a mess.

Tony would be best to comment as he has had experience with the 'oil paint effect'

I agree, these are horrible. There is definitely something wrong with that unit. Even Mikko's IBC trade show footage of the V1E at 25P looked nothing like this.

I think we can safely say there has been a huge problem somewhere. How it happened we'll never know but we should all have faith that it'll be fixed in one way or another.

I am still having fun with 50i and look forward to a fully functioning 25P as and when.

TT

I hope they don't decide to charge us more for having a built in "impressionist filter."

Those images look more like the gain was set high instead of the "watercolor" look shown before.

I don't think the Gain was activated on the camera, as shooting outside at the end of the afternoon felt like the automatic exposure was not very 'enhanced/pushed', it was natural as I would expect it comparing with the light situation. But I can't tell for 100%.

CMOS sensors are less sensitive, am I right? And the size of them (1/4 inch) must also have influence on it's lesser sensitivity? Any insights from the technical side?

You could easily have your iris set to compensate for exposure by adding gain. You *must* go into the menu settings and disable shutter priority and/or gain priority in the camera straight out of the box.

Now I am seriously worried. My V1 arrives on Monday. Maybe I will use same day delivery - as in back to the store...

Hi Spot, the only thing I managed to find within the small session this afternoon was setting the shutter speed at 1/50 second (and activating the 25P modus). To have a nice average framerate for 25P footage. I didn't touch any other functions in the camera as it was basically coming straight from the box. Could this cause the image/gain problems?

Here is one videoclip from the footage (in HD WMV9 format):
http://www.videomontageforum.nl/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=104504

Hi Spot, the only thing I managed to find within the small session this afternoon was setting the shutter speed at 1/50 second (and activating the 25P modus). To have a nice average framerate for 25P footage. I didn't touch any other functions in the camera as it was basically coming straight from the box. Could this cause the image/gain problems?

Could this cause the image/gain problems?
Absolutely! Most likely, in fact.
To correctly set the camcorder for manual gain, select the menu button.
Now select Camera Setup.
Now scroll down to Iris.
Set Iris to "Iris." Not Iris-Auto Shutter, and not Iris Auto Gain.
Scroll back up to exit.
Select menu again to exit the menu.
Now your gain is manual, and displayed in the preview window.

Thanks Spot. Within two weeks I might be able to do a second try and will alter the settings as you described. Weird that the standard settings are not doing the camera any justice.

Thanks Spot. Within two weeks I might be able to do a second try and will alter the settings as you described. Weird that the standard settings are not doing the camera any justice.

But they are. You didn't use the standard settings, you went into the menu and modified the camera. If you're shooting manual, then the manufacturer expects you've looked into the menus and set it up for manual use. If you want "easy" mode, put the cam in the Green Box/Easy mode and shoot that way. Whether it's Sony, Canon, Panasonic, JVC, or whomever, I'm not sure how they could have a "de-suck" setting that would say "well...he's got this in manual and that in auto, and it will look bad, so we'd better modify this to prevent suckage..." ;-)

I had the chance to shoot some 25P footage with the Z1 PAL camera this afternoon.

Peter: you said the camera was a Z1 in both the title of the thread and in your post. Did you mean V1???

Peter: you said the camera was a Z1 in both the title of the thread and in your post. Did you mean V1???

its quite likely a typo error as Z1 cannot shoot 25p.

Sorry guys, yes it was a V1 I hold this afternoon.

Thanks Peter. I have changed the title of the thread to correct this.

Wow are those bad. While this may be an easy fix I wonder what the heck SONY was thinking by letting this get past quality control. I mean even a two year old would be able to tell that those images just are not right. At least JVC with the split screen issue had a valid technical reason for doing it the way they did. You could still use the camera but you had to be carefull.

Some of these images to me kind of look how a really bad flat panel HDTV will try to upsample and sharpen footage and it comes out with this very odd look. From a distance it looks ok but up close it looks like poodoo.

Guys the oil paint problem is magnified with the gain up.

The oil paint efect is cause by an over aggressive noise (high frequency) filter. Any high frequency detail or noise in an image is smoothed out.

Come on, let's not for get Sony know about the problem and are working on a fix.

Yes, the 25P mode is dreadful but for only the time being.

IT'S GOING TO BE FIXED.

TT

From a distance it looks ok but up close it looks like poodoo.

It doesn't look that good!!!!

:)

Yes, the 25P mode is dreadful but for only the time being.

IT'S GOING TO BE FIXED.

TT

Tony, are you certain about this? You seem to know more than you share :)

I dont mind that, I just dont want to end up without a fix.

Tony, are you certain about this? You seem to know more than you share :)

I dont mind that, I just dont want to end up without a fix.

