Well, I got the FS-4 HD today and have been doing some tests with it. When it comes to SD it works correctly and the clips are seamless but when I recorded HDV they were not.

I have version of 1.1.0

I uploaded a short video to my web page to show what is happening.

www.vidmus.com/firestore/firestore.wmv

I was recording a play from the timeline on Vegas 7. I used Vegas 7 to play back what I recorded as well. I know that the clips are properly aligned because of the color snapping that Vegas 7 uses.

I had copied the clips from the FS-4 HD to my computers hard drive. I did not use a tape in the camera while recording. I used the Sony HC1 Camera.

Now, as for FAT32, why in the world can't there be an option to format the drive using NTSF if one wants? I know and understand the reasoning for the FAT32 but for those who need one long clip and not have the above problem, the option of formatting in NTFS would be a great help.

Meanwhile this unit is obviously not ready for HDV primetime.

I have 7 days to return it to B&H if needs be so I need some answers pretty quick.

Thanks in advance,
Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

Well, I did another test. This time using a tape and the results are the same. I used a recording I made two years ago and recorded with my camera facing my HDV Television. The audio was by way of the camera mics.

The second sample file is:

www.vidmus.com/firestore/firestore2.wmv

He is saying "Cell Phone" and you can see his lips saying "phone" but the audio is not. Also there is an annoying jump in the picture.

*Rant=On*

This is like having a built-in automatic tape drop-out that happens every 9 minutes. This is 100% unacceptable. If that were an actual recording being made at church with the FS-4 HD, the recording would obviously be unuseable. And if I should need a tape to fix the recording every 9 minutes then what is the point of having an FS-4 HD in the first place?

Bottom line, because of the long GOP's in HDV, the FS-4 HD must have an option to format the hard drive using the NTFS system or proper HDV recording will not be possible.

Well, maybe a software update will fix it and maybe it won't but I would rather the fix be the NTFS format than waiting for a software fix that may or may not solve this problem. Also, it seems that the NTFS format would fix a number of other problems that have been reported with the FS-4 HD. Also one large file would be a whole lot easier to work with especially when editing.

I tried to download the latest software file from the web page and after I fill out the form and click on 'send', I get a blank grey screen and no download. I tried this 3 times before I gave-up!

*Rant=Off*

P.S. With the correct settings, the HDV will play back on the camera's LCD screen. I read somewhere here that someone had a problem doing so.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

On my JVC HD100 for the DR-HD100, the manual recommends to set the 'Back Space' to P-1394 instead of P-Tape.
It is a setting in the camera Menu --> Other --> Back Space.
Have you also a parameter to set on your Sony camera maybe?
Otherwise the recorded stream that the Harddisk records will contain discontinuities at every point that recording to tape is initiated.

On my JVC HD100 for the DR-HD100, the manual recommends to set the 'Back Space' to P-1394 instead of P-Tape.
It is a setting in the camera Menu --> Other --> Back Space.
Have you also a parameter to set on your Sony camera maybe?
Otherwise the recorded stream that the Harddisk records will contain discontinuities at every point that recording to tape is initiated.

Thanks for the reply. I don't think there is a setting on my Sony HC1 that is similar to what you have described.

I've done some more testing and so far SD are fine. HDV is where the problems are. In more testing I tried to load one of the .m2t files into Ulead's MSP8 and it crashed it big time. All I had to do is simply highlight the file and instant lock-up. So much for being compatible with Ulead. And since the files don't work properly with Vegas 7, the FS-4 HD is also not compatible with Vegas.

The FS-4 HD is simply NOT as it is advertised to be!

Even if they finally fix the problems, I still hope they will add the option to format the drive using NTFS so as to eliminate the need to break-up the video into small files. Yes, they could keep the option for FAT32 for those who want it. The added flexibility would be a major plus for their company and it would help the sales of the FS-4 HD.

Focus Enhancements needs to do a considerable amount of more beta testing with the FS-4 HD.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

Danny,

Per the FS NLE compatibility chart http://www.focusinfo.com/dynassets/documents/products/FS-NLEComp-DS-6Oct06-US.pdf , Ulead Media Studio Pro is only supported in DV25 mode. We have not qualified it with HDV .m2t files. I have also checked with our testing department and that last version of Vegas that we checked was Vegas Video 6, and that did work OK with .m2t files, except that TC was not supported. But Sony had told us this was a known issue with HDV in Vegas.

Also, you should not be getting gaps in the clips at the end of 2GB segments - but this may be a Vegas issue. You will see a small interruption in the beginning of any FS HDV recording when going to tape at the same time. This issue is on all HDV cameras with the exception of the JVC-HD100 series, which has a setting that eliminates the problem. Not too much Focus can do about it. At the beginning of recordings, the 1394 output is interrupted for a small period of time. I am told this is the encoder re-syncing with tape. If no tape is in the camera, this issue does not occur.

Hope that helps,

Matt

Doing more tests I have found that the changes made in Vegas 7 is causing the gaps to occur. The question is, what can be done to correct this? My suggestion is to allow the option of formatting the hard drive using NTFS so there would no longer be a need to split the files. Other than that, I don't know what the solution would be. As I have already stated, the option to format using FAT32 would still be there.

Even though the files will load seamlessly in Vegas 6, editing m2t files in vegas 6 is not easily done. I tried using HDLink to convert the files but that causes Windows Explorer to crash when trying to access them. I can only guess why that is so. Still, the time needed to convert the files to either Cineform's intermediate AVI files or to proxy files would negate the advantages of using the FS-4 HD. And once one updgrades and uses Vegas 7, they don't want to go back to Vegas 6 to be able to edit these files.

I did finally load the files into Ulead's MSP8 but the process of copying the files from the FS-4 HD to the computer and then converting them to an MPG program stream took almost 40 minutes using a test video of 1 hour and 15 minutes with 9 files. I guess if you added MSP8 to the list of compatible NLE's then you would need a little number "3" after it and then briefly explain at the bottom of the list that there would be an extended amount of processing time. But since Ulead's MSP8 is such a minor NLE I doubt it would be worth the effort.

As for the interuptions at the beginning of the file, this does not bother me because I shoot to edit and part of that means to start the recording sooner than needed.

Matt, as you well know by now, I keep harping about the option of formatting the hard drive using NTFS. I sincerely feel that this would solve a number of issues involving HDV. The reason is because the video would no longer need to be split into multiple files. The FAT32 system with multiple files is not a problem for SD video but is for HDV. Even with the time-code issues in another thread here, there would no longer be the problem of each file starting with a time code of zero if there was one long file. Someone please correct me if I am wrong on that point. So why not allow the option of formatting the hard drive using NTFS?

If it is absolutely impossible to allow the option to format using NTFS for whatever reason, would it be possible for your company to provide a software utility that would combine the files so there would not be any gaps in Vegas 7 and possibly provide the needed time code that others need? Not that NTFS would provide the time code but it would at least eliminate the split file problem that occurs with HDV.

My goal is to find solutions or at least help in that cause. Even if my suggestions are not doable, I hope there can be some ongoing and regular dialog here in an effort to solve the problems using HDV.

Thanks,
Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

I, for one, would like to see the ability to format to NTSC.

I, for one, would like to see the ability to format to NTSC.

I think you meant NTFS, Grin...

Don't feel bad, I do those little goofs all the time.

I sincerely hope Focus Enhancements will do this. The more people there are that request this, the more likely it will happen. It is one thing to wish for it, it is another thing to let them know we want it. The more the better.

Thanks for the reply,
Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

yikes!!! good catch, thanx.

I have also checked with our testing department and that last version of Vegas that we checked was Vegas Video 6, and that did work OK with .m2t files, except that TC was not supported. But Sony had told us this was a known issue with HDV in Vegas.
Matt

Well Matt, I just did some more tests with Vegas 6 and I discovered that even Vegas 6 is not 100% seamless. I had been looking at the video so much that I forgot to look at the audio.

There is a drop-out in the audio at the end of the first clip. If this should happen with an important recording of music or speech, then this would be a disaster.

Creating a patch from tape to fill this gap is time consuming and unacceptable. And if there just happens to be a dropout in the tape at this point then a portion of the recording is lost.

I tried to see if I could load the clips into Vegas 6, save the project and then load it into Vegas 7 as a work-around. This did not work as Vegas 7 still dropped the frames at the end of clip one. Rendering a small portion of the video to fill in the video gap and then load into Vegas 7 doesn't work because there is the audio drop-out. It is also quite time consuming.

Matt, it really looks like the bottom line is that it is not possible to split HDV files and then combine them on an NLE time-line successfuly. At least not with Vegas.

What severely bothers me is on another forum you stated that, "All FS models are based on the FAT32 disk format, which for us is a 2GB max file size. There is no way of avoiding this, but recordings will automatically create a new clip at the boundary without dropping any frames."

I replied and asked you "Why is there no way of avoiding this?" And you have not answered my question.

Well, Matt, I really don't know what to say. Your lack of response to my question about NTFS causes me to have serious doubts if Focus Enhancements is really interested in solving this and other problems.

Sorry Matt, but my patience with this issue is getting razor thin.

Whatever the case, we need regular dialog if this and other problems are going to be solved.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

I believe one of the problems with NTFS is Mac compatibility. FAT32 is Mac compatible.

I believe one of the problems with NTFS is Mac compatibility. FAT32 is Mac compatible.

As I said previously, the option of formatting the hard drive using FAT32 would still be there.

The way it would work is, when one wants to format the hard drive there would be an extra dialog as to if they want to format using FAT32 or NTFS. The user makes their choice according to what they want or need.

The unit would then create split files with FAT32 and one large file with NTFS. Of course, even with NTFS there would be multiple files when the user starts and stops the recordings.

This added flexibility would help solve problems that some are having with split files and provide one large file for those who want it. Also for those who need the FAT32 compatibility across platforms, they would have the option they need as well.

The current FAT32 only, does not allow for flexibilty and does not help solve the problems that some are having.

NTFS should be an option not instead of FAT32.

A simple solution to a host of problems and the added flexibility that users would appreciate. So why not?

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

I don't disagree with you that flexibility would be a good thing. But I'm wondering if there are technological reasons why they couldn't implement both in the same unit.

I don't disagree with you that flexibility would be a good thing. But I'm wondering if there are technological reasons why they couldn't implement both in the same unit.

I sincerely doubt if there is a technological reason why they couldn't implement both on the same unit. After-all, both can be implemented on my computer with Windows XP. I know they are not quite the same thing but still, I sincerely doubt if there is any technological reason why it can't be done on the same unit.

Note: I am not talking about both formats at the same time but a choice of one or the other at a time.

I am wondering if there is a financial reason such as maybe they would have to pay royalties to be allowed to use NTFS. Would they have to pay royalties to Microsoft? Another company? Their lack of an adequate reply is what bothers me a lot.

Whatever, the FS-4 HD is not as it is advertised to be when it comes to HDV. Bottom line is, Focus Enhancements needs to provide a solution to this and other problems associated with HDV and the FS-4 HD/FS-4 Pro HD or they need to change their advertising and provide a refund of $300.00 to those who bought the HD unit as per the price of the HD upgrade.

LOL, I wouldn't hold my breath about a $300.00 refund but there needs to be solutions to the problems. I have suggested the option of allowing NTFS as a solution to the split file problem and to allow a much greater flexibility in the use of the FS-4 HD.

I sincerely wish there was more dialog from them concerning the issues and suggestions to solve them.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

probably just a license problem (too expensive ?)

It seems there must be some reason for it because (if I'm not mistaken) all of these types of devices, regardless of the company, are FAT32.

Hi Danny,

I am just reporting what our test department has found when using Vegas Video 6 and FS-4 HD with m2t files. I have read your thread and seen the issue you have reported and will log it as a bug. I believe that you have also spoken with tech support and they have logged this bug with engineering.

As far as disk formats are concerned, we originally choose FAT32 with FS because at the time, it was the only disk format that was compatible with Windows and the Mac. Selecting NTFS would have meant we would have also needed an HFS+ version for Mac users which would involve dual development. Getting the FS Operating System and Application to run on a different disk format is not a trivial task.

Hope that helps,

Matt

Hi Danny,

I am just reporting what our test department has found when using Vegas Video 6 and FS-4 HD with m2t files. I have read your thread and seen the issue you have reported and will log it as a bug. I believe that you have also spoken with tech support and they have logged this bug with engineering.

As far as disk formats are concerned, we originally choose FAT32 with FS because at the time, it was the only disk format that was compatible with Windows and the Mac. Selecting NTFS would have meant we would have also needed an HFS+ version for Mac users which would involve dual development. Getting the FS Operating System and Application to run on a different disk format is not a trivial task.

Hope that helps,

Matt

So Matt, what do you think of the idea of formatting the hard drive to be NTFS for Windows and FAT32 for the Mac?

Seems like that would not involve dual development and then you would not need the HFS+ for the Mac.

Allow the option and give Windows users what they need and the Mac users what they need. Right?

Question, are there any problems with the file splitting for those who use the Mac and also use QuickTime for HD? If not then the FAT32 would be fine for the Mac and the NTFS would be fine for Windows.

Meanwhile, how else would the split file problem be fixed for Windows?

I am getting ready to go to the theater tonight and do a test recording in HDV. I will let you know what the results are later.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

I'm speculating again (something that is probably a little risky!), Danny, but if I'm reading what Matt is saying correctly, I think there would have to be some tyupe of hardware difference and that would require two separate units. And that would increase manufacturing costs for FE.

I'm speculating again (something that is probably a little risky!), Danny, but if I'm reading what Matt is saying correctly, I think there would have to be some tyupe of hardware difference and that would require two separate units. And that would increase manufacturing costs for FE.


Actually it is a platform problem, PC vs Mac. The problem is, in the early days of the FS models Macs could only read FAT32 not NTFS. According to what I have found on Apple.com the later versions of Mac Os will read an NTFS volume but not write to it. The purpose of the FS is to be read from only anyway so it would seem that going to NTFS now should no longer be a problem. Google searches brought up issues that those with Macs had with NTFS but most of those were dated back to 2003. Those who use Macs can explain all of this much better than I can.


Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

Hi Danny,

I wish it was as simple as just doing an option to create a FAT32 format or an NTFS (or even HFS+) for that matter. FS products have an operating system (just like a computer) that is designed to work with a particular disk format . In the case of FS, that format is FAT32 and it would be extremely difficult and very time consuming to implement support for other disk formats. Our policy is to only support disk formats that are supported for read/write on the Mac and Windows platform.

As for Vegas issue you have reported, we are looking into it.

Hope that helps.

Matt

Hi Danny,

I wish it was as simple as just doing an option to create a FAT32 format or an NTFS (or even HFS+) for that matter. FS products have an operating system (just like a computer) that is designed to work with a particular disk format . In the case of FS, that format is FAT32 and it would be extremely difficult and very time consuming to implement support for other disk formats. Our policy is to only support disk formats that are supported for read/write on the Mac and Windows platform.

As for Vegas issue you have reported, we are looking into it.

Hope that helps.

Matt

One reason why I was harping on NTFS so much is that it seems like it should have been an easy solution. Another reason is that I prefer to work with one long file instead of a bunch of little files. I don't understand why it should be extremely difficult to do but if it is, then it is.

So much for NTFS...

I have a question about the FAT32. Why the 2 gig limit instead of 4 gig? Will the Mac read a drive formatted using FAT32 with 4 gig files? At least with a 4 gig limit there wouldn't need to be as many blasted files to deal with.

It seems like the FS-4 HD is being more limited than it really needs to be by using 2 gig instead of 4 gig files.

As for the Vegas issues, how would it be possible to create split HDV files that can be loaded into Vegas and still be seamless? That is something Focus Enhancements technicians will have to figure out.

Problem is, not only would they have to solve the problem for Vegas but do so in such a way as not to cause problems for other NLE's. Seems like that could end up being more difficult than what it would be to dump the FAT32 and redo the whole thing for NTFS.

Whatever the case may be, the ability of the FS-4 HD to work with HDV has proven to be a whole lot more difficult than what was originally anticipated. I hope a fix for all of the issues will be available soon.

I captured HDV from tapes I recorded yesterday at the theater. The FS-4 HD stayed home. Bottom line is, that is NOT what I bought the FS-4 HD for.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

I have a question about the FAT32. Why the 2 gig limit instead of 4 gig? Will the Mac read a drive formatted using FAT32 with 4 gig files? At least with a 4 gig limit there wouldn't need to be as many blasted files to deal with.


IIRC, the issue is with the FAT32 filesystem itself being limited to maximum file sizes of 2G. I never had a file that big on a Win98 system, but everything I've read indicates that the file size is a limitation of the file system, and not of the operating system reading the file (although the OS would be forced to respect the limit upon writing...).

Linux has NTFS access, so I doubt that Focus would face license issues (unless they licensed an official version with MS support built in, maybe). The file system specs are "open" (as much as MS will open anything), to the best of my knowledge.

Depending on the quality of throughput, I would tend to want to abstract the file system from the operating application. Either have pluggable modules (a la Linux), or have a layer sitting between the FS4 system and the hard drive, that sits on top of the file system type driver. The driver could be replacable in ROM, or maybe multiple drivers available with the filesystem abstract layer being flagged in config for which driver to use. Or it could auto-detect the file system type.

Anyhow, if engineered from the git-go to be modular WRT file systems (kinda like Linux...), then all you need is the filesystem driver and a selection dialog for the user to choose a disk's filesystem. However, if the FS4 has not been engineered to account for that modularity, then re-engineering the FS4 may not provide any return on investment (or enough of one) to make it worthwhile. HOWEVER, it's possible that an FS5 might could include such a capability (hint hint).

Filesystems aren't "hard", but maybe FS4 has hardware limitations limiting the software ability?

Just my $.02....

Thanks
Matt V.

"IIRC, the issue is with the FAT32 filesystem itself being limited to maximum file sizes of 2G. "

Not so. FAT32 has a limit of 4 gig. FAT16 had the limit of 2 gig.

The FS-4 HD is either not making full use of FAT32 or it is actually FAT16.

I did a Google search and found quite a number of sites that confirm what I have just said. Most notable is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table

There is a chart that shows the file sizes of FAT12, FAT16 and FAT32. FAT12 has a limit of 32MB, FAT16 has a limit of 2GB and FAT32 has a limit of 4GB.

So, if the FS-4 HD has a file system of FAT32, then why is it being limited to 2GB instead of 4GB?

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

I'm with you in your wishes for NTSC or larger file sizes, Danny. The plain fact is however, the FAT file size is a problem only programmers must understand. I've owned several video capture drives, including ADS and citidisk. They all use a FAT32 file system. In fact, I've reformatted several of my older ADS video drives to FAT32 via Windoze XP, because there is no format utility provided with those disk solutions.

Your request for a disk format that supports files >2GB (NTFS or other) has been noted. As for the Vegas issue, we are looking into it and will post more news here when available.

Matt

Your request for a disk format that supports files >2GB (NTFS or other) has been noted. As for the Vegas issue, we are looking into it and will post more news here when available.

Matt

Thanks much Matt.

On the positive side of things, the FS-4 HD works quite well with SD (even though I don't like the split files) and the files transfer somewhat faster than I thought they would. Most of the problems I have seen reported are HDV related. Either time-code related and/or long GOP related. In this case, GOP stands for Groups Of Problems. Grin...

Looks like HDV turned out to be a whole lot more difficult to deal with than what Focus Enhancements anticipated. It seems to have a lot to do with how the different NLE's handle the files, especially the files that have been split. This is why I feel it is important to utilize NTFS as part of the solution and no longer split the files.

Seems that what you do to fix things with one NLE would break things for another NLE and/or make things so complicated that the software/firmware code would get too bloated. Also future changes, updates and upgrades to the various NLE's would re-complicate/re-break things.

I am looking for a solution that would not only solve the current problems but also help prevent future problems as well.

I'd hate to see the code get all bloated up with patches and bandages only to get re-broken with the next change in an NLE. As an example, Vegas 6 already has a crack in it and Vegas 7 is broken when it comes to handling the files created by the FS-4 HD. What will happen with Vegas 8 or even the next update? More of the same?

While NTFS is not a simple fix afterall, I don't think there is a simple fix for FAT32 either. And trying to fix for FAT32 will only mean future problems.

So my point is, lets get it right now and avoid having to deal with this again in the future.

Sincerely,
Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

Danny,

I know this is an FS forum here but I would suggest looking into nnovia, their new QC deck has both fat32 and ntfs among other really cool consumer desired options.

I would say that when a company tells you what they 'can' do rather than listens to what they need to do to keep growing their customers, they ought not be your company of choice.

NTFS is the file system that replaced fat32, the DTEs that replace these current companies will utilize that newer file system I'm sure.

Problem is I think you bought too early and possibly from the wrong company for your needs.

Danny,

I know this is an FS forum here but I would suggest looking into nnovia, their new QC deck has both fat32 and ntfs among other really cool consumer desired options.

I would say that when a company tells you what they 'can' do rather than listens to what they need to do to keep growing their customers, they ought not be your company of choice.

NTFS is the file system that replaced fat32, the DTEs that replace these current companies will utilize that newer file system I'm sure.

Problem is I think you bought too early and possibly from the wrong company for your needs.

At $1898.95 (B&H) their prices are a bit too high for me right now.

Thanks anyway,

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs