Has anyone been able to get any decent quality output out of Premiere Pro 2? If I compress a quicktime it looks like crap and the file is huge, compared to exporting from quicktime with the same exact settings. If I export a full res intermediate most of the time it's all jerky and strobe's. If I export a DVD straight from the timeline it just looks like complete crap. I'm selecting the highest quality setting in the DVD export dialog.

What settings are you guys using to get good quality?

Whoops, sorry guys. I thought I posted this in THIS forum.

Yeah I know what you mean, I could never get the Quicktime or WMV files small AND good quality from the timeline...I ended up going a roundabout way by exporting the timeline to an external encoder (Cinema Craft Encoder) by means of a frameserver (DebugMode Frameserver). This got me a good quality Mpeg2 file which I can use for the final dvd. I import this mpeg2 file back into PPro2 and export that as a WMV. It turns out far less blocky than doing the WMV from the original timeline and it more than halves the filesize. I wouldn't normally recompress like this for anything else, but since it's being downscaled for the web anyway it dosen't really matter.
PPro2 uses Mainconcept Encoder for its dvd and Mpeg2 creation...personally I think it's pants and takes far too long.
You can also get Canopus Procoder 2 which can create mpeg's, wmv, realmedia, quicktime etc.. it's not bad either

I've never been able to get Premiere to match the quality of Sorenson Squeeze or Quicktime Pro. And I don't know anyone who has.

Although I do get nice results when encoding to mpeg-2 for dvd.

Although I do get nice results when encoding to mpeg-2 for dvd.
What settings are you using? Are you working with HDV then down convert to SD for DVD? How are you getting good quality?

I shoot SD. Depending on the project size, I usually use a 7mb CBR at highest quality. I occassionally use a 7mb VBR if the project is huge. I usually shoot 24p so I export progressive. Then I import in Encore to author my DVD. For web distribution, I export either an uncompressed .mov or .avi, and encode in Sorenson squeeze.

I just did a test to compare output quality from Vegas 7 and my test export to NTSC DVD was a billion times better than PP2.

Wow, a billion times better seems like a LOT!
;-)

Gene, could you post full-rez screen shots and indicate the encoder settings so we can all see the results? Personally, I'm betting that at the same bit rate it's no more than a mere thousand times better! But it would be great to actually see a direct comparison.

Well maybe I was exaggerating a little bit. Maybe it's only about half a billion times better. ;)

Actually earlier I was getting ready to post some comparisons but I got caught up in a bunch of other pipeline issues. I'll post something soon though. Sit tight.

Comparison:
http://www.oblivionfilms.com/misc/PP2_V7_DVD_comparison.png

Settings:
http://www.oblivionfilms.com/misc/PP2_settings
http://www.oblivionfilms.com/misc/V7_settings.png

That's "billions" imo

That is a significant difference I'll agree! I haven't output a lot of dvd mpg material from Premiere Pro2 but I know that when I used PPro 1.5 I never had that poor of results.

Definite difference; thanks for posting those!

I just did a quick test, exported mpeg-2 from Vegas and Premiere, same settings. Then imported into Premiere, exported a tiff, and brought that into photoshop. I can't for the life of me see any difference in the two pics. I'm not sure why you're seeing such noticeable differences. Your Vegas export is definitely superior to the one from Premiere. I'm going to keep experimenting.

If yours are both similar... are they both bad or good? What settings did you use to export from PP2?

Thanks for experimenting btw.

I've been reading this discussion and don't understand it. How can Gene show such remarkable differences between Vegas and Premier Pro, while both programs use the same MainConcept engine for Encoding? What is happening?

I was wondering the same thing. My only thoughts about that are maybe they are different versions of the encoder? Vegas 7 is newer so maybe it also has a newer version of MainConcepts encoder. My other thought was that the settings are different somewhere... but I for the life of me cannot find what is causing it.

Of course... maybe it's PP2 doing something to the video before export. Hmm... soo many variables.

