Well I know Tony is bumbed out and rightly so... we all feel for ya and of course we all hope that this issue is just a bad single Cam....

There are others reporting on other newsgroups that the Sony is working fine, at least in PAL land, no reports of any Cam's in the USA yet.....

If you look around there are also at least one site that has the user manual that can be down loaded too..

Sorry Tony, the V1 we have demoed does not display any of the loss of detail as per yours or Simon's frames. Everything is sharp, clear and detailed in 25p. The camera LCD and Pansonic BT-LH1700 can't be faulted.

Tomorrow we'll have more time to put some material through Final Cut and see if anything is turning up when going to tape.

Scott Webster
www.rocketrentals.com

Here's where an understanding of HOW a camcorder works can help.
Ask the Sony techs, but I'm pretty sure the V1 doesn't work at all how you describe. For the 50i/60i mode you're describing conventional interlaced scanning, but AFAI can tell, the V1 doesn't ever scan interlaced, it only scans progressively, and does an HVX-style 1080/60p scan which then gets sliced into fields. All frames are scanned progressively. I don't have one in front of me, but a simple way to tell would be to see if there's a sensitivity difference between 24p mode and 60i mode. If it gets a stop faster in 60i mode, it's probably scanning interlaced. If there's no difference in sensitivity, it's almost unquestionably scanning progressive.

As for this part: "Region 60 UNITS in 24p mode: Choose 24 of the 60p frames and add pulldown to get 60 fields."

That's completely wrong. The CCD isn't scanned at 60Hz when in 24P mode; if it was the motion would look awful -- more akin to CineFrame 24. In the V1, HVX, HD100 etc. the CCD is actually reclocked to 24Hz, and scanned at 24Hz. The fields are generated in the recording, but it doesn't have 60p frames to start from, it starts from 24 frames.

Sorry Tom, the V1 we have demoed does not display any of the loss of detail as per yours or Simon's frames. Everything is sharp, clear and detailed in 25p. The camera LCD and Pansonic BT-LH1700 can't be faulted.

Tomorrow we'll have more time to put some material through Final Cut and see if anything is turning up when going to tape.

Scott Webster
www.rocketrentals.com

It's only going to tape or capturing live through firewire that the loss in resolution and blurring occurs.

Live output to Sony production grade HD monitor (via component) showed no change in image quality between 50i and 25P

It's only when 25P undergoes HDV compression to tape or through live capture.

As a test I de-interlaced the 50i captures and they still retain more information/detail than the 25P captures. That alone should send warning bells to anyone considering this camera.

Also be aware that capturing is flaky in FCP with the V1e. I thought I had a duff FW cable but the same fault was repeated by my dealer. The capture starts, captures random lengths between 12 frames and 3 seconds then loses sync. The for no apparent reason will then work fine.

We didn't get very far yesterday. Apart from me being told a complete and utter load of rubbish. As a result I was extremely cranky yesterday. No excuses.

Today is a new day. The sun is shining.

Any help anyone can give to this problem will be gratefully received as I am losing confidence in those around me.

TT

As someone who has ordered a V1P, I have a question.

If all models arrive and, as reported, the 25p mode is truly useless, do we have grounds to return the camera for a refund?

Or can they just say something to the effect of "Well that's just the capability of that camera, so suck on that?"

I'm getting nervous about it.

John

My worries exactly.

Let's just hold on and hope my unit is duff....But it's scaring the s..... out of me.

If this camera is a representative model then there to my mind there is a clear case of misrepresentation with the marketing of this camera and what it delivers.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. I am clinging on to the hope this is a dud.

TT

Tony, We'll go into FCP tomorrow and double check. The team using the camera are doing a once in a lifetime doco. I would hate for them to spend 2 months documenting this story only to find the camera has let them down.

http://www.onfilm.co.nz/editorial.asp?EditorialID=23920&src=H

http://www.takuufilm.blogspot.com/

Scott Webster
www.rocketrentals.com

Barry is right; when I switch the DVX100a from 24p to 30p to 60i, the image gets brighter without me touching the exposure controls. Same thing with the V1u when I go from 24p to 30p to 60i, but NOT the Z1u--I can go from CineFrame to no CineFrame but see no difference in exposure.

As far as I can tell, the way the progressive scanning is put into an interlace stream is the same basic way that Panasonic is doing it on their cameras.

heath

Ask the Sony techs, but I'm pretty sure the V1 doesn't work at all how you describe. For the 50i/60i mode you're describing conventional interlaced scanning, but AFAI can tell, the V1 doesn't ever scan interlaced, it only scans progressively, and does an HVX-style 1080/60p scan which then gets sliced into fields. All frames are scanned progressively. I don't have one in front of me, but a simple way to tell would be to see if there's a sensitivity difference between 24p mode and 60i mode. If it gets a stop faster in 60i mode, it's probably scanning interlaced. If there's no difference in sensitivity, it's almost unquestionably scanning progressive.

