Whats the best camcorder for 35mm adapters. I did have the Panasonic HVX-200 but I have sent it back as digital artifacts keep appearing when using the P2 cards and this is when using it without the adapter. So I am now looking to buy a new camcorder but before I do I would like to hear everyones view on the range out there. The most popular among 35mm adapter users is the Sony Z1 and Panasonic DVX100. Then there is the promising JVC range that I believe offers true 24f (I might be wrong). Then there is the new Canon XL-H1, XH-G1 and XH-A1.

What would you choose if you had the choice? What really is the best camcorder to use for film making with a 35mm adapter? Excluding the HVX-200.

lol I think an absolute like "what is the best camcorder" is a nearly impossible question to answer. It depends on your needs. What adapter are you using? Do you need low light capability? You're not going to find someone that owns a DVX, a Z1, GS400, XL1, XL2, and H1 and can compare them. Everyone's going to say their camcorder suits them fine, they like it, etc. you should buy one. The best way is to find the nicest camera that suits your needs and budget and use it. There are very nice camcorders out there, and there are very nice adapters to go with them. A LetusXL on an XL2 might fair just as well as a DVX with a Brevis. They're going to have different characteristics. Adapters are made for camcorders, not the other way around.

A complete answer such as "FX1 is the best to use with an adapter, Tony," is very naiive.

Well, I don't know about your artifacts problem with the HVX... mine works perfectly.

Right now I think there are only two pro/prosumer cameras that shoot HD at true 24p: JVC HD100 and Panasonic HVX200. The ONLY two reasons I went with the HVX is (1) HDV's long render times and (2) DVCPro colorspace.

The upcoming JVC HD250 looks promising (though expensive). I'd consider getting the HD250 for the in camera flip function, the possibility of using a Letus-like adapter w/ relay lens, the standard AB gold mount battery, and it's great ergonomics.

I did have the Panasonic HVX-200 but I have sent it back as digital artifacts keep appearing when using the P2 cards and this is when using it without the adapter.

Really Tony, it comes a bit surprising! Can You put some examples on wire.

I for one have never been a fan of the HVX-200, and it has something to do with the look and the colors which seem to always lean towards a green-ish hue. But it's just a matter of taste. However, if you were going with the P+S Mini35, the M2 from RedRock, or the Letus, I'd say the HVX-200 is the one camera that seems to give the least headaches and yields very satisfactory results.The results seem better than those you get with other cameras. I personally am a fan of the JVC cameras 'cause I find their 24p image to be more "filmic" than that of the HVX-200; plus I like the colors. I'lll be purchasing the HD200u when it comes out in December. I'll be using it with my REdRock M2. I'll see how that turns out. I've already tried my M2 with a HD100u (which I sold) and results while quite good, were never as impressive as those I saw from the HVX-200.

Frank,

I have sent the camera back and I have been refunded. I didnt keep any footage as it wasnt that great due to the artifacts. The camera was looked at and I was told that it was most likely some fault in the transfering of data to the P2 card. Having paid out £3,500 + P2 card I am not chancing it again, I just don't trust transfering data to memory cards, its still a new concept with video capture where as HDV, DVCAM is a tried, tested and a more reliable method of video capture (so far). My camera may of been a one off but its enough to make me change.

I know all cameras work differently with different adapters but I would just like to know what cameras have the best functions and features along with the best formats for film making then that way it will help me compare them. Im still going to test all of them but some recommendations and experiences would be helpful.

What camcorders offer true 24p? I know JVC does. Am I right in understanding that the Panasonic DVX100 offers 24p? If so, isnt there a new version of the DVX100: DVX100B. Whats the difference?

SD cams w/24p: Canon XL2 and Panasonic DVX100B.
HD/SD cams w/24p: JVC HD110 and Panasonic HVX200.

Exclude the HVX200.

Which camera apart from the JVC range offers 24p, not 25p. It is my understanding that 25p adds 4% in length. Is there really much difference between the look of 24p and 25p?? Being new to this I really want to recreate the filmlook using my DiGi35 and I want to get the right camera to create this effect.

Hey Tony,

Is your website url not working?

The adapter is being renamed. Due to work I havent had time to make the website. Im hoping to have something ready for Feb 2007 but Im going away and wont be back until Jan 2007.

We have transferred thousands of P2 cards from hundreds of users....
I have heard of some glitches when transferring direct from P2 card through FCP. If your intent is to make and sell an adaptor then the HVX200 crowd will probably be the biggest user base in the 24p arena.
Once you get an adaptor built we would be happy to test with one of our HVX's.
Cheers

Although not out yet, the Sony V1 could be the one to look at, purely because of price, form factor, HDV tape recording and the progressive scan. I did have one on order but decided to buy a full size camcorder instead.

Exclude the HVX200.

Which camera apart from the JVC range offers 24p, not 25p. It is my understanding that 25p adds 4% in length. Is there really much difference between the look of 24p and 25p?? Being new to this I really want to recreate the filmlook using my DiGi35 and I want to get the right camera to create this effect.

If you're shooting HD, only the HD110 and HVX200 offer true 24p. Sony doesn't have a prosumer HD cam that shoots 24p (FX1 and Z1U shoot 60i). Canon's HD cams shoot 24f (and 25f) - not close enough IMO. If you write off the HVX200... your only HD option is the JVC HD110. The JVC also shoots 25p.

Also, it's really not hard to look this up yourself... are you looking for a particular answer?

If you're shooting HD, only the HD110 and HVX200 offer true 24p. Sony doesn't have a prosumer HD cam that shoots 24p (FX1 and Z1U shoot 60i). Canon's HD cams shoot 24f (and 25f) - not close enough IMO. If you write off the HVX200... your only HD option is the JVC HD110. The JVC also shoots 25p.

Also, it's really not hard to look this up yourself... are you looking for a particular answer?

Sam left off the Sony V1U due out in December. It will have 24p...

Thats the one Im waiting for - HVR-V1E. Any idea when its out in the UK???

Nevermind, just found out. 2nd December.

OK, now Im really confused. Look at this:

http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=1306

Now I still dont really understand PAL, NTSC, Interlaced and Progressive, Im still learning. Now I know that the Z1 is interlaced and can switch between PAL and NTSC yet this version of the Z1 is a PAL version. I thought they could do both? The description also says that is can capture DVCAM and DV images at 60i, 50i, 30, 25 or 24 frames per second, in either SD or HD. Is this true? The numbers 25 and 24 appear, is this once converted? Can someone explain this to me very briefly please. Whats the best way to create the film look without losing resolution, is it just best to get a camcorder that either has 24p or 25p and forget about interlaced camcorders?

I'll attempt explanation:

Pal is a broadcast standard used in Europe, with 50 transmitted lines per frame interlaced.

NTSC is broadcast standard used in US, with 60 transmitted lines per fram, interlaced.

Interlaced means that in the first half of the frame, every every other of the lines making up the full picture are scanned and transmitted. During the second half scan, the other lines are are scanned. So you end up with 60 half frames (NTSC) or 50 half frames (PAL). So you actually have 30 full frames or 25 full frames per second.

The interlaced effect can result in a jagged appearance.

So progressive came along to try to resolve that. Progressive means that for each frame scanned is a full frame.

Certain film makers like progressive because it looks and acts more like film.

They like 24p because it simulates the standard 24 frames per second of traditional cinema. 24p is 24 full frames per second. Up until recently, in the HD offerings, 1280 x 720 24p (720p) was the only available true 24p offering. The Sony HDVs did have a Cineframe offering that simulates 30p, 25p, and 24p, but there was not a lot of satisfaction with the result. Sony and Canon are now doing things in their new models within HDV that are pushing 24 out to the 1080i envelope, and there is a lot of argument about what kind of resolution loss there is.

The recommendation I have heard for the Sony Z1 and FX1 HDV cameras is to shoot in regular 60i HDV, at 1/60 of a second, and that you can subsequently convert that easily for film out to a 24 frame output by currently available programs, either on your own, or by contracting out...

I`d say that XH A1 would do quite well as NTSC version has 24f and the f mode will give you 24 progressive frames on tape. Resolution and noise reduction are the best on this cam. Lens sharpness full open is also better than on Z1.
As H1 and A1 have the exact same image quality then who dares to say that images from XL H1 frame mode are not usable for film out?

There was impressive low light comparsion between A1, HVX200 and even the PD170 in the A1/G1 forums - A1 was the best of course.
The Z1 which might have a slight edge in low light but it doesn`t have the resolution and progressive footage.

Cheers,
T

Having had loads of emails telling me to stick with the HVX200 I think I might just buy a new one (the last one was new but faulty) but instead of using P2 cards Im gonna get a new top spec MacBook Pro and capture directly to that (I need a new laptop anyway). Then when out on the field doing run and gun I might get a firestore but for now the MacBook Pro will do the trick.

Big mistake Tony!

The HVX-200 is a wonderful camera, but the direct out to a MacBook Pro (which I also own) won't give you true 24pN (native). To do that you need a P2 card.

You should definitely get at least one P2 card, as this makes shooting a breeze. I also own a P2 Store, and that makes transfering data between the P2 cards and the MacBook Pro a real pleasure. Using the program P2 Genie, I have had exactly ZERO difficulty getting data from the camera to the cards to the computer and into FCPro (the latest version of which directly imports all HVX-200 footage).

It is a killer system.

Stephen

Big mistake Tony!

The HVX-200 is a wonderful camera, but the direct out to a MacBook Pro (which I also own) won't give you true 24pN (native). To do that you need a P2 card.

You should definitely get at least one P2 card, as this makes shooting a breeze. I also own a P2 Store, and that makes transfering data between the P2 cards and the MacBook Pro a real pleasure. Using the program P2 Genie, I have had exactly ZERO difficulty getting data from the camera to the cards to the computer and into FCPro (the latest version of which directly imports all HVX-200 footage).

It is a killer system. I just hope I'm as happy with the Redrock M2. I ordered mine yesterday.

Stephen

I know HVX200 doesnt send 720P/24pN and 720P/30pN stream via firewire. Anyway Im gonna use 25p for most of my work. Most of the formats I'll be using are supported by FCP so I'm OK with that. I'll stream to external storage via firewire.

am very tempted myself to get an hvx200. It does sound like perfect adaptor camera. Especially with the variable frame rate...can you record the variable frame rate in 720p then down convert it in camera to dv onto the deck?

am very tempted myself to get an hvx200. It does sound like perfect adaptor camera. Especially with the variable frame rate...can you record the variable frame rate in 720p then down convert it in camera to dv onto the deck?
I've never done this, but I don't see why you couldn't.

Tony,

I have bought an HVX200. It's very nice and the picture quality uisng 25pn is superb. I am making it my main camera for using with my DOF adaptors. Although my Z1 is still going to be used too.

I have bought a p2 card and a firestore too.

Phil

I will get a firestore due to the problems Ive had with them plus I dont see the point of the P2 cards at the moment, they are just too expensive, for the price of an 8 and 4gb card you can get the firestore which will give you an extra 88gb. I ordered a new HVX200 on friday so should get monday. Where in London are you based Phil?

I'm near Richmond in West London.

Which Firestore did you get? I am wondering if the one made for the Pansonic is compatible with other cameras, or vice versa.

Im getting the FS-100 the one made for the Panasonic. Ive heard that the cineporter will be out in the next few months but Im not sure about that also there are meant to be advantages. The FS-100 is affiliated with Panasonic so I think I'll stay with that. As far as I know the FS-100 will only work with DVCPRO HD cameras because of the built software in the firestore so I dont think it will would with any other camera.

i think the best option is a p2 card or two and a p2 store. The P2 store solves most of the capacity issues with the cards and isnt attached to the hvx like the firestore is. It transfers the contents to its hard drive pretty quickly and takes the standard panasonic batteries

The trouble with the P2 cards is you will need at least 3 of them to get a continuing flow of HD footage depending on P2 to computer transfer rates (which differ), some computers can take upto 4 minutes to transfer a 4gb card meaning you'll have to stop until card is ready. This is only a problem for people who cant get hold of more then 2 P2 cards due to budgets or other reasons. I think the firestore is the best route as it is unlikely that you will film 100 mins without a break or scene change etc, giving you an opportunity to transfer before continuing your shoot.

True

But if you had two and a p2 store (my config) when one disc is out you slap it into the p2 store and it transfers 8gb in 8 minutes.

Unless you are shooting a long interview in full 1080p you would be fine.

I am using my hvx in 720pn mode to get a more filmic frame rate which gives me about 16 minutes a card, so my setup is fine for it.

If the firestore was smaller, took panasonic batts AND recorded in pn mode I would buy twelve (well one would be fine thinking about it!)

If you want to compare other adaptors let me know as I have both the M2 and a Brevis, I could give you my thoughts about the pros and cons of both!

8gb in 8mins is a bit close for comfort, doesnt give you much time to take out, swap, transfer to storage then swap again for continuous HD recording but for other formats yes its fine.

Maybe we should meet at the beginning of the year once the DiGi35 is complete and compare them all. I will be using the DiGi35 for a production in April 2007 so before then would be great. I'll email you.

What we need is another company or two to make the p2 cards to bring in some competition (JVC now make XDCAM discs to compete with Sony, end result, cheaper discs all round)

LOL!!!

Just seen BH Photo do an HVX200 package that comes with 5x 4gb P2 cards yes I said 5!!!! for $7999.95 (£4052.03)!!!!!!!

Why cant there be offers like that over here in th UK?????

4gb P2 cards are only £286 from BH Photo, shame their in USA though :-(

i have bought my 8gb p2 card and p2 store from B and H. Saving about 600 quid and that includes the duty and vat I will have to pay!

That was my concern - the duty. I have never purchased anything from the USA before. How do you pay the duty and what rate is it at, 17.5%?

What shipping option did you use?

Thanks,

With B and H I use ups. it takes about 2 days! The Duty and Vat works out about 20%. With most prices dollars for pounds and with an exchange rate of almost 2 dollars to a pound even with the 20% you are absolutely laughing!!

How does the duty and VAT work? Do I pay it before I get the goods?

Ive only purchased minor goods abroad and I have never paid duty...opps!! Only talking less then £30 but with P2 stuff its obviously a lot more.

Thanks,

What normally happens is Ups call you the day before it is delivered to take payment. If they cant get in touch with you they still try and deliver it but you have to pay the driver, either cash or credit card.

it's really painless, much better than Parcelforce (the USPS partner) who write to a couple of days after it arrives to inform you there are charges and they wont deliver it until you pay! Terrible system.

I get stuff from the states very often, it's really easy and worth doing if you like the idea of saving dosh!

Hi everyone,

Just checked emails, sorry I havent replied to anyone or posted for a while. Im currently filming in Australia with a couple of DiGi35's and wont be back for another 5-6 weeks. Will be back on as soon as Im back. Hope everyone had a great christmas and new year.

Thanks,