Still my main concern is with PP2 because I can't get ANY format to export with decent quality. Quicktimes are absolute crap and WMV's are pretty bad too, even with the same settings exported from quicktime pro and windows media encoder.

In my test I made sure my settings were the same as Gene's. There's no doubt in my mind that Adobe's media encoder stinks for exporting quicktime, or Windows media. If I use the same settings, or as close as possible, a file exported from sorenson squeeze, or even quicktime pro, is leaps and bounds (Billions) above than the comparable sized adobe exported file. But the mpeg-2 files looked the same. And the quality of my DVD's are excellent, and very close to the original footage. I'll keep experimenting, because if I can get a better quality export using Vegas then I'll export my shorter projects with that. Whatever works best. :)

Kevin, would you mind posting some examples? And maybe a screen grab of the settings used like I did?

Quicktime export from Adobe is notoriously bad. No question about it. Sorenson is far better. But my question was more about the MPEG2-DVD encoding side. In other posts people have asked about the various encoders they can use and there is a long list of them, Procoder, AME, CCE, TMPGEnc, etc.

I would be interested in hearing about the qualities of these in comparison to each other. Procoder has a good reputation in terms of quality, but also compatibility problems with Encore, some swear by CCE, others prefer TMPGEnc.
So, what would deliver optimal results at let's say CBR 7 and dual pass VBR, min @ 3, average @ 6 and max @ 8.5?

Any ideas?

Quicktime export from Adobe is notoriously bad. No question about it. Sorenson is far better. But my question was more about the MPEG2-DVD encoding side. In other posts people have asked about the various encoders they can use and there is a long list of them, Procoder, AME, CCE, TMPGEnc, etc.

I would be interested in hearing about the qualities of these in comparison to each other. Procoder has a good reputation in terms of quality, but also compatibility problems with Encore, some swear by CCE, others prefer TMPGEnc.
So, what would deliver optimal results at let's say CBR 7 and dual pass VBR, min @ 3, average @ 6 and max @ 8.5?

Any ideas?
Hijack someone else's thread.

I only care about PP2 and Vegas7 DVD export in this thread. If PP2 can't get the quality up with settings then it's something that I will get on Adobe's ass about.

I have found PPro2 export useless. All formats. Really stinks.
My work flow includes two other programs. I'm editing PROHD so I use Aspect HD(the aspect avi files are fantastic). I export as SD wide screen at 23.97 fps progressive. I import into Encore and make my DVD there. I am still not too happy with the results from encore, but at least it looks better than what I got from PPro2. I wish I knew of a good program that would import M2t files and export for DVD and the final product would look fantastic. I guess this is a very tall order for Adobe. I kinda feel ripped off buying CS 2 Pro. The applications don't perform as advertised for HD and sounds like SD isn't any better.
Phooey!
Jon

Generally speaking, when a software does everything, it doesn't do anything right; the same I think is true for hardware. Take my Moto Razr cellphone for example... it takes pictures, browses the internet, etc, etc... but the audio quality is far below my old Nokia 6340i. I don't care much about all the gizmos on it, I want a superior PHONE, hello, Moto?!

So we're better off using a separate piece of software for specific tasks. Premiere for editing, a compression software for compressing, Encore for DVD authoring and so forth. And yes, Squeeze is a good compression software!

Just my $0.02...

Dude, Adobe doesn't even have an intermediate codec to go between it's OWN applications! Adobe is nothing more than photoshop for me these days. It's their only application that's worth a damn, and even that needs improvements.

If you can't export out of PP2 then what good is it? That's how I see it.

