I need your opinion. I would like to replace my bulky HD10 with something smaller. I am prosumer “family shooter”, most of the time outdoor. I like 720p but willing to move to 1080i if in a smaller format. The biggest and most expensive camera I am willing to get is A1U.

Is there anything coming new and worth waiting for?

In a consumer range, which one is the best choice?
Sony HDR-SR1
Sony HDR-HC3
Sony HDR-UX1 - I do not like DVD mediums
Canon HV10 - people suggest getting an audio recoding device for this one, I am fine with that...

I know A1U will beat any of these….Anything else worth considering?

I am thinking to go low budget with HC3 and upgrade later for a similar format capable 720p camera. Any thoughts?

Please do not stone me for this post. :)

Hi

There is a New JVC Everio HD . 1st of the year or before spring. I think it is going to be 720p and 1080p ( I read it somewere), but when you use the cam as play back it will output only in 1080i. format is unknown at this time far as file type. The cam looks great. If the manual controls are like the small GZ-505US it is going to be great. I have the GR-HD1 and the 505 and Will be getting the new HD also here is a link, there are some new updates out there just use search

www.slashcam.com/news/single/JVC-hints-HD-Everio-5988.html
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-12518-CEATEC+-+JVC+Everio+3CCD+HD.html

From B&H Photo:

Canon HV10- $999
Zoom H4 Recorder- $300
2gb Lexar SD memory card- $100

Canon HV10 from most other places (ie. Best Buy, Fry's, ect.) - $1399

The best deal is from B&H Photo. =)

The A1U is okay but only if you want "some" manual control, the best part is the ring on the front for manual focus/zoom. Other than that, you may as well go with the HV10 setup. I'm not sure if you intend to sell your HD10U or not but if I were in your shoes, I'd keep it, it's a historic peice of digital video history, plus it's a decent camera.

Also, the HC3 could be an option, but I'd recommend the A1U over that one simply because it gives you more manual controls. Now if you were doing studio stuff, then the HC3 wouldn't be bad with an Intesity card.

Leonard:

Nice links! Looks like a nice new JVC product. I personally thought they were dead due to ther financial troubles.

Peter:

I have been looking for quite a while for a replacement for my GR HD-1. I have been considering the Canon XH A1 and will probably get it after prices drop off the MSRP level unless something else new comes out soon.

In my evaluation of m2t clips from all the best HD camcorders, I discovered that the very best GR HD-1 footage was equivalent to most of what's currently available up to $3-4K. Of course the average footage is not always that great. So it makes it very hard to justify spending $4K for a new camera at this point for me.

Good luck in your search!

Thanks to all, this is all great stuff! I think I will wait and see. Decisions decisions decisions ...the fear is that once new cameras are released prices of used HD1/10 will fall like a rock making the switch more painful (expensive)....

Thanks to all, this is all great stuff! I think I will wait and see. Decisions decisions decisions ...the fear is that once new cameras are released prices of used HD1/10 will fall like a rock making the switch more painful (expensive)....

They are already very low.

B stock HD10s were selling for $1,100 on the JVC website. I look at my GR HD1 as my B camera or a backup.

Too good to practically give away and too low value to sell.

Jeff

Hi

There is a New JVC Everio HD . 1st of the year or before spring. I think it is going to be 720p and 1080p ( I read it somewere), but when you use the cam as play back it will output only in 1080i. format is unknown at this time far as file type. The cam looks great. If the manual controls are like the small GZ-505US it is going to be great. I have the GR-HD1 and the 505 and Will be getting the new HD also here is a link, there are some new updates out there just use search

www.slashcam.com/news/single/JVC-hints-HD-Everio-5988.html
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-12518-CEATEC+-+JVC+Everio+3CCD+HD.html

Keep an eye on Nab as well, or one of the camera shows latter in the year. I think there is one around mid year, and one around august that you see stuff in.

I've settled the A1u both for more granular manual control and mostly for more extensive audio options. It was also cheaper than buying a porsche for my personal mid-life crisis. Way overkill for family videos IMO.

I think the decision you will want to make is how pro in prosumer you want to go. My A1u in automode does a fine job and I am finding I don't need to do as much manual as I intended, the auto does a great job for family videos.

I was also afraid 10x is not enough zoom for my wildlife photography. However, I have found acceptable for 90% of my needs and the other 10% is covered by the OEM 2x doubler. Overall, a much better situation than I thought it would be actually... mostly 'cause the video is so darn sharp, even on SD TV! I can tell you I am SO GLAD I went HD route over SD. You will be better setup for the future than with SD.

I do really like the audio flexibility, and likely would buy this again for this very reason. I am pretty picky about audio. I found the on-board mic's are far better than I expected them to be.