I am not holding anything back. There is nothing more that can be said. Sony know about the problem and it will be fixed...

TT

OK guys - I've been quiet lately, waiting for my V1E delivery. Because of the 25p problem reports, I gave up importing from the UK and ordered mine locally instead. It arrived yesterday and - in spite of my hopes it could be trouble-free as coming from different batch - I can confirm: the 25p mode is bad. I'm not saying useless; but certainly below expectations. When connected via component to a 1920x1200 LCD, it gets a bit brighter when 25p mode is engaged, but at the same time fine details are gone. Looks like some heavy filtering kicks in. I didn't shoot a material long enough in 25p and in 50i to be able to compare the video looks of both modes, but the softness in progressive is definitely there.

One quick question: has anybody tried the 25p on an INTERLACED HDTV (CRT)? Cause I've been thinking; with all the de-interlacing stuff implemented in plasma and LCD displays, maybe it's just the way it has to look? I mean, deinterlacing progressive is a tricky thing to do... But it's just my curiosity. Hopefully Sony will see to it; we have the Prime Support, after all!

Otherwise, it's a great little machine. However, I've spotted one quality issue: the component output socket is loose and the cable doesn't seat firmly, resulting in the intermittent signals losses. Can anyone confirm, or is it just my copy? Also, the mic holder is not firmly connected to the body; there's sort of a hinge between it's screwed-in part and the soft tube, most probably this is intentional for shock absorbing, but please confirm yours are the same.

Well, if you ask me, I'm not even going to post any grabs ar clips to prove the 25p softness, 'cause it's so obvious there's no doubt about it. I have very mixed feelings; personally don't believe it's a flaw that Sony would soon fix with some firmware upgrade; it looks more elike a "feature". Big disappointment.

Piotr, I feel sorry to you, being one of the prime-sony support, I have mixed feeling to move to Canon XH-A1 too (although I am sure it is a better move).

The more I read about V1 thread, the more I feel there is actual no V1 but only FX7+, the "plus" is just the add-on of XLR and few more menu options that I wonder could be upgradeable directly to FX7 if Sony does care of it's loyal customers.

Then spend some real effort to make a Z7.5 out early next year, IMHO...

There is no technical reason why 25P should be less good than 50i since the CMOS chips are progressively scanned and it's more effort to produce 50i than 25P.

In the world of video us PAL region users have always had the short straw from cameras to NLEs. I am confident, so is my dealer, that a fix will be with us through silver support ASAP.

It is a monumental screw up BUT it is being worked on. I was gutted initially but have been assured by my dealer that this is being dealt with due urgency.

I disagree moving to the Canon in my view would be a retrograde step as the Canon does not produce the image the Sony does. Give 'em chance to deliver a 25P fix and then make up your mind. You might regret an early move.

Ing Poh Hii, you are entitled to your opinion but logic is against you.

TT

Tony, regarding other issues I mentioned - can your component cable be firmly connected with the camera's socket, and is the microphone holder not rigid like mine?

The mic holder is identical to the PD150 and should not be solid.

I have not noticed any issues with my component cable.

TT

Has anyone tried a V1E (PAL version) that doesn't have this softness-in-progressive-mode problem?

I need to buy something very soon here in Australia and these reports are seriously affecting my decision - swaying me towards the canon A1.

Ing Poh Hii, you are entitled to your opinion but logic is against you.

TT

Hi Tony, please don't mis-understand, I do believe Sony would take the 25p quality problem fixed especially for europe customers. I have to emphasis "Europe customers", I come from Malaysia and we received very different "treatment" when dealing with Sony service-center... let's not go there.

I hope it is just a firmware fix, otherwise I am going to worry where these problem V1 would go to ? Trust me, I bought a PD150 from a very reputation Hongkong seller before, but I didn't notice a small fungus inside the len bcs that shop wasn't bright enough for me to test every feature of the camcorder, i brought it back to malaysia and few days after, I realise the problem and run to Sony center, they refused to free-repair and claimed that was my own fault without taking good care to the camcorder while I have more then 10 camcorders from old SVHS day still working fine throughtout my professional life, I treasure every single one of them, but they claim it was my own fault on this new kit and I have to pay RM6000 to replace the whole len (which is equal to half the cost of the camcorder at that time) and I have to wait for a month to get it fix bcs again, Malaysia Sony has no stock !!

That was the time PD150 has just out to the market 3 months less, and I was lucky to get a bad one.

Because of this bad experience, I am very caution about buying any equipment now (and that is why I start to spend time in this forum and learn a lot from you all). As far as I can tell, Canon has no quality issue being identified yet, V1 may be good in near future but at least I don't want to be the first runner (as I have no privillege like you all, none of the Malaysia or Singapore dealer can even show me a demo unit, all order upon request).