I for one will be looking into FCP for my next project.....
Jon

Here's a quick test I did. Exported mpeg-2 from Premiere and Vegas. Then re-imported into Premiere to save a tiff. Same settings in both programs, VBR 2-pass, min-3, target-6, max-8. And there's a nice red shirt to show off some dv artifacting. Vegas handles the red better than Premiere, but the footage is a bit darker, I've lost a lot of info in the shadows of the Vegas export. The Premiere export looks the same as the original with the exception of the jaggies along the red shirt. It's a toss up. I think I'll start using Windows Movie Maker.

http://www.stickypod.com/videos/data/579/Export_test.jpg

Thanks for posting that information, Kevin. Interesting.

Thanks for the image Kevin. I still see quite a bit of a difference between them though. The difference isn't quite as much as mine was but if you look around her collar and sleeve you can see it falling apart.

Try saving a frame from each video from Media Player Classic instead of re-importing your footage into premiere to export a tiff.

Jon: Yeah I'm already on it. I just have to finish up a promo video with this turd. It really is so much better... not to mention the massive support Apple gets from the industry. All the cool hardware is made for Apple.

There is an "issue" with PP2 and Mpeg export but it mainly applies to 24P footage. I generally use the Adobe Media encoder but lock it at 7mbps CBR and I get terrific results, nothing like what I see in either of these tests. For 24P footage, I encode from PP1.5, again, with terrific results.

There are SO many variables in encoding that you often are not comparing apples to apples, one setting clicked here or a GOP value different here and there are very obvious differences. I dont recommend letting your variable bit rate encodings having such a low minimum, I generally keep EVERYTHING at 6mbps or above,




ash =o)

I've tried the second compression preset down from the top which is 16:9 high quality 7mbps CBR and it's crap. Are you using that preset for a base and then tweaking the settings?

Hi Gene,

Going back to the EXPORT Setting which you have posted a picture of, I noticed that on the Ppro, the Deinterlace square is ticked (top left hand corner) whereas on the Vegas the footage is exported as interlaced.

Perhaps you can untick the square on the Ppro. It could explain the difference in output.

As both Vegas and Ppro use the same Encoder "Mainconcept" so I see no reason for the difference in export quality.

good-luck

Actually that Deinterlace option is just for the preview window. If you look on the right side you will see that Lower is selected in the field order option.

Good eye though.

I'm having the same problems with PP2. Everything in my preview monitor looks great. Great clarity and color. But once a export to DVD with a 1 pass CBR, highest quality 7mb dvd quality, throw that into a dvd player hooked up to the same monitor my output literally looks like crap. The picture is soft and washed-out. If it is a close-up shot of something the results aren't as bad, but in a wide-angle picture everything is very noticably blurry.

I have just ran through a whole slew of winxp tweeks which I know will have zero effect on my encoded mpeg2 quality-wise. But I have a custom built system so I'm trying to narrow it in. So I'll continue testing tomorrow along with looking into getting a good 3rd party encoder to see if this fixes my results.

I know this is a open-ended question, but does anyone know what is the best program for encoding avi to mpeg2? Money is no object to have the same quality video that I see on my timeline exported to my DVDs. I'll be the guinney*pig for everyone. :)

I've heard that this one is very good:

http://www.cinemacraft.com/eng/sp.html

It's pretty pricey too. You can request a trial version and check for yourself. The good thing is that it can be used from PPro timeline.

I second Bart's advice - try Cinema Craft. Still, your problems do not originate with the MainConcept encoder in my opinion... so another encoder may or may not solve them. MainConcept may not be the top of the world, but it's not the worst either - I have friends releasing full lenght feature videos encoding directly from Premiere.

Ok, I'm pretty confident that I have found the solution. When go to your encoding settings, check under the "Basic Video Settings" and you see the "Field Order" drop-down. I believe the setting of "Lower" is to blame. I for one have never messed with this setting assuming that since I had picked 4x3 High Quality 5.0, that "Lower" was the proper selection. Nope. I changed the Field Order to "none(Progressive)" and now my exported DVDs look great. Just like from the timeline.

I also tried the Field Order setting of "Upper" and my DVD looked exactly like when "Lower" was selected, blurry. Can anyone else confirm? I don't know why there would be Lower and Upper settings or even why Lower would be the default. Anywho, everything is looking good.