All the squawking about poor low light IMO is comparing commercial grade cams against this unit. If you are coming from consumer grade it's wonderful in low light -- blows all the consumer grade away in this area, except the old Sony TRV series... It is "as good" them. I did a side by side and I can vouch for this. Only other beef is the zoom is not good enough. Zooms too fast - can't creep zoom.

While I think the new Consumergrade Canon Camcorder is a nice piece of engineering, I am concerned how I would hold it. Not ergonomic. If you can work that out (to be fair, i mostly tripod my a1u, so this may be moot) I'd opin the either the hc3 or new canon would be just fine for you if all you want to do is shoot family stuff. Consider A1u if you need blackstretch and more manual and audio options.

I would bias towards small and light and against features and options for family cam. You want it simple to operate so the spouse is not intimidated (mine is) and portable enough so you will want to take it everywhere and easy enough so it is not a hassle. You end up missing spontaneous moments if you have to fiddle with it too much. (I strip off everything and flip it to auto when we do disney-nice and portable.)

Be sure to budget for accessories:
Polarizer, batteries, maybe wideangle and definitly a set of legs with quick leveller (wildlife shoooting) is minimum stuff needed. Or wait for Consumer Electronics show in Jan(?)... sure to be more toys out there.


One other comment - I am currently using the a1u as a telecine for transfer of our old family Super8 films to video. It has stirred up a lot of great memories in my family as I show them bits and pieces of the production. Shoot as much as you can of your family. Someday thirty years from now, you will see it was SO worthwhile.

Most everyone who bought a HD-1/10 bought it because of it being progressive image. We will see how the Everio pans out, but other then that there simply is no under $3500 cam to replace the HD-1/10 yet on the market.

Hi

I don't think the Everio HD will replace the picture quality that can be produce from the HD 1/10 ( If you know how to use it) but I think it will fill a gap that is needed and do a great job as long it is true. I read yesterday that the menu is going to be just like the new 505 with all the manual modes
if this is true that is great (better than the past). I have a 505 and it has a good menu. If it is even close to the HD1/10 in picture quality It will be better than a few of the new low cost HD's on the market for sale. I'm sure JVC will use some type of std file system and just add a new file ext. to the end ( .Mpg ) my 505 uses a .mod file in my explore I changed it to .mpg and it plays great.


I'm just hoping it is true and all the manual features are there. most of all it works right !!
Only time will tell !!!

Len

Why do you believe it will not eclipse the HD1/10 in picture quality? Sensors have evolve much in the last 4 years. I don't think it can help but have better latitude, and proper manual control can only help the operator get the most from what is there. As to what format, who knows. Many think it will be standard HDV, but that is only to tape. Being a HDD cam who knows. I think it wil be Mpeg2 to disk. Personally I can't believe JVC invented the prosumer HD market. Shocked the world with a true progressive HD cam over 4 years ago, then has done nothing, fully abandoning the low end HD market to Canon and Sony, with the market still asking for a complete progressive HD cam.

Maybe the sensor in the JVC might have improved between when it was first released and when it was last produced, due to manufacturer revisions. I asked this question about wherever the latest HD1/HD10 low light was better than the original months ago, but got no answers. So, has it improved, latitude and noise as well? In that case it "might" be within a smidgen of the Everio HD HDD. But according to an JVC man I talked to there is an single chip pro scheduled for middle of the year.

You notice that all their pre-announced plans for an Everio late last year got scrapped. It is likely they were waiting for something. Maybe to change codec, wait for new hardware, or maybe to change resolution (both 720p and 1080 were talked about last year). If it's not mpeg2, mpeg4, or VP, my guess would be h264 from Ambarella (which has not been used yet).

JVC did a good thing with releasing the HD1/10, but not at that price with the low gain, latitude, color, noise performance, and manual controls they did. It was only half there, like the Sanyo HD1 is only a quarter there. Now, things might have improved (codec and sensor revisions) and maybe it is almost to the level of more recent cameras.

It will be inreresting to see how much picture improvement we'll see in the forthcoming Sanyo HD2. And it's REALLY small!

I am still looking for the replacement..... I think that the "true" replacement would be PAL HV20 with 25fps. My understanding is that this would be true progressive video unlike NTSC HV20 with 24fps. Slower rate then the old HD10 but much higher resolution.

The PAL and NTSC both offer progressive modes (25p and 24p). Why would you think the 24p isn't true progressive but the 25p is? I don't understand your logic here.

Because 24p is recorded on 60i stream with 3:2 pulldown with interlaced artifacts. Pal cam with 25p doesn't suffer from this as the native steam, 50i, is double of 25.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#3:2_pulldown

Or did I get this all wrong?