FX7 is easier to get at here, it is also what Sony tries to push in Asia market, if the ClearVid CMOS is progressive-scan by default, why Sony bother to make FX7 deinterlace the progressive frame and make it only 50i ?

I am sure the process is technically complex (many of you might know why), then V1 has no more button then FX7, why can't FX7 have all those non-25/30p related function available in it's menu ? surely it is just a firmware upgrade as well.

But Sony intentionally put more menu (a.k.a professional feature) in V1 but not FX7, just try to add value to a new product which has not just XLR, 25/30p but also more menu.

I have difficulty to accept such "marketing design", I wonder if Canon is going to make FX7 & V1, it would be more like A1 vs G1, you get no different in term of menu & functionality while "Canon V1" have 25/30p recording & HMDI output... ha ha.. just nonsense.

So my bottom line is pretty low, the choice is between A1 & FX7, but I do love those "extra menu" of V1, so I wait for V1. And now V1 does have all extra menu works flawlessly, shouldn't I just take it ? Yes I should but your test of 25p remind my sad story...

So it is more then just the quality of the camcorder "fool" me to make the decision of taking A1, it is also bcs I believe I shall give myself a chance to try others... I recalled someone has once said "bad firm becomes better while god firm goes bad".

Let's get out of this blue, I have a question about your comment that Canon video is not as good as Sony, please can you explain to me in detail ? I have to say it is my first time handle Canon camcorder although I love their camera & designer printer. Many of you have mentioned the quality between A1 & V1 is very narrow, but it seems to you not the case, I would hope to learn more about this (you might PM me if such discussion is not allowed).

Many thanks to all your help.

I can only be thankful that I have no need for the progressive mode and never liked the motion handling in this mode of any of the HDV cams in progressive. I had owned the original JVC HDV cam and returned it because of the 'stuttering' video with quick motion. My FX7 is just beautifully sharp in interlaced, even though ironically it ends up as progessive on my 50" plasma.

I sincerely hope you guys get this issue resolved so that you can begin to enjoy this great camera.

So if the issue wont be fixed with a firmware update, would the solution be a refund of the price difference between V1 and FX7? And would the balanced audio be given as free gift to reward those who were patiently waiting?
In fact V1E owners now have an overpriced FX7.
This might sound too materialistic, but this is the situation plus the main selling point for V1 is 25p...

Correction - when I said it got brighter when switched to progressive, I didn't account for the accompanying change uf shutter speed from 50 to 25th. When you compare the modes at the same shutter speed (and other exposure params equal), none is brighter of course.

Wow, I'm really shocked. Wow.

I want it to be good, but it just isn't. I didn't know what you guys meant by oil-paint effect till these pictures showed up.

This is the V1E, but what of the V1U? Douglas, your images looked fine, and made me fall in love with the camera. You cited detail-declined once in progressive mode, but, it was nothing like this.

I'm glad it works great at 50i Peter!

Robert, I will receive new pictures soon with changed camera settings and will add them to the webpage.
So far I can tell is that the forced 1/50 shutter speed with the default settings for iris/gain forced the camera to use the Gain function to get the exposure right. The light conditions weren't fantastic but there was enough daylight to do a standard shot IMHO. I think the light conditions are critical for this camera (CMOS sensor related?).

The oil paint effect is something else. Other on this forum have more info about that.

Tony, now when your opinion on the 25p nature in the V1E is confirmed here (different batch), and based on your proceedings with your local dealer - what is your advice the rest of us affected should be doing? Particularly, is some activity required (like calling the dealer or e-mailing Sony), or is it safe to just sit and wait fro Sony's move - an annoucement about firmware upgrade availability for download, or sending the cameras back to the dealer, or what?

Piotr

Legally in the UK by sitting back and doing nothing can be taken as accepting duff goods. I obviously have no idea of the law in Poland but I would get on the phone/email to your dealer and register your complaint ASAP. Doing nothing is not normally a wise option.

The more dealers Sony have complaints from can only be a good thing to expedite a fix! If you know of anybody else affected get them to do the same...complain!!

Let your dealer know your serial number so if it is a batch that is affected (I think ALL units though) they can trace the batch.

History has shown people power works.

TT

Totally agree Tony; BTW my serial number is 1210377, what's yours? I believe it'd be good if - when more and more people get their units and confirm/deny the problem - if we shared the serial numbers so that we can pin it down to a specific production series that is (is not) affected.

I'll be complaining about it to my dealer first thing Monday morning, but would like to back it up with some facts that we, the forum users, know and that a Polish dealer might have no idea about...