Hi guys

I have just done my first proper outing with my HV10 (PAL 50hz version) - Im pretty new to camcorders in general so dont expect anything too special! I am really pleased with the results from today though and thought I would share a few samples. I played around between auto and Priority using both 25 and 50 shutter speed modes in priority mode. I played with the manual exposure too which is easy to do while shooting. I have noticed that the 25 shutter mode doesnt produce any horizontal interlacing artifacts in VLC but doesn't seem quite as sharp as 50 shutter speed.

These clips are raw m2t samples captured using Vegas 7.b

First off here's a small macro clip using full auto:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/7adad1/

This one by shows the change in exposure in the clouds by the beach:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/d486bc/

A small sample of the Sun over the water - odd contrast:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/755fa2/

Another small sample showing some reds and yellows (boats on a beach) shot in full auto:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/c5a056/

This one is at 50 shutter and full zoom. It was more difficult to kep the cam steady when in full zoom but this was also made worse by the fairly strong wind! Some nice blues here though:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/7a0cdf/

A fairly static shot:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/3f9eeb/

Slow pan following a boat with auto exposure:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/9c6b05/

Lastly a shot showing the vary speed zoom function (quite shaky due to wind):
http://www.filefactory.com/file/e2376f/

Let me know what you think - I will be away from home this coming week so wont be able to up any more for a few days but can up some more later as requested. Bear in mind that filefactory only keep the files for one week if they are not downloaded.

Cheers
Fergus

Thanks Fergus,
Really impressive images from such a small camera. Thanks for sharing.

I have noticed that the 25 shutter mode doesnt produce any horizontal interlacing artifacts in VLC but doesn't seem quite as sharp as 50 shutter speed.

Good stuff !

Those horizontal 'artifacts' are not realy 'artifacts' as such, but are intentionally there to make motion smooth on a television.

If you want to shoot at speed above 25 and wish to display the results on a computer monitor without seeing the interlacing - simply de-interlace the footage, VLC has some bulit in de-interlacing algorithms.

Thanks chaps.

Lee, why is it you see the horizontal lines on gottage higher than shutter speed 25 but not below? I do use the deinterlacing options in VLC but I dont think blend etc is as good as looking at 25 shutter speed footage? Also I have used the Dscaler IVTC mod with media player classic for viewing 60hz HDTV TS files at 24p (works really well!) I noticed that although not perfect using that set up seems to produce a more static image on pans rather than VLC's deinterlacing options (although resolution is lost)

Anyway here are a couple more clips within a few seconds of each other on the beach at sunset.

This one is 50 shutter speed:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/f33443/

This one is 25 shutter speed:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/2b31f0/

You can see that the image is brighter but possibly not as sharp at 25

Fergus, absolutely beautiful footage! Great job and thanks for posting these. It's great that you are shooting at the different settings and posting that, great info.

Thanks chaps.

Lee, why is it you see the horizontal lines on footage higher than shutter speed 25 but not below?

A TV (PAL) draws one interlaced field every 50th of a second, lets call the first pass down the tv screen the odd lines, leaving a gap between each line.

It then fills in the even lines in the next 50th of a second, drawing its second field between the odd lines.

So it take 1/25th of a second to draw a complete frame in two passes.

These two passes are 1/50th of a second apart.

If you were filming a football being kicked through the air, the second field (the even lines) drawn a 50th of a second after the first would show the ball a little further on that the first field (the odd lines).

When this happens on TV it just looks like smooth motion, but a computer screen instead of drawing one field then the next field a 50th of a second later like TV - simply draws (or displays) the whole frame (two fields) at once so you see the football in two places at once - and these two positions (the first and second field) are interlaced - that is, the first position is drawn in the odd vertical lines and the second in the even vertical lines.

The reason you do not see interlacing below 1/25th of a second is that the camera 'exposes' the sensor (CMOS in the HV10) for 1/25th of a second so both scans (the first and second field) record the same moment in time.

How do you guys open files on FilesFactory? I couldn't see any link.
Thank you!

A TV (PAL) draws one interlaced field every 50th of a second, lets call the first pass down the tv screen the odd lines, leaving a gap between each line.

It then fills in the even lines in the next 50th of a second, drawing its second field between the odd lines.

So it take 1/25th of a second to draw a complete frame in two passes.

These two passes are 1/50th of a second apart.

If you were filming a football being kicked through the air, the second field (the even lines) drawn a 50th of a second after the first would show the ball a little further on that the first field (the odd lines).

When this happens on TV it just looks like smooth motion, but a computer screen instead of drawing one field then the next field a 50th of a second later like TV - simply draws (or displays) the whole frame (two fields) at once so you see the football in two places at once - and these two positions (the first and second field) are interlaced - that is, the first position is drawn in the odd vertical lines and the second in the even vertical lines.

The reason you do not see interlacing below 1/25th of a second is that the camera 'exposes' the sensor (CMOS in the HV10) for 1/25th of a second so both scans (the first and second field) record the same moment in time.

Thanks Lee that was a really clear explanation.

Does this mean that when in 25 shutter priority mode the cam is actually recording a truly progressive 25 fps image?

Javier - I think if you create a free account you should see a download option in blue half way down the page

Cheers
Fergus

Javier,

I agree that filefactory is annoying - I usually have to close 3 extra popup windows after I download a "free" file. Nevertheless, thanks for Fergus for sharing this stuff with us. Sometimes the links are hard to see amid all the text ads, but scroll down a bit and you should see this:

--------------------------------------------------------

Here are your downloading options:

Upgrade to FileFactory Premium!
(Faster download speeds, pause and resume support, download accelerator support, multiple simultaneous downloads and more!)

Download for free with FileFactory Basic

--------------------------------------------------------

(NOTE: sometimes I don't see the above, and instead I see a message stating that there are "no free downloads slots available," or something to that effect. Wait a few minutes/hours and refresh the page.)

The first and last lines from the excerpt above are links (shown in BLUE in my browser) - I click on the last line ("Download for free...") which brings me to a new page - I scroll down a bit again, and click on the words "Click here to begin your download" (again in blue).

Hope that helps,

Jim

p.s. I didn't have to create a free account, either.

How do you guys open files on FilesFactory? I couldn't see any link.
Thank you!


File factory is terrible !! I can never see the link and I have been using it for a while !!!!

It is usually blue text in the middle of the page, they should have a big red button with 'download' on it, terrible design, but it's free !

Does this mean that when in 25 shutter priority mode the cam is actually recording a truly progressive 25 fps image?


A very uncontrollable, limited, possibly unusable progressive recording that you can only use on very very low shutter speeds and with limited exposure options, kinda' yes !

It is really a trick to squeeze a psuedo-progressive image from a non-progressive camera, you will have much better results by shooting on a higher shutter speed, getting your exposure looking good and de-interlace in one of the many (often free) bits of software floating around on the internet.

A very uncontrollable, limited, possibly unusable progressive recording that you can only use on very very low shutter speeds and with limited exposure options, kinda' yes !

It is really a trick to squeeze a psuedo-progressive image from a non-progressive camera, you will have much better results by shooting on a higher shutter speed, getting your exposure looking good and de-interlace in one of the many (often free) bits of software floating around on the internet.


Cheers Lee - Im pretty new to the world of camcorders - is shutter speed 50 a good option for general shooting? I couldnt really tell much difference when using the higher shutter speeds? What should I use them for? I found the 25 speed no less clear than deinterlacing 50 shutter material?

Apologies for using filefactory - I know its a nightmare! If anyone can point me in the direction of a better alternative I will gladly up some more footage with any requests for settings etc in the coming weeks

Cheers
Fergus

I got it!!

Thank you guys!! The thing is that in most of the times it showed a red test, a kind of glitch.

File downloading!! Thank you!

For normal video 50i is alright, for cinema true progressive is better than de-interlace. Remember, things on a big screen look more obvious the closer you get to the screen, then the relatively small 40inch+ wide screen TV's. I am currently looking at 30-32inch as one of the desktop monitors.

For 25fps, you can look at variable Neutral Density Filters to get exposure right. The 25fps and audio can be slowed to 24fps. The biggest problem is that cinema usually use 180 degree shutters (which is 48th of a second) so you need 50th second shutter before slow down. For 24p type applications, the 1/25th a second shutter is a curiosity, but otherwise you don't really need it.

Cheers Lee - Im pretty new to the world of camcorders - is shutter speed 50 a good option for general shooting?

Yes !

Perfect.


I couldnt really tell much difference when using the higher shutter speeds? What should I use them for?

If it is bright enough (sunny day or indoors with a couple of £6.50 500 watt halogen lights from B&Q pointed at the mother in law/girlfriend/cat) the really high speeds are great for capturing high speed motion - each frame will be frozen in time with zero motion blur at the really high end (the shutter was not open long enough for the light to smear across the sensor).

Stick the HV10 on 1/2000th and film some people running in a sprint, each frame will be cyrstal clear with no motion blur, good for analyzing your golf swing. The look of high shutter speed footage looks great to me, loads of bits of 'Saving Private Ryan' are shot on high shutter speeds if you know that film.

If there is not enough light around (more likely to happen indoors) for high shutter speeds the shutter speed indicator on the scree will flash, if you don't know what I am talking about put your hand over the lens and watch the LCD screen, that flashing thing is the shutter speed indicator : ) .


I found the 25 speed no less clear than deinterlacing 50 shutter material?

At 1/25th you are almost guaranteed to have a fair bit of motion blur in your footage, I challenge you to film with 1/25th on a sunny day outdoors, even with the exposure turned all the way down it is likely to be too bright and blow the image out in all but the darkest areas.

Apologies for using filefactory - I know its a nightmare! If anyone can point me in the direction of a better alternative I will gladly up some more footage with any requests for settings etc in the coming weeks

Me too, file factory stinks !

For normal video 50i is alright, for cinema true progressive is better than de-interlace. Remember, things on a big screen look more obvious the closer you get to the screen, then the relatively small 40inch+ wide screen TV's. I am currently looking at 30-32inch as one of the desktop monitors.

For 25fps, you can look at variable Neutral Density Filters to get exposure right. The 25fps and audio can be slowed to 24fps. The biggest problem is that cinema usually use 180 degree shutters (which is 48th of a second) so you need 50th second shutter before slow down. For 24p type applications, the 1/25th a second shutter is a curiosity, but otherwise you don't really need it.

Yeah! Fergus you heard him, don't forget about the 180 degree angle of the shutter on the projectors used in cinema when they project the celluloid film conversions at 24 frames per second of your video footage.


;)

Yes !

Perfect.




If it is bright enough (sunny day or indoors with a couple of £6.50 500 watt halogen lights from B&Q pointed at the mother in law/girlfriend/cat) the really high speeds are great for capturing high speed motion - each frame will be frozen in time with zero motion blur at the really high end (the shutter was not open long enough for the light to smear across the sensor).

Stick the HV10 on 1/2000th and film some people running in a sprint, each frame will be cyrstal clear with no motion blur, good for analyzing your golf swing. The look of high shutter speed footage looks great to me, loads of bits of 'Saving Private Ryan' are shot on high shutter speeds if you know that film.

If there is not enough light around (more likely to happen indoors) for high shutter speeds the shutter speed indicator on the scree will flash, if you don't know what I am talking about put your hand over the lens and watch the LCD screen, that flashing thing is the shutter speed indicator : ) .




At 1/25th you are almost guaranteed to have a fair bit of motion blur in your footage, I challenge you to film with 1/25th on a sunny day outdoors, even with the exposure turned all the way down it is likely to be too bright and blow the image out in all but the darkest areas.



Me too, file factory stinks !


Cheers Lee - really helpful stuff
When I get home I will try some stuff out with various shutter speeds. I think I have been confused with shutter speed and fps. So shutter speed controls the clarity of each field although it always records 50 interlaced fields per second? How do I view each frame to see how clear or blurred it is if the camera doesnt record individual frames?

I did include a couple of sampels shot at 1/25 above and yes they are brighter - on the beach scene I reduced the exposure to compensate - if you look at the waves they are not as sharp as the 1/50 footage but I didnt notice much blur.

Great tips though - thanks again.
Should I invest in a ND filter? What benefit will that give me over reducing the exposure manually?

Sorry for all the questions!

By the way I do know SPR and love the look of that film!!! Now if I could get my HV10 to priduce footage like that I would be happy... lol

FileFactory
MegaUpload
FlyUpload


I find them all to be about the same. All make you look at advertisements by forcing you to look hard to find the download link. I don't notice any difference in download times.

The service is free. Hard to complain especially since the files they host are usually big.

Cheers Lee - really helpful stuff
When I get home I will try some stuff out with various shutter speeds. I think I have been confused with shutter speed and fps.

fps = 25 pictures a second or more accurately 50 fields (half height interlaced frames) a second.

shutter speed = how long the sensor is exposed to the image coming in through the lens - long periods (1/50 and below) allow more light to fall on the sensor (if you sit in the sun for 1/50th of a second you will get a better tan than if you sit in the sun for 1/2000th of a second) - shorter periods with the shutter open will let less light in (darker image) but will 'freeze' things more as the image is caught in a 'single' position and the shutter closes before it has moved on (all very analogous but you get the idea).

So shutter speed controls the clarity of each field although it always records 50 interlaced fields per second?

Yes, shutter speed controls 'clarity' - not focus but how much time is captured in the 1/50th of a second the shutter is taking to record one field - you can get it to use the whole 1/50th of a second or perhpas just 1/250th of this 1/50th. Shutter speed can also be used to control exposure by controlling the amount of light hitting the sensor.

How do I view each frame to see how clear or blurred it is if the camera doesnt record individual frames?

A frame here refers to two fields - play your movie back in anything like quicktime player, MPEG Streamclip, VLC etc and as you step through the frames or stop on one frame you will be looking at two fields or one frame.

Great tips though - thanks again.
Should I invest in a ND filter? What benefit will that give me over reducing the exposure manually?

A ND filter will allow you to use slower shutter speeds in situations where there is too much light - normally a slower shutter speed would allow too much light in to the sensor but a ND filter can get around this - of course the aperture has to be borne in mind here as a preferable tool - but you may wish to keep the apature wide open to get a shallow depth of field (you know big close up of flower with the background out of focus)

Sorry for all the questions!

Sorry for all the answers!

By the way I do know SPR and love the look of that film!!! Now if I could get my HV10 to priduce footage like that I would be happy... lol

You would be suprised what a decent de-interlacing plug-in and an afternoon of grading can achieve.