But now you're messing with standards. Lower field first is the NTSC standard. HDV is upper first. Changing this to progressive isn't really a fix, even though I wish it was.

Well maybe so. But as a test I went into Adobe Media Encode, selected my format as MPEG, then selected NTSF generic as my format. Then went down and changed VBR to CBR and then changed the Mpbs from 6.0 to 7.0 to resemble that of a burned DVD.

I then encoded my 3:45 sec. videoclip in both Field Order Lower and also Field Order none(Progressive). I can see a noticable difference between the two and more interestingly they both came out to be 195 megabytes each. No change in file size but a huge change visually.

Hope it helps some.

Well maybe so. But as a test I went into Adobe Media Encode, selected my format as MPEG, then selected NTSF generic as my format. Then went down and changed VBR to CBR and then changed the Mpbs from 6.0 to 7.0 to resemble that of a burned DVD.

I then encoded my 3:45 sec. videoclip in both Field Order Lower and also Field Order none(Progressive). I can see a noticable difference between the two and more interestingly they both came out to be 195 megabytes each. No change in file size but a huge change visually.

Hope it helps some.

Export the file as an AVI from the timeline, get a copy of Canopus Procoder Express (much cheaper and just as functional as the big version) run Procoder on your AVI and pick the format that you desire, you'll be very pleased, import that file into your DVD software (in my case Sony DVD Arch) and see if you're getting the results you desire.

I have been running into these problems for as long as Premier Pro has been out and stopped exporting using their encoder after about 2 days and the lackluster results you get. There are some other workflows that you can experiment with, but in the end you're going to find that a 50 dollar add on software program such as ProCoder or TMPGenc will give you the exact results that you're looking for consistently each and every time.

BTW, my typical workflow is PPRO2.0 to AVI to TMPGenc to Sony DVD Arch and to the customer, for my HDV projects, it's PPro2.0 with Aspect HD to a Cineform AVI to Procoder to MPEG to Architech so only a slight mod to work on the HDV files.

In short however you're right, AMC is notoriously horrid, cumbersome and unreliable for solid production.

Thanks for your screen caps, excellent illustration of your frustration.

ml

If I export a DVD straight from the timeline it just looks like complete crap. I'm selecting the highest quality setting in the DVD export dialog.

What settings are you guys using to get good quality?

Hi Gene,

Just to make sure, are you Exporting to "DVD" or "Adobe Media Encoder (AME) "?.

I've compared the two and there is quite a difference, even if the settings are exactly the same. AME is much better.

Hi Gene,

Just to make sure, are you Exporting to "DVD" or "Adobe Media Encoder (AME) "?.

I've compared the two and there is quite a difference, even if the settings are exactly the same. AME is much better.
I've been using the "export to DVD" and then exporting to a folder instead of a disk.

I'll do some more tests in a bit.

Actually that Deinterlace option is just for the preview window. If you look on the right side you will see that Lower is selected in the field order option.

Good eye though.
I'm pretty sure the Deinterlace option does in fact deinterlace the exported video file. The preview window is to show you the result of your selected options.

I for one will admit QuickTime exports have traditionally been poor quality - but that was due to the anemic QuickTime codecs. Now with the new QuickTime H.264 codec you can install the free QuickTime 7 Player and access the QuickTime H.264 codec within the Adobe Media Encoder. The one thing I will mention is that the bit rate slider is still very inaccurate when encoding to QuickTime in the Adobe Media Encoder. It's hard to believe they didn't fix such a basic bug considering they did a major rewrite of the Media Encoder for the new Production Studio.

Regarding Windows Media exports, I can't really say that I have seen noticeably superior results from Microsoft's standalone Windows Media Encoder than I have from Adobe Media Encoder.

So you haven't noticed the gamma/levels tweak out when exporting to H.264?

PPro 2.0 export is $h!tty!!!