As for this part: "Region 60 UNITS in 24p mode: Choose 24 of the 60p frames and add pulldown to get 60 fields."

That's completely wrong. The CCD isn't scanned at 60Hz when in 24P mode; if it was the motion would look awful -- more akin to CineFrame 24. In the V1, HVX, HD100 etc. the CCD is actually reclocked to 24Hz, and scanned at 24Hz. The fields are generated in the recording, but it doesn't have 60p frames to start from, it starts from 24 frames.

Before you jump to conclusions, why not call Sony up and talk to their excellent pro tech support (all pro Sony models come with it; all tech support for consumer models like the FX1 or FX7 are routed through the consumer division) and see what's up.

heath

John

My worries exactly.

Let's just hold on and hope my unit is duff....But it's scaring the s..... out of me.

If this camera is a representative model then there to my mind there is a clear case of misrepresentation with the marketing of this camera and what it delivers.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. I am clinging on to the hope this is a dud.

TT

Barry is right; when I switch the DVX100a from 24p to 30p to 60i, the image gets brighter without me touching the exposure controls. Same thing with the V1u when I go from 24p to 30p to 60i, but NOT the Z1u--I can go from CineFrame to no CineFrame but see no difference in exposure.

As far as I can tell, the way the progressive scanning is put into an interlace stream is the same basic way that Panasonic is doing it on their cameras.

heath

Heath,

No change in brightness going from interlace to Prog on my V1e.

TT

Heath,

No change in brightness going from interlace to Prog on my V1e.

TT
Hmmm...The V1u I used has a slight variation in brightness between 24p and 60i, less so with 30p to 60i. Just like the DVX100a's I use.

Before you jump to conclusions, why not call Sony up and talk to their excellent pro tech support (all pro Sony models come with it; all tech support for consumer models like the FX1 or FX7 are routed through the consumer division) and see what's up.

heath

Already done that. Sony do not support the HVR models themselves and use a 3rd party. There are no technotes on their system regarding issues with the V1e.

The person I spoke to said that the problem "simply cannot be right."

I have not heard anything from my dealer having rung and left messages chasing for an update.

I was given a name to chase at Sony and will do that tomorrow.

It appears that the dealer i purchased from is not a authorised Sony Broadcast dealer. Hindsight is an exact science...

TT

Ask the Sony techs, but I'm pretty sure the V1 doesn't work at all how you describe. For the 50i/60i mode you're describing conventional interlaced scanning, but AFAI can tell, the V1 doesn't ever scan interlaced, it only scans progressively, ...

As for this part: "Region 60 UNITS in 24p mode: Choose 24 of the 60p frames and add pulldown to get 60 fields."


I have no idea what leads you to think I said the chips are scanned in interlace mode. Of course, they scan every frame -- all 1080 lines, 60 times per second. Here is what I wrote:

Region 50 UNITS in 50i mode:

ODD 1/50th second: RESET all CMOS elements; allow integration time; read 960x1080 elements from chip into EIP; up-scale 960 to 1920 and low-pass filter vertical by 30%; encode odd lines from EIP as an Odd field.

EVEN 1/50th second: RESET all CMOS elements; allow integration time; read 960x1080 from chip into EIP; up-scale 960 to 1920 and low-pass filter vertical by 30%; encode odd lines from EIP as an Even field.

NOTE THE "READ 960x1080 INTO EIP."

------------

You are correct about 24p. I had a email from Sony Japan and in my memory I reversed it: "At 24p scan mode, we only read 24 frame per second, not select 24 frames from the 60."

-------------

But, that does not tell us how 25p and 30p are captured. So my test for Region 50 units remains valid -- is there a quality different between the 2 "fields" of an 25p frame. Specifically, is one "field" better than the other?

So back on topic -- what's the result of this simple test?

It appears that the dealer i purchased from is not a authorised Sony Broadcast dealer. Hindsight is an exact science...

TT
Which is why we have a list of sponsors and dealers (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=22) that we all work with often.

A note to everyone, if the deal on a new camera or whatever is too good to be true, it is. You won't be picking up a V1u in the US for $2500 without getting scammed on a lot of other items, like paying $500 for a $10 tripod (this happened to both a friend of mine and even me).