The HV20 has a true progressive sensor cam. Just like the Sony V1 it records its 24p frames inside a 60i wrapper. Its 60i mode is derived from the progressive sensor and recorded as interlaced. This is the opposite of Canons other cams XLH1/XLA1 that have a native interlaced sensor and through some processing converted the stream to 24F and 30F modes.

There was an example of 24p video in the Canon HV10 / HV20 HDV Camcorders forums that showed unpleasant artifact as a result of 3:2 pulldown. Vegas can't remove them and you need to use other SW to remove these interlaced artifacts.

Here people refer to what I have mentioned:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=672718&postcount=15
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91349&highlight=24p

So the only quality and affordable cam with a true progressive video out of the box is Canon HV20 - PAL version.

I didn't see anything in those threads that mentioned any visual problems associated with the 24p. The fact is a proper NLE will remove the pull down on injest and you will be left with pure 24p in your timeline. No interlaced artifacts. No problems. The funny thing is I have heard of Vegas having some difficulty with this and their V1 uses the same 24p in 60i stream as the HV10. You might want to post a specific question in the editing forum on 24p from 60i. But as far as I know, there are no problems at all.

There is no issue with 24p as long as you do inverse telecine on the captured video and that is the trouble the HV20 owners go through (those who noticed it ;-) ).

Simply the HV20's 24p stream doesn't set some flag for vegas to recognize this stream. The fact that you can't play 24p progressively once transferred to PC seems like a big disadvantage of NTSC HV20.

Discussion about vegas not being able to "deinterlace" HV20 24p stream:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=93146

The video looks like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Three-two_pulldown_diagram_%28telecine%29.png

1st frame is progressive
2nd frame is progressive
3rd frame in interlaced
3rd frame in interlaced
5st frame is progressive

It seems that many do not realize all this...

I believe most people on this site do recognize this. It's just a flag issue. From what I understand the HV20 is no different than a DVX in how it carries its picture (other than its HD and not DV). It's just that Canon seemed to have made a glitch in not using flags (which they seem to have left the option open because it is possible to do a firmware update on these cams). The HV20 is a true progressive scan cam. Yes it might be a disadvantage at the moment...but this 60i wrapper i believe is done because of NTSC standards (not sure).

Edit: but using this wrapper does not mean it does not have "truly" progressive sensors.

Peter, your first link again refers to Vegas, and as I stated there apparently is a limitation in that software. Not a limitation of the cam. As far as your second link, it appears to be related to an original interlaced source which the HV20 is not. The cam is not producing an interlaced frame but a true progressive frame directly a result of its progressive CMOS sensor. Proper software would simply remove the pull down and you would have 24p of pristine frames to edit as I stated before. Well if your software supports it that is.

Ken,

HV20 faces the same task as when transferring motion picture film into electronic form. In both cases, HV20 and motion picture, the source are progressive frames.

The tasks is to transfer these frames into a device or medium. In both cases the native recoding format is interlaced hence the progressive frames must be encoded somehow to fit into these interlaced frames.

Also there is a "Frame rate differences" issue. While with 24p the full frame rate is 24 frames per second with the recording device or medium the frame rate is 60i (30 full frame per second). So for every second you need 6 new frames. In other words for every 4 24p frames you need 5 frames to be encoded into 60i medium or device. As mentioned in Wikipedia: These four frames are “stretched” into five by exploiting the interlaced nature of NTSC video. This process is called "3:2 pulldown".

The result is a mix of progressive and like interlaced fames. This is still better than native interlaced video but far cry from progressive.

You can't play such video on your computer, progressive screen or interlaced screen and call it progressive unless these can do reverse 3:2 pulldown.

This issue needs to be fixed so NLE recognize such format. Also we need a media player which would do reverse 3:2 pulldown for PC and also firmware upgrade for all those TV screens (probably not going to happen).

In the mean time NTSC HV20 can't for my purpose replace HD10 but PAL version ov HV20 can.

This cam is a consumer cam and consumers can't play the advertised 24p format correctly. Why this is one heck of a cam I can't help it but to criticize Canon for this issue. For me all I would need is a free media player for PC and NLE will be fixed one day in this century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

So it is simply a matter of having supported software. I would believe the Cineform software should handle the format. It has supported the V1's modes from day one.

http://www.cineform.com/products/Aspect-Prospect.htm#Features

It lists telecine removal (24p from 60i) as a standard feature. I have only ever edited HDV with AspectHD, and know that they always support every HDV format from every cam correctly. I didn't realize there was such issues with other software. I don't understand how Vegas doesn't have this feature as their V1 uses the exact same mode as the HV20.
As far as media players I would again make the assumption that VLC VideoLan player would handle the files correctly. Does it?