Here is tried and true SIMPLE workflow that I've been using to get excellent DVD/WMV-HD results. Just so you guys know, I shoot everything in HDV so this may not apply to some of you SD guys.

-Shoot HDV -> HDVSPLIT
-Edit PPro 2.0 - edit from original m2ts only (never 2nd generation)
-Export 60i HDV m2t (Video Quality HIGH 5.0)

All you really need is Procoder.

The 60i HDV m2t will be interlaced (not a problem @ all), from this master file I:

1) ARCHIVE back to HDV Tape - Simple enuf

2) DVD -dump m2t into canpus proCoder -> DVDs 6-8 VBR Master Quality. Leave as interlaced. This will create the m2v and wav files that you can put into Encore for a BEAUTIFUL looking DVD. Colour space remain identical to original source IMO. The reason people complain about jaggies via this method is becuz they are viewing the DVD on a progressive device but without a de-interlacing filter applied. You will notice jaggies if playing via an progressive display without applying a de-interlacing filter (ie. on the computer). But when playing on a progressive dvd player on progressive display you'll have no noticible jaggies. Even on standard interlaced TV the results are beautiful.

Yes I have fiddled with the Cineform->VirtualDub->Tmpgenc workaround and it is too much work for nominal gains.

As an ultimate test, I've hooked up my hdv camcorder directly to my wvga (854x480) projector (100 inch screen), compared the output from watching down rezzed HDV (projector downrezzes 1080i from HDV camera), then downrezzed SD (in camera downrezzed), DVD created via the method above, there are honestly next to NO significant overall resolution differences that I can see.

3) WMV-HD - plug the m2t into procoder, I created my own 720p 5mbs constrained vbr preset (similar settings used via windows media encoder). Turn on adaptive de-interlacing filter as well as the audio filter to clean up any clipping and voila, solid 720p output where you can fit 2 hours of material on a single layer disc. I have been including this as an option for wedding videos that I have been doing and my clients are blown away @ the output.

I hope this helps!

Michael

So you haven't noticed the gamma/levels tweak out when exporting to H.264?
You mean the overall brightening of the image?

PPro 2.0 export is $h!tty!!!

Here is tried and true SIMPLE workflow that I've been using to get excellent DVD/WMV-HD results. Just so you guys know, I shoot everything in HDV so this may not apply to some of you SD guys.

<content edited>

I hope this helps!

Michael

Michael are there any changes in procoder that you have to do to any of the switches? I know that when i use it for some reason it seems to latch onto 4:3 as a default and I have to manually make some changes, using version 2.04 in Procoder (full version not express).

You mean the overall brightening of the image?
Basically yes.

Michael are there any changes in procoder that you have to do to any of the switches? I know that when i use it for some reason it seems to latch onto 4:3 as a default and I have to manually make some changes, using version 2.04 in Procoder (full version not express).

Michael, for mastering quality dvd in procoder you are right the ONLY thing I need to change is 16x9. I'm running ProCoder 2.0.

Burn a dvd via this method and give it a try on your projector (via progressive scan dvd player).

BTW Killer Gear you have there! I WISH i had a 955ee, im running a 930 and not running cineform, performance could definately be better!

Basically yes.
The brightening you see is the result of a bug in the QuickTime 7 Player (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=73197). There is nothing inherently wrong with Adobe Media Encoder's QuickTime H.264 export (nor with any other H.264 encoder, for that matter). Apple is aware of the problem. In the meantime, you can play H.264 videos in another player such as VLC media player (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/). You may even discover that you like it better than QuickTime. ;-)

Regardless of whatever bugs there are in the QuickTime 7 Player, H.264 remains an excellent codec.

What's wrong with exporting to progressive footage? I saw this mentioned earlier in thread and some of you said this was bad. (if footage is shot 720x480 @ 60i)? The quality looks much better then when selecting interlaced in tmpeg... is this the wrong setting to use?