Sorry to go offtopic, but everyday I hear friends, students, colleagues and more telling me about this incredible price on a unit. Sigh...My mistake 8 years ago should be a lesson to avoid those guys!

heath

Don't rub it in :)

To be fair I have deal with these people for many years and never had a problem.....until now.

Bad firms improve and unfortunately good firms also go bad..

TT

Good point, Tony, good point.

heath

So back on topic -- what's the result of this simple test?

I replied earlier, both fields are bad.

The Progressive image appears to be a deinterlaced 50i frame, that has been filtered heavily. There is absolutely no one good field.

You can easily recreate the "progressive" look in any image manipulation software. Deinterlace (no interpolation), then apply a median filter.

TT

Update:

Dealer's camera show same reduced picture quality in 25P. Not just my camera is affected.

So if there are any US V1 owners out there could you record some 30P and see if you get similar results. 30P vs 60i how does it compare?

Cheers

TT

Tony, We'll go into FCP tomorrow and double check. The team using the camera are doing a once in a lifetime doco. I would hate for them to spend 2 months documenting this story only to find the camera has let them down.

http://www.onfilm.co.nz/editorial.asp?EditorialID=23920&src=H

Scott Webster
www.rocketrentals.com

Zane Holmes using HDV!? i never thought i'd see the day.

V1P HDV capture into final cut pro.

Handheld - Not the best cinematography in the world. Don't flame me. I only work here.

Sequence setting is HDV 1080 50i - CAPTURE is only able to be set to HDV, so footage can only be brought in 1080 50i...which is how the camera records anyway, so no worries. When set to HDV 1080 25p footage requires rendering...not good so not done*

On playback it looks okay to me.

*NOTE - CAMERA SET TO 25P RECORDING*

Zane Holmes using HDV!? i never thought i'd see the day.

Not so much HDV but 25p. 1st choice was the HVR-Z1 but was going to de-interlace. The loss in resolution made him go to the DVX for 25p. HVX workflow was too hard for this project. Really wanted HD, managed to talk Sony into a V1, who want a Zane Holmes seal of approval. Back up camera is a DVX.

2 months on a sinking island should make good copy for Sony.

I'm pretty sure Zane was involved in the SPP/Prime TV 'Interrogation' series which was all Z1.

Ah fair enough, yea Zane has a thing for those DVX's.

Interlaced footage looks good, now all we need to see is some progressive from the v1p.

Do we know of which Auckland retailers have them in yet? Last time i checked DVT were very keen on them.

Just edited my above message: screen grabs were recorded at 25P

Best of luck fellas - V1 looked like a dream camera.

Update:

Dealer's camera show same reduced picture quality in 25P. Not just my camera is affected.

So if there are any US V1 owners out there could you record some 30P and see if you get similar results. 30P vs 60i how does it compare?


Everyone has assumed that the V1 can be clocked at 24, 25, 30, 50, and 60. If this is the case, then all frame rates should/must have the same quality.

But there is an alternative: the camera can be clocked at 24, 50, and 60. These all have the same quality. Then 25 is "derived" from 50 and 30 is "derived" from 60. I say "derived" because I have no idea what process would be used. You say it could be deinterlaced, but since the video is already 50p or 60p that makes no sense.

We'll soon see if 30p looks "bad."

Trouble is that there's more going on here than a simple reduction in vertical resolution.

Everyone has assumed that the V1 can be clocked at 24, 25, 30, 50, and 60. If this is the case, then all frame rates should/must have the same quality.

But there is an alternative: the camera can be clocked at 24, 50, and 60. These all have the same quality. Then 25 is "derived" from 50 and 30 is "derived" from 60. I say "derived" because I have no idea what process would be used. You say it could be deinterlaced, but since the video is already 50p or 60p that makes no sense.

We'll soon see if 30p looks "bad."

I know Steve, it's unfathomable to me. The thing is when a live output from the component cables is viewed on a HD production monitor there is no visual difference between 50i and 25P. The difference comes after HDV compression either to tape or live out through FW. The HDV compression engine is over smoothing the image. If you have a look at the clip on shapidshare you can see this perfectly well. There is a lot of mosquito noise around edges. In 25P the edges in an image "buzz" which they don't in 50i.

The oil paint effect is in those images posted Matthew. You can see high frequency filtering of the tarmac in the foreground. The effect is not so obvious in Matthew's pictures as mine because there a huge areas of low detail.

I am perplexed by the whole thing but at least my dealer is on board now so I am close to a resolution.

Safe travels

TT

A disclaimer: I know little about the electronics that's behind these wonderful machines so take what follows with a spoon of salt.
First a prediction: 30P would look just as bad. But how come 24P looks good? Because the tape must be “aware” that it is a 2:3 pull-down so it knows the frames are progressive. On the other hand, there is probably no indication that the movie is taped in 30P: Sony promises compatibility of 30P with all its existing HDV products. That places an unacceptable burden on the MPEG2 encoder since it probably takes into account the fact that the lower and upper fields are time shifted when analyzing any motion. With 30P the two fields are all of a sudden “unexpectedly” synchronized so if the encoder takes the time shift that's not there into account it would make a mess. What we are seeing might be a result of Sony's attempt to deal with this potential problem.

.
First a prediction: 30P would look just as bad. But how come 24P looks good?

Either 25p and 30p are generated differently than 24p OR the NLE is chroma filtering the two interlace "fields" which is fine for interlace video, but damaging to progressive where the two fields are not fields but simply odd and even lines.

If this is the case, it should look fine being played from a V1, but look bad if processed by certain NLEs. Does it?

DSE -- how does Vegas deal with 25p and 30p verses 50i and 60i. It seems the chroma filter for interlace should be turned off for 25p and 30p.

What we are seeing might be a result of Sony's attempt to deal with this potential problem.

There is another problem then. And it is not exactly technical. My money has been printed tack sharp and its not the result of my attempt to get it printed in a color printer with slight "oil paint" looks.
Sorry for being emotional.

My local Dealer has steered me away from the Sony V1 in favour of the A1 Canon for progressive mode, but I thought that the Sony was actually a true progressive mode and the Canon was mock. I was happier with the Canon purely for Lowlight reasons but I had no idea that he may have been right about the prog mode as well!

My local Dealer has steered me away from the Sony V1 in favour of the A1 Canon for progressive mode, but I thought that the Sony was actually a true progressive mode and the Canon was mock. I was happier with the Canon purely for Lowlight reasons but I had no idea that he may have been right about the prog mode as well!

the canon 25f is not a true progressive mode but it's really really nice. no visible differences. you just loose 10% of resolution which is nothing with the high resolution of this cam. and you can use all shutter speeds. it's just a different way to achieve progressive. i would call fake progressive sony's old cineframe. not canon's 25f.

My local Dealer has steered me away from the Sony V1 in favour of the A1 Canon for progressive mode,

You dealer couldn't have steered you away from the Sony because of "progressive" because there is no data that proves there is a problem. Two reports mean nothing.

Moreover, as we found with JVC -- the Sony UK mangement may accept product that that the Sony USA or Sony German management would not. Those getting product before the USA seem to have more problems.

And, it very well may be the NLE that is being used. Your dealer could not possibly know that which none of us knows.

Steve,

The progressive mush IS recorded to tape. Just plugged camera into DELL monitor. Its not a very high quality component input on this monitor but it is absolutely enough to show the difference between Progressive and Interlaced. So it's _not_ the NLE that is destroying the image. In fact checking here shows the loss in detail is present in live camera mode as well.

Sony UK are aware of the problem and have asked me to provide a tape which will be in the post this afternoon. They are anxious to nip this in the bud ASAP.

I am having loads of issues with capturing into FCP only now being able to get 12-24 frames in to the timeline. It seems every time a new GOP is started the log/capture loses sync.

To the worried,

I am sure that Sony will sort the problem ASAP.

From the amazing rendition of colours to the pin sharp resolution in 50i mode I can assure you this camera will be the mutts nuts when these teething problems are fixed. This camera is proof positive that one simply does not need a plethora of image adjustments to create a mesmerising picture. It is simply one of the best images I have ever seen, in 50i, and is high definition in every sense of the phrase. This camera renders colours so incredibly accurately you will be astonished and it is completely devoid of any "manufacturer's look." It sets a new benchmark for compact HD cameras and begins to knock on the door of the XDCAMs. I am sure XDCAM owners will pick up one of these for B-roll.

Let's not get down the problem is in hand.

Peace.

Yes, hopefully this will get solved. In all other respects the V1 is a brilliant camera, and yes, it would make a superb B-camera to an XDCAM HD.

I've been watching this thread with great interest. I'm over in NTSC land, and I've been interested in the V1 for its 30p capability.

Glad to see Sony's taking you guys seriously. Hopefully, this will be like the "audio hiss" problem with early PD-150s and VX2000s, and will be corrected promptly.

With all the technology that's crammed into these tiny little cameras, I'm often amazed they work at all.

Just out of curiousity, are you guys trying to remove the pulldown?

heath

That's seriously ugly footage - that has to be a defect. I can't imagine any camera company designing a camera to make footage like that - it's far worse than any other issue I recall seeing. It will be interesting to find out from Sony exactly what is afoot.

So far this is more of an isolated incident, so until we see if others are having problems, let's not jump to conclusions that all units are like this.

heath

So far this is more of an isolated incident, so until we see if others are having problems, let's not jump to conclusions that all units are like this.

heath

I think we can safely conclude it's more than a individual unit problem - the review unit posted by Simon had it, this unit and Tony's dealer's other units. To me that makes a "batch" problem as this point. Other V1e's may be trouble free and hopefully more reports and Sony will chime in (and 30p on US units can be tested).

I tend to think these issues are educational in learning how imagers/DSP etc. work despite the short term pain for those affected.

I think we can safely conclude it's more than a individual unit problem - the review unit posted by Simon had it, this unit and Tony's dealer's other units. To me that makes a "batch" problem as this point. Other V1e's may be trouble free and hopefully more reports and Sony will chime in (and 30p on US units can be tested).

I tend to think these issues are educational in learning how imagers/DSP etc. work despite the short term pain for those affected.
I thought it was only 2-3 units. Besides, I thought Simon's was a prototype.

heath

I thought it was only 2-3 units. Besides, I thought Simon's was a prototype.

heath

Perhaps I misunderstood Tony - I thought his dealer confirmed all units the dealer had were affected.

Tony, can you confirm?

heath

Glad to see Sony's taking you guys seriously.

I called the UK retailer today who was about sending my order. I told them about the issue - they were not aware yet. After checking this thread they offered me not to proceed with the order and refund my money.
Moreover they immediately called Sony UK who were aware and said they were working on the solution and they will fix all the cameras with this problem either with a firmware update on Memory Sick (?) or by replacing it with no further cost to the costomer. Well, this is what the retailer guy said. I have not spoken with Sony UK myself.
Hope this is in line with what Tony has got from Sony.

Memory Stick of course...

I called the UK retailer today who was about sending my order. I told them about the issue - they were not aware yet. After checking this thread they offered me not to proceed with the order and refund my money.
Moreover they immediately called Sony UK who were aware and said they were working on the solution and they will fix all the cameras with this problem either with a firmware update on Memory Sick (?) or by replacing it with no further cost to the costomer. Well, this is what the retailer guy said. I have not spoken with Sony UK myself.
Hope this is in line with what Tony has got from Sony.

Zsolt, that is _exactly_ what I was told. It appears the issue is wider than a few units. No one other than Sony know the full extent of the problem. But at least now they are aware of the problem and are working hard on a fix.

I am soooo much happier now. 'cause this camera kicks a$$.

Anyway, just going to update the radipshare thread with another link to some 50i v 25p comparison shots. Full res shots of foliage and red brick houses and slate roofs.

Keep smiling

TT

The first time I tried to capture in FCP from the V1 I had what I thought were regular "drop outs," or breaks running right through the footage...until I opened up the LCD and saw it playing back fine in camera. It sounds like the same MPEG "lost in translation" happening on the mac.

Rewinding didn't help, but turning the camera off and on again did. The footage I recorded was just after some other test material on the tape (also HDV, but I didn't record it) - I hit capture now whilst still on this previous material - which FCP understood fine - there was then a break on the tape which then crossed over into my test material which went all to poo. After I tended to the issue it never came back.

Can't do any more tests as we only had the camera in our hands for a short period of time.

The first time I tried to capture in FCP from the V1 I had what I thought were regular "drop outs," or breaks running right through the footage...until I opened up the LCD and saw it playing back fine in camera. It sounds like the same MPEG "lost in translation" happening on the mac.

Rewinding didn't help, but turning the camera off and on again did. The footage I recorded was just after some other test material on the tape (also HDV, but I didn't record it) - I hit capture now whilst still on this previous material - which FCP understood fine - there was then a break on the tape which then crossed over into my test material which went all to poo. After I tended to the issue it never came back.

Can't do any more tests as we only had the camera in our hands for a short period of time.

It's an issue that is known about. Try using a different firewire driver in the Audio/Video Setting menu. I had the same problem and gave up trying to get it to work again and use AIC as a workaround.

Capture using AIC and everything will be fine. The drop-out occurs at the start of a new GOP. We'll require Apple to update FCP before we can batch capture.

TT

Also just to double check with you Tony -
When feeding straight from camera into a monitor you say it looks fine.
When capturing into final cut looks not so fine

But what about playing back off tape straight to a monitor?

I've had no problems capturing 24p (packaged in a 60i stream) footage from the V1u with Final Cut Pro v. 5.1.2, so I wonder what's happening